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Neurolimal posted:It's easy to shout marxist rhetoric, it's harder to accept the cruelly slow reality of Progress. Luke Skywalker: Look, I can't get involved. I've got work to do. It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now... It's all such a long way from here. I'm beginning to think that Star Wars fans do not actually like Star Wars.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:44
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If we have reached the point where you are arguing that the prequels cannot apply to reality due to inherent differences in its fictional setting, then you have lost. You are the Windu to my Palpatine, using sith tactics to force Jedi morals (the lurkers are Anakin). It is over; the reading has become corrupt and Evil.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:44
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Neurolimal posted:The Jedi are not evil for failing to realize the reality of their fictional universe, nor for not attempting futile aggressive Sith Actions. it doesn't matter if they were evil or not. They chose evil - ignoring slavery "for the sake of the mission", accepting the clone troopers, attempting a coup - and that's all that matters.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Luke Skywalker: Look, I can't get involved. I've got work to do. It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now... It's all such a long way from here. That is not the slow push of progress, that is cowardice. There is no link between that statement and Qui-Gon.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:it doesn't matter if they were evil or not. They chose evil - ignoring slavery "for the sake of the mission", accepting the clone troopers, attempting a coup - and that's all that matters. My entire point is that the Jedi do -not- ignore slavery. An impoverished tatooine child slave is given a test to rise above his status precisely because the Jedi are sympathetic. The Jedi go out of their way to attempt a rescue of two slaves.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:47
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Yaws posted:Every UN soldier we kill is a cycle of violence ended. Unfortunately or no, by design or not, the United Nations is the public face and promoter of technocratic neoliberalism. It's not that they "do nothing" in the face of slavery, it's the opposite.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:52
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Neurolimal posted:My entire point is that the Jedi do -not- ignore slavery. An impoverished tatooine child slave is given a test to rise above his status precisely because the Jedi are sympathetic. The Jedi go out of their way to attempt a rescue of two slaves. Ah a slave? Answer correctly these riddles three and mayhaps soon you shall be free.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:54
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Neurolimal posted:My entire point is that the Jedi do -not- ignore slavery. An impoverished tatooine child slave is given a test to rise above his status precisely because the Jedi are sympathetic. The Jedi go out of their way to attempt a rescue of two slaves. Because one Jedi thinks that the slave child would make a fine recruit for their cult.
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Apr 30, 2016 20:55
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Neurolimal posted:My entire point is that the Jedi do -not- ignore slavery. An impoverished tatooine child slave is given a test to rise above his status precisely because the Jedi are sympathetic. The Jedi go out of their way to attempt a rescue of two slaves. "One single child is freed from slavery by risking his life, this is clear evidence that the jedi are good!"
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Apr 30, 2016 20:55
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Yaws posted:Plenty of people have written about Star Wars without this dopey revisionist bullshit going on in the last few pages. As far as I can tell your argument was that: 1. The Rebellion (and Republic, by extension) can't be evil, because the Empire already plainly is, and (revealed later) Star Wars is black/white escapism 2. Besides, if Star Wars was all shades of gray, and in some cases depicted evil vs evil, it'd be "boring cynical poo poo" 3. Because examining two political systems and declaring them both failures/unworthy of support is somehow Marxist, and naive 4. Because of history/the USSR (?) and something about 20 year old Marxists 5. There will always be suffering, so just go to 1: enjoy black/white fantasies as an escape, do not proceed to 2. What about that is incorrect? You're the one that decided "neither the Republic/Rebellion nor the Empire is good" is somehow "dopey revisionist bullshit."
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Apr 30, 2016 20:55
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you're all 20 something marxists, now let me tell you how TFA is all about millennial struggles
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Apr 30, 2016 20:57
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slaves might have it pretty bad... but man is it hard being a millennial!!!
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Apr 30, 2016 20:59
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Prolonged Priapism posted:As far as I can tell your argument was that: My argument is that the movies are clearly designed around a simple good guys v. bad guys motif. Republic good, Jedi good, Empire bad, Sith bad etc. It's a real stretch to interpret them as anything else which is why all these naive rubes are coming out of the woodwork desperately attempting to add nuance to these simple stories. It's sad. This isn't difficult to comprehend. Even for you.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:04
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Yaws posted:My argument is that the movies are clearly designed around a simple good guys v. bad guys motif. Republic good, Jedi good, Empire bad, Sith bad etc. It's a real stretch to interpret them as anything else which is why all these naive rubes are coming out of the woodwork desperately attempting to add nuance to these simple stories. It's sad. SuperMechagodzilla posted:I'm beginning to think that Star Wars fans do not actually like Star Wars.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:05
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Hat Thoughts posted:Ah a slave? Answer correctly these riddles three and mayhaps soon you shall be free. What do you think would happen if Quigon saved Anakin, brought him to the temple, and it turned out he could not be a jedi? BravestOfTheLamps posted:Because one Jedi thinks that the slave child would make a fine recruit for their cult. cargohills posted:"One single child is freed from slavery by risking his life, this is clear evidence that the jedi are good!" It is through this action that a Butterfly Effect (not just a sci-fi crutch nor decent movie) occurs; this one purely Jedi action results in a Slave Jedi. This Slave Jedi will either result in a toppling of slavery; be it remniscient of the real world American end to slavery (because Lucas is an American and all of Star Wars comments and reflects on real periods), or by the Slave Jedi finishing his droid, becoming evil, allowing his children and droids to survive, then ultimately betraying the Emperor and making two slave droids Heroes Of The Universe. This is because Star Wars is an optimistic world in which one benevolent action holds the power to change the universe. All in the span of one day's worth of effort freeing a slave kid. Who knows what else Qui-Gon did before TPM. Let alone all the other Jedi. This certainly wouldn't happen by the Jedi murdering their way to temporary abolition.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:06
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cargohills posted:you're all 20 something marxists, now let me tell you how TFA is all about millennial struggles cargohills posted:slaves might have it pretty bad... but man is it hard being a millennial!!! I'm not Yaws, and I've never compared millenials to slaves. Thank you for your contribution to the thread.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:08
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The Jedi are obviously supposed to be good, and if they come across as evil to the audience then that's because the filmmakers hosed it up and unintentionally made lovely films, not because the Jedi are secretly the bad guys or whatever rubbish.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:09
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lfield posted:The Jedi are obviously supposed to be good, and if they come across as evil to the audience then that's because the filmmakers hosed it up and unintentionally made lovely films, not because the Jedi are secretly the bad guys or whatever rubbish. Well yes, the prequels are garbage. There's no disputing that.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:10
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If the Jedi are good, why are they introduced intimidating, deceiving, and mutilating people?
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Apr 30, 2016 21:11
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lfield posted:The Jedi are obviously supposed to be good, and if they come across as evil to the audience then that's because the filmmakers hosed it up and unintentionally made lovely films, not because the Jedi are secretly the bad guys or whatever rubbish. Ah yes, the Tezzor argument.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:11
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Luke Skywalker: Look, I can't get involved. I've got work to do. It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now... It's all such a long way from here. What're you saying here, Star Wars fans should attack US military facilities?
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Apr 30, 2016 21:13
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porfiria posted:What're you saying here, Star Wars fans should attack US military facilities? Yes.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If the Jedi are good, why are they introduced intimidating, deceiving, and mutilating people? If we watch it as your preferred reading intends, we are introduced to the Jedi when they drink tea waiting to peacefully negotiate, escape a trap, save a world leader, free a slave, and unify a worlds' isolationist societies. If you mean Ben Kenobi, this happens after being intimidated and threatened. He's not good for doing this, and in the films climax he comes to this realization after attempting a geriatric swordfight, allowing his friend some peace of mind while still being capable of helping Luke, a far more noble Jedi.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:15
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Serf posted:Ah yes, the Tezzor argument. If thats how he wants to read the film, then thats fine. There's no Reading Mandate to adhere to, nor is there a forum rule to assume the best in directors.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:16
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If Ben only comes to the realisation that he's a dick in the 4th film then that means he's been a dick for the first three movies, no? And that guy's reading of the film is that the Jedi are assholes, "George Lucas is stupid" is him trying to explain why it must be wrong somehow.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:18
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Neurolimal posted:If thats how he wants to read the film, then thats fine. There's no Reading Mandate to adhere to, nor is there a forum rule to assume the best in directors. I mean it is a useful way to bury your head in the sand and avoid discussing nuance. Which is fine, but not really conducive to discussion.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:20
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sure, 1984 may seem critical of totalitarianism, but what if Orwell is in fact a big stupid doo-doo head?
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Apr 30, 2016 21:21
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cargohills posted:If he only comes to the realisation that he's a dick in the 4th film then that means he's been a dick for the first three movies, no? No? It's possible to go from a good person to a dickhead without ever realizing the transformation. For Obi it happens around the time he and Anakin star drifting apart; this doesn't happen in TPM. quote:And his reading of the film is that the Jedi are assholes, "George Lucas is stupid" is him trying to explain why it must be wrong somehow. It's how he decides to read the film. Neither he can prove nor you can disprove it. In a subjective argument over art the only winners are those who come with an open mind, not those who Lawjik the hardest. I'm not saying you have to accept it, just that "you're a dumb doodoo head for having this wrong subjective opinion" is the only objectively wrong statement I've seen in the past few pages. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 21:22
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"George Lucas is stupid and therefore everything in the film is a mistake" is not a reading.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:24
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cargohills posted:"George Lucas is stupid and therefore everything in the film is a mistake" is not a reading. Its the context through which he chooses to interpret the scenes.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:25
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He interprets the scenes in the same way this thread does, but then decided that it must somehow be wrong based on absolutely nothing but gut feeling that the director is an idiot.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:26
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Neurolimal posted:If we watch it as your preferred reading intends, we are introduced to the Jedi when they drink tea waiting to peacefully negotiate, escape a trap, save a world leader, free a slave, and unify a worlds' isolationist societies. QUI-GON : These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short. QUI-GON : The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get outta here! QUI-GON : Credits will do fine. WATTO : No, they won'ta. What you think you're some kinda Jedi, waving your hand around like that? I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don'ta work on me-only money. Neurolimal posted:If you mean Ben Kenobi, this happens after being intimidated and threatened. He's not good for doing this, and in the films climax he comes to this realization after attempting a geriatric swordfight, allowing his friend some peace of mind while still being capable of helping Luke, a far more noble Jedi. Correct. The Jedi were failures.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:26
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:QUI-GON : These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short. A low opinion of the Federation does not mean they are being strongarmed. They could just be worried about Republic action. Like I said before, he's being annoyed by a presumably unhelpful frogdork on his way to attempt to outpace transports and save a world-leader I've mentioned alternative readings to how mind tricks work before. It doesn't have to be maleficent. Watto's attitude actually assists one reading. quote:Correct. The Jedi were failures. The Jedi lose their way in AotC and ROTS, in ANH the presumed final old Jedi returns to his code at the climax when he chooses to sate his friends' rage and confine himself to nonviolent, assistant projections. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 21:34
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cargohills posted:He interprets the scenes in the same way this thread does, but then decided that it must somehow be wrong based on absolutely nothing but gut feeling that the director is an idiot. Sometimes films try to do things but fail. That's what I think happened with the prequels.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:34
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Why?
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Apr 30, 2016 21:37
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lfield posted:The Jedi are obviously supposed to be good, and if they come across as evil to the audience then that's because the filmmakers hosed it up and unintentionally made lovely films, not because the Jedi are secretly the bad guys or whatever rubbish. Yaws, Tezzor, and yourself - you all share this odd belief that you are 'supposed to believe' the Jedi are good, and therefore they are good. Anything else is a 'secret message', hidden in the neutral container that is a film. But in every case, there is the expectation of being told what to think and what to feel. In this view, literacy is impossible. Films cannot be interpreted; all we can do is praise or insult their authors. Hence, Star Wars fandom becomes fixated on George Lucas as bad man. And the films themselves are disposable.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:39
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cargohills posted:Why? Well most other elements of the films were a load of old toss, too, so I went ahead and assumed they hosed up the Jedi by accident rather than on purpose.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:41
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What beautiful analysis.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:46
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If for no other reason, the Jedi must not be evil, because Lule sees enough Good in Ben, Yoda, and his father to identify aa a Jedi, and define it with Good actions. In addition, Star Wars itself is not cynical enough for that, nor is George Lucas. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 21:51
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Neurolimal posted:If for no other reason, the Jedi must not ne evil, because Lule sees enough Good in Ben, Yoda, and his father to identify aa a Jedi, and define it with Good actions. That's his personal opinion. Of course he redeems the Jedi, but the sequel mucks this up by having them all get killed again.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:53
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