|
Yukitsu posted:Being able to execute on something is in pretty much the only difference between playing just for fun, theory crafting and trying to play something competitively. No when the execution barrier is lowered (via Tac Cog for example), what matters is the thinking behind the execution that matters. Execution being more important the strategy you're trying to execute is an artifact of early RTS game design where they didn't have good enough automation and UI yet. The better UI and automation -the more important thinking becomes relative to fast clicking. You can see that principle in action when you compare strategy heavy RTT and RTS games like Supreme Commander or Wargame with a micro and pointless non-automation (non-autocast larva inject is a prime example) heavy one like Starcraft. Your definition of what competitive means is simply too narrow - micro means competitive because you know competitive games defined by micro. A circular argument.
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2016 23:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 13:07 |
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:No when the execution barrier is lowered (via Tac Cog for example), what matters is the thinking behind the execution that matters.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2016 23:08
|
|
|
Obstacle2 posted:Ranked is a joke as long as Eldar are still in the state they currently are in. According to the devblog stability patching is first on the list of things to do and then Eldar rebalancing followed by Chaos and Orks. Ranked matches will be some time off I'd imagine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2016 23:09
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:No when the execution barrier is lowered (via Tac Cog for example), what matters is the thinking behind the execution that matters. Execution being more important the strategy you're trying to execute is an artifact of early RTS game design where they didn't have good enough automation and UI yet. Well, no, it's being able to plan quickly and then execute that plan that is in most competitions. Like, football has a lot of strategy, the coach thinks a lot about what plan and so on but the players then have to execute that plan. It's not a one or the other thing, it's all of those things combined that are behind a lot of competitive games. Some are pure execution, some are pure thinking but most have elements of both. Relying on more skill, not less is usually something more common in competition, even if it's not something that improves the game. And really it's not that narrow a differentiation. It's not a definition really but it is the only difference between playing a game competitively or simply playing it for fun or to see how something works with theoretical optimal actions. And again, why are you so against having an environment with it and another without it? Yukitsu fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Apr 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2016 23:13
|
|
|
I can kill the big scary battleship in turn 15 or I can shoot down the transports. Having trouble doing both. been trying to get 2 LC on the transports and coming up 1 kill shy. 2 cruisers is enough to waste the BS but it's a bit phyrric. Annoying. I will have a perfect record.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2016 23:23
|
|
|
I was getting irritated about the tooltips not having hotkeys so I threw this together. Thoughts?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 00:10
|
|
|
The best poo poo is someone hitting taccog while trying to save a ship that cannot be saved. Instead we both get to watch his ship die in slowmo while you know hes likely raging.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 00:33
|
|
|
Man, I wish Dark Eldar had a space presence beyond two godawful models. I am 100% on board with Tau and Tyranids but I want dark lance spam in space with spiky S&M torture elves. That said, I'm not sure how they'd implement them beyond something closer to Chaos than the Corsairs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 00:39
|
|
|
Ork Gunz have recieved a buff that I hadn't noticed until now. They used to vary the number of shots they did up or down by 50%. The new tooltips says the number of shots can be halved or doubled so down 50% or up 100%. Now a gunz will output 2-4-8 damage every 2 seconds instead of 2-4-6. I don't know if the range is gradual between 2 and 8 shots or always goes to the maximum variance.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 00:47
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:The better UI and automation -the more important thinking becomes relative to fast clicking. You can see that principle in action when you compare strategy heavy RTT and RTS games like Supreme Commander or Wargame with a micro and pointless non-automation (non-autocast larva inject is a prime example) heavy one like Starcraft. and the "slow strategy thinking games" or whatever are loving niche as hell with no competitive scene, starcraft is dying, and the only strategy game people give a gently caress about is the one where they intensely micro a very limited number of units without a tactical slo mo or pause
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 00:48
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:It's not like Tac Cog is literally the most praised feature they've got from most of the reviews. Oh wait, it is. Tac Cog is fantastic and removing it from competitive matches is the single worst decision the devs have made. It's is completely giving in to whiny forum babies (it reminds me a lot of Blizzard walking back their incredibly good anti-pointles-micro mechanics 2 weeks before the release of SC2-3 because their forums whined too much, despite the pro players supporting them). It's still annoying when other people use it when I don't (and have no interest in doing so) so  Also you're saying that SC2 with less micro would be a better game on the pro scene which I find dubious but am admittedly uneducated about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 00:59
|
|
|
Nickiepoo posted:It's still annoying when other people use it when I don't (and have no interest in doing so) so That's not at all what he's saying, he's saying that equating 'competitive' with 'micro heavy' is a silly way of thinking about things. Micro is a crucial aspect of Starcraft's competitive aspect, but it isn't something every strategy game needs to have a competitive scene.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:07
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:Micro is a crucial aspect of Starcraft's competitive aspect, but it isn't something every strategy game needs to have a competitive scene. Yes it is, with no micro there is nothing competitive about a strategy game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:13
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:That's not at all what he's saying, he's saying that equating 'competitive' with 'micro heavy' is a silly way of thinking about things. Micro is a crucial aspect of Starcraft's competitive aspect, but it isn't something every strategy game needs to have a competitive scene. Yeah, I was just talking about his specific comment on SC2 though. I watched a SC2 game once and the commentators went crazy over perfectly timed lava injects so idk man, competitive RTSs are weird. But are there even any seriously competitive RTSs out there that aren't SC2? To be clear I really like the fact that Gothic isn't SC2, but I feel like it's already the right speed that someone pressing a button so that they can micro-warp away from a torpedo hit at the last split second is annoying. I know he's just opportunity cost himself but blah blah I'm just bitter.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:17
|
|
|
They should be releasing campaigns with the tau/nids to keep the game alive. MP is in no way robust enough to last half a year of dev time to add a single race that you'll just play in MP. Throw out some chaos/ork/eldar campaign DLC's between now and the release of tau then try to release a large campaign for the nids that is playable by tau/nids. I'd drop $15 to play as chaos during the gothic war, reuse as much content as you can to flesh out the campaign. Throw in some free smaller 10-15 mission campaigns with some other races to keep everyone busy with some replayability until you drop new races. Once you drop the tau/nids then focus on a large soulstorm/DoW2 style campaign where you can use all the races. Span multiple systems with a nid hive fleet coming in, include the usual plot devices for having all of the races there. Focus on the random mission aspect so you can advance the plot or just endlessly fight if you want.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:22
|
|
|
Yeah lotta words there but listen basically everything you suggested is a lot more work than what they've announced, not less, so it's pretty silly to expect it to come between now and then. Like it's foolish to even propose it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:That's not at all what he's saying, he's saying that equating 'competitive' with 'micro heavy' is a silly way of thinking about things. Micro is a crucial aspect of Starcraft's competitive aspect, but it isn't something every strategy game needs to have a competitive scene. Micro absolutely is necessary. Micro isn't management tasks like larva injects (which in bfg might be equivalent to making sure you are always using orders when they're available and needed and not letting the skills have unnecessary downtime) Micro is everything you do to win from resource management to positioning, which you have to do in real time without pauses or slowdowns. The better you are, the more units/skills/abilities whatever you can effectively control without being overwhelmed by the amount of options. It's something the players have and develop, not something built into the game design by the developers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:36
|
|
|
god, just go and play soulstorm, for gently caress sake
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:37
|
|
|
Obstacle2 posted:Yes it is, with no micro there is nothing competitive about a strategy game. loving noobs playing go can't handle a real competitive game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:46
|
|
|
Brick Dust Otis posted:god, just go and play soulstorm, for gently caress sake Suggesting Soulstorm instead of Dark Crusade. A shameful gamer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:49
|
|
|
Ultimate Apocalypse mod only works with soulstorm
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 01:55
|
|
|
Obstacle2 posted:Yes it is, with no micro there is nothing competitive about a strategy game. You're right. A competitive game simply requires micro. Can you imagine a game with an elo rating system and no micro? Preposterous!
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:14
|
|
|
NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Ultimate Apocalypse mod only works with soulstorm but UA is for skirmish and MP only. the mod devs note you can try the SP campaign but it's at your own risk and nothing is balanced for it. Up Circle posted:Micro absolutely is necessary. Micro isn't management tasks like larva injects (which in bfg might be equivalent to making sure you are always using orders when they're available and needed and not letting the skills have unnecessary downtime) Micro is everything you do to win from resource management to positioning, which you have to do in real time without pauses or slowdowns. The better you are, the more units/skills/abilities whatever you can effectively control without being overwhelmed by the amount of options. It's something the players have and develop, not something built into the game design by the developers. micro is a gatekeeper, nothing more. it's like complicated move sets and combos in fighting games--once you and your opponent have mastered them, the contest shifts back to strategy. might as well cut out the middleman here given the already limited audience for this game. It needs as many players as it can get.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:21
|
|
|
I'm gonna play Tau Fleet forever when they're released, even if they're bad. Love the blue dudes
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:27
|
|
|
frajaq posted:I'm gonna play Tau Fleet forever when they're released, even if they're bad. Love the blue dudes   Bluies 4 lyfe
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:33
|
|
|
Do they get space railguns? I want space railguns.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
rockopete posted:micro is a gatekeeper, nothing more. it's like complicated move sets and combos in fighting games--once you and your opponent have mastered them, the contest shifts back to strategy. might as well cut out the middleman here given the already limited audience for this game. It needs as many players as it can get. what? how do you cut out the middleman when the middleman is skillful play? do you ban players for using all their skills when its appropriate?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
This is rapidly heading into poo poo idiot territory.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:36
|
|
|
How do the Bugs work in TT? Just ram/board/eat everything? What makes them interesting to play with/against?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
Comstar posted:What makes them interesting to play with/against? Games Workshop has, in over 40 years of operation, never considered this question once.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:39
|
|
|
Up Circle posted:what? how do you cut out the middleman when the middleman is skillful play? do you ban players for using all their skills when its appropriate? This is like saying that boxing is an essential part of chess boxing. victrix posted:Do they get space railguns? I want space railguns. lances = ion cannons weapon batteries = railguns
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:40
|
|
|
Tyranids need to keep their ships within Hive Mind range or they start following an AI routine. They board things and murder them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:41
|
|
|
Chomp8645 posted:Games Workshop has, in over 40 years of operation, never considered this question once. Gamesworkshop.jpg
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:45
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:This is like saying that boxing is an essential part of chess boxing. im not reading an entire wikipedia page but from what i read of the blurb, it is in fact an essential part of it. isnt that why its called chess boxing?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:55
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:This is like saying that boxing is an essential part of chess boxing. I may be misinformed but I do believe boxing is in fact literally half of chess boxing
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 02:59
|
|
|
OctaMurk posted:I may be misinformed but I do believe boxing is in fact literally half of chess boxing The point is that chess stands on its own pretty well. See also the earlier mention of elo ratings.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 03:04
|
|
|
Yeah but who the gently caress watches Chess. Jesus Christ.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 03:07
|
|
|
Nickiepoo posted:Yeah but who the gently caress watches Chess. Jesus Christ. Honestly who the gently caress cares about esports outside like five games. The ranked ladder is there because the people playing it enjoy it not for any audience.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 03:08
|
|
|
Do people really think chess doesn't have micromanangement? Or Go for that matter. Obstacle2 fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Apr 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 03:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 13:07 |
|
|
xthetenth posted:Honestly who the gently caress cares about esports outside like five games. The ranked ladder is there because the people playing it enjoy it not for any audience. Well why not have ranked be the regular game except w/o tac cog for people who want to be ultracompetitive micro nerds, and other people can play unranked with tac cog? Seems like that would satisfy everybody, just like how there is Chess, and then Chess Boxing
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 03:15
|
|