FinalGamer posted:

Um...they're not, what slogans are you referring to can I see some evidence of this?

Cerv posted:

This is actually quite funny

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_571dffcae4b018a884dd1c64

OwlFancier posted:

Is it really hard to be a socialist without putting your foot in your gob about stuff that's pretty easy, I think, to not put your foot in your gob about?

quote:

“The Daily Mail used to hide behind that door,” he quips, pointing to the corner of the room, before standing up and taking exaggerated steps towards the door, softening his tread and lowering his voice conspiratorially.

“We were doing shadow cabinet. I told everyone else to keep talking,” he says, gesticulating animatedly behind him. “Then I pulled the door open like this,” he adds, stretching out his arm and yanking it back towards himself, before dissolving into a chuckle. “And they were all there on the ground listening in. I said: ‘If only I had a camera. Why don’t you lot clear off?’”

Forums Anti-Semite OwlFancier posted:

"I think the state of Israel should stop doing Judaism"

OwlFancier posted:

Yeah but like, how difficult is it to say "I think the state of Israel should stop doing war crimes on Palestinians, and also I don't like that it makes a concerted effort to conflate Zionism and Judaism because the two are absolutely not the same thing." without sounding like a lunatic?

John Mann posted:

To compound this egregious behaviour Livingstone alleged that ‘the Israeli lobby’ was out to get people.

Well I am part of no lobby and again the idea of a powerful outside Jewish influence mirrors the approach of the Nazis. This is why these comments were so outrageous.

Our party has a problem that it needs to face up to.

pointsofdata posted:

In case you thought it was all over:
http://order-order.com/2016/04/29/seumas-milne-praises-hamas/
That's from Seamus "Putin’s absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive" Milne

Tesseraction posted:

Depends on your views on if black people being allowed to vote is good or a tragic undermining of democracy.

pointsofdata posted:

In case you thought it was all over:
http://order-order.com/2016/04/29/seumas-milne-praises-hamas/
That's from Seamus "Putin’s absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive" Milne

jre posted:

Um they are ?

Extreme0 posted:

Spangly A posted:

Acknowledging the zionism/judaism conflation is the controversial bit

FinalGamer posted:

Um...they're not, what slogans are you referring to can I see some evidence of this?

pointsofdata posted:

In case you thought it was all over:
http://order-order.com/2016/04/29/seumas-milne-praises-hamas/
That's from Seamus "Putin’s absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive" Milne

Oberleutnant posted:

Best case scenario for that poster is some snp staffer wanted to rip it off and either didn't remember or didn't want to admit it was a ripiff of a tory poster. It's a good, snappy line for a political poster.

I can't believe anybody senior would do something that stupid knowingly. Feel free to quote this last bit out of context for every stupid thing a politician does any time soon.

FinalGamer posted:

Yeah um that's kind of what I was believing they were from their previous talks, especially when Scandinavia approached the SNP with potential offer to join their union on similar principles if we became independent.

Brown Moses posted:

This isn't a good look

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/726022726926868480

FinalGamer posted:

So...wait.

It's not JUST the SNP using it then, it's everybody using it, that just speaks of laziness and copying from everybody because nobody is gonna call the GREEN party of all people to be Thatcherite right, or even close to Tory agreements?! I mean considering how anti-Tory Nicola Sturgeon has been and was one of the few people to actually dare to badmouth about Thatcher in recent times next to...Mhairi Black, that's the only two people I can think of who actually had the balls to say she was a terrible person.

Soooo...I mean this is just a slogan everybody is ripping off, it's not really indicative of a subtle political alliance now is it? That's like if every single fast food company had "I'm Loving It", because it's not a copyrighted phrase (at least I think it's not, I know McD's tried ages ago to copyright it but I forget if they managed to or not).

I'm a little...confused about this, is this like some sort of "not all Jews are zionists but all zionists are Jews" kinda bullshit or is this something deeper than that?

I genuinely have no idea what a Zionist even is, I always thought it was just some kind of racist insult because of the kingdom of Zion. Because the only time I ever heard anyone say "zionist" or some variation were all racist anti-semitic people, usually white supremacists who ALWAYS use this word because it sounds a little classier and more politically affluent than "filthy Jewish scum" which is kind of what they're saying regardless.

Using the term honestly is just asking for trouble and I never trusted anyone who uses that phrase honestly. If someone is smart enough to understand the troubles of Israel Vs. Palestine, they can be smart enough to debate the entire thing without falling into anti-semitic rhetoric. You can hate things ABOUT Israel without hating Jewish people, the two should not be synonymous with each other.

I feel a lot of this comes from the fact people are incredibly ignorant about Israel and Palestine and are not instructed about the smaller particular details that permeate the entire conflict.

FinalGamer posted:

I'm a little...confused about this, is this like some sort of "not all Jews are zionists but all zionists are Jews" kinda bullshit or is this something deeper than that?

Tangerines posted:

We risk losing the ability for good posts to those immigrating from other threads. There just aren't enough good posts to go around!

Scikar posted:

It's best just not to use 'zionist' at all. People tend to either misunderstand you and think you're an antisemite, or they deliberately misinterpret you in order to dismiss you as an antisemite. Chances are good that you'll end up in a semantic argument about what 'zionist' really means to everyone involved which is a convenient distraction tool if the original discussion was about the latest terrible thing that Israel has done.

pointsofdata posted:

In case you thought it was all over:
http://order-order.com/2016/04/29/seumas-milne-praises-hamas/
That's from Seamus "Putin’s absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive" Milne

winegums posted:

This poo poo is staying in the news until Khan wins the London mayoral campaign isn't it? I can't help but wonder if it's related to trying to help out Zac Goldsmith somehow. Regardless, is this resonating with the public at all? Does anyone actually care? Antisemitism isn't the hot button topic here that it is in the states.

winegums posted:

This poo poo is staying in the news until Khan wins the London mayoral campaign isn't it? I can't help but wonder if it's related to trying to help out Zac Goldsmith somehow. Regardless, is this resonating with the public at all? Does anyone actually care? Antisemitism isn't the hot button topic here that it is in the states.

winegums posted:

This poo poo is staying in the news until Khan wins the London mayoral campaign isn't it? I can't help but wonder if it's related to trying to help out Zac Goldsmith somehow. Regardless, is this resonating with the public at all? Does anyone actually care? Antisemitism isn't the hot button topic here that it is in the states.

BBC News posted:

If Livingstone is expelled, not only will Jeremy Corbyn have lost an articulate high-profile ally,

Paxman posted:

As someone said earlier, a lot of people have little idea what antisemitism is or even what a Jew is really.

Prince John posted:

An independent enquiry into anti-semitism in the Labour party is being launched. I would hope that this would kick it out of the news for a few months, but presumably this means there will now be endless articles about who's being appointed to it...

OwlFancier posted:

Who's launching the enquiry?

FinalGamer posted:

I genuinely have no idea what a Zionist even is, I always thought it was just some kind of racist insult because of the kingdom of Zion. Because the only time I ever heard anyone say "zionist" or some variation were all racist anti-semitic people, usually white supremacists who ALWAYS use this word because it sounds a little classier and more politically affluent than "filthy Jewish scum" which is kind of what they're saying regardless.

Using the term honestly is just asking for trouble and I never trusted anyone who uses that phrase honestly. If someone is smart enough to understand the troubles of Israel Vs. Palestine, they can be smart enough to debate the entire thing without falling into anti-semitic rhetoric. You can hate things ABOUT Israel without hating Jewish people, the two should not be synonymous with each other.

I feel a lot of this comes from the fact people are incredibly ignorant about Israel and Palestine and are not instructed about the smaller particular details that permeate the entire conflict.

quote:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked public uproar when on Tuesday he claimed that the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the one who planted the idea of the extermination of European Jewry in Adolf Hitler's mind. The Nazi ruler, Netanyahu said, had no intention of killing the Jews, but only to expel them.

In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: "What should I do with them?" and the mufti replied: "Burn them."

World Zionist Union posted:

The World Zionist Organization is committed to promoting Zionism & the Zionist idea and the Zionist enterprise through Israel Education as vital and positive elements of contemporary Jewish life, in accordance with the principles articulated in the Jerusalem Program. This manifesto is dedicated to instilling the centrality of Israel and Jerusalem its capital deep within Jewish consciousness, encouraging the return to Zion, fashioning an exemplary society in the Jewish state, expanding Zionist education including Hebrew language instruction, settling the land, and combating Anti-Semitism.

...

Zionism aims at establishing for the Jewish people a legally assured home in Eretz Yisrael. To achieve this purpose, the following means shall be employed:

Promoting the settlement of Jewish farmers, artisans, and tradesmen inPalestine.
Organizing and uniting the whole of Jewry through effective local and international means in accordance with the laws of each country.
Strengthening of the Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness though Israel education with shlichim.
Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to achieve the goals of Zionism.

Hoops posted:

People know what Jews are.

I think you might be going overboard with this one.

Statement on “Labour’s problem with antisemitism” posted:

From the Jewish Socialists’ Group

Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism.

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews.

Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds.

Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.

A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.

The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.

The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:

• The Conservative Party

• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources

• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community

• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as “a swarm” and “a bunch of migrants”. The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.

We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism.

OwlFancier posted:

Can we hire the Jewish Socialists' Group to do PR for labour full time?