|
CelticPredator posted:Most people don't really think about this kind of weird poo poo though. It's not a universal truth that Godzilla is Bryan Cranston because that's weird. They can choose to or choose not to, just as with anything else. Is this an argument about ambiguity?
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 18:31 |
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're losing sight of what you're arguing. Snyder is an interesting director. His movies can't be dismissed as pretty and vacuous, because otherwise they'd just be forgotten. If you say to a bunch of nerds that MoS is good, they tend to be flabbergasted, like some orthodoxy has been violated. That's not how people treat "uninteresting" movies. BvS was thoroughly uninteresting. The reason most people disliked the movie is because it was just completely by the numbers 90% of the time. And those few moments where it wasn't by the numbers were completely baffling in how badly they were handled. Superman had to die because of the Jesus metaphor. He had to come back because of the Jesus metaphor. The plot happens with no connection to the actual events of the story. Batman has to fight Superman, even if it makes no sense at that stage of the plot. So it happens. The Martha scene is infamous because of how bad it is, but it also is another example of "well, we had a cool idea for scene, how do we transition? I dunno, just throw something in there and cut away 10 seconds later to move it along." The other metahumans were so periphery to the actual movie that Wonder Woman literally interrupts the movie for 5 minutes to sit down and watch Quicktime clips in real time. I thought MoS was fine, but also largely uninteresting. It had very high highs and low lows. Snyder's films are visually interesting, but they are the definition of pretty and vacuous. Really really ham-handed Jesus metaphors, embracing sexism and voyeurism in an attempt to "subvert" it, and a couple movies that are just straight up reproductions and remakes of other works are all the most common ways to be totally vacuous. It's not really surprising that his best work is when he is literally just adding a visual element to already existing material. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Apr 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:The rumour about James Wan comes from Devin Faraci, and I don't remember him being right about anything DCEU related so far, El Mayimbe has better track record in that front. I dunno, Faraci broke a lot of BvS stuff that was 'debunked', including the use of Doomsday that multiple people swore wasn't true. The only thing so far that has a question mark is the Suicide Squad reshoots, and the only thing thats been questioned there is the reason for it - though I do happen to think that he's wrong on that front.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:BvS was thoroughly uninteresting. The reason most people disliked the movie is because it was just completely by the numbers 90% of the time. I'd say the opposite is true. How did you come to this conclusion?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:They can choose to or choose not to, just as with anything else. Is this an argument about ambiguity? It's an argument on that being the answer to someone not liking that Cranston bites it so early on. I don't think that will help anyone's case.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:54
|
|
|
DrVenkman posted:I dunno, Faraci broke a lot of BvS stuff that was 'debunked', including the use of Doomsday that multiple people swore wasn't true. The only thing so far that has a question mark is the Suicide Squad reshoots, and the only thing thats been questioned there is the reason for it - though I do happen to think that he's wrong on that front. Faraci also said that Snyder was secretly being fired from Justice League, and then like a day later it got out that the movie had already started shooting. I also recall him saying that the Cumberbatch rumors were a total smokescreen and that Joaquin Phoenix had been signed for ages to do Doctor Strange, that Doctor Strange wasn't going to be an origin story, and that Khan wasn't in Star Trek Into Darkness. Basically, he's completely unafraid to make poo poo up out of thin air in order to fit his narrative, which is generally "Marvel Studios rules, all others drool."
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:54
|
|
|
DrVenkman posted:I dunno, Faraci broke a lot of BvS stuff that was 'debunked', including the use of Doomsday that multiple people swore wasn't true. The only thing so far that has a question mark is the Suicide Squad reshoots, and the only thing thats been questioned there is the reason for it - though I do happen to think that he's wrong on that front. Doomsday was broken first by El Mayimbe though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:56
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:BvS was thoroughly uninteresting. The reason most people disliked the movie is because it was just completely by the numbers 90% of the time. And those few moments where it wasn't by the numbers were completely baffling in how badly they were handled. Superman had to die because of the Jesus metaphor. He had to come back because of the Jesus metaphor. The plot happens with no connection to the actual events of the story. Batman has to fight Superman, even if it makes no sense at that stage of the plot. So it happens. The Martha scene is infamous because of how bad it is, but it also is another example of "well, we had a cool idea for scene, how do we transition? I dunno, just throw something in there and cut away 10 seconds later to move it along." If they're vacuous, why do people debate their themes and meanings like you just did?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 20:57
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:It's an argument on that being the answer to someone not liking that Cranston bites it so early on. I don't think that will help anyone's case. It's not meant to be an argument with universal appeal. You're allowed to be idiosyncratic and thoughtful on a message board for talking about children's movies.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
"Snyder is a hack, so obviously the only thing he could have meant by this scene is a Jesus metaphor. Therefore I'm not gonna put any more thought into what it could mean."
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
The reaction against "Jesus metaphors" is pretty telling. There's nothing actually wrong with employing Messianic metaphor. It's a powerful motif, and will survive overuse and parody.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:02
|
|
|
HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's not meant to be an argument with universal appeal. You're allowed to be idiosyncratic and thoughtful on a message board for talking about children's movies. For sure, but I just thought that was a dumb argument for someone who was talking about their thoughts on character. I don't know how you'd argue that to be honest because I really liked and still like Johnson's Ford and Cranston dying early never bothered me, but I can see how it would bother someone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:04
|
|
|
Martman posted:"Snyder is a hack, so obviously the only thing he could have meant by this scene is a Jesus metaphor. Therefore I'm not gonna put any more thought into what it could mean." The Jesus metaphors were so constant and so ham-handed I don't know how you could say that. He literally falls to earth posed in crucifixion and Snyder dresses Jesus in the Church in a blue robe and red cape. A badly executed metaphor does not make it more complex. BravestOfTheLamps posted:The reaction against "Jesus metaphors" is pretty telling. There's nothing actually wrong with employing Messianic metaphor. It's a powerful motif, and will survive overuse and parody. All cliches and tropes have places. Executing them in a ham-handed way and overusing them is the problem. Did any of those metaphors make you go, "Wow, I GET it now"? or have any major bearing on the plot? They were visual short-hands and crutches to add weight to scenes. None of the Christ imagery made his death any more impactful or his impending resection any less telegraphed. They were, as you said earlier, pretty and vacuous. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Apr 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:04
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:For sure, but I just thought that was a dumb argument for someone who was talking about their thoughts on character. I don't know how you'd argue that to be honest because I really liked and still like Johnson's Ford and Cranston dying early never bothered me, but I can see how it would bother someone. The way you'd argue it is thematic relevance.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:05
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Jesus metaphors were so constant and so ham-handed I don't know how you could say that. He literally falls to earth posed in crucifixion and Snyder dresses Jesus in the Church in a blue robe and red cape. A badly executed metaphor does not make it more complex. That's not badly executed. It's basic comparison, Superman is a saviour. Your complaint seems to be that there were "metaphors" in the first place, or that you noticed them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:07
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:If they're vacuous, why do people debate their themes and meanings like you just did? Most internet debates seem to be about vacuous things, the fact that it's being debated isn't a point in its favour. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
Martman posted:"Snyder is a hack, so obviously the only thing he could have meant by this scene is a Jesus metaphor. Therefore I'm not gonna put any more thought into what it could mean." Please tell us what the scene means
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Please tell us what the scene means Not with that attitude.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:10
|
|
|
These movies are completely meaningless, which is why I am going to talk about how I didn't like the allegory in them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:12
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:That's not badly executed. It's basic comparison, Superman is a saviour. I wonder what the venn diagram of "nu atheist" and "has kneejerk reactions to Christ allegory" looks like.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:14
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:These movies are completely meaningless, which is why I am going to talk about how I didn't like the allegory in them. Things can exist and be lazy, poorly executed, or superfluous. Something existing does not automatically make it meaningful or necessary.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:15
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Things can exist and be lazy, poorly executed, or superfluous. Something's existence does not have inherent meaning.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:16
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Things can exist and be lazy, poorly executed, or superfluous. Something existing does not automatically make it meaningful or necessary. Snyder wanted to compare Superman to Christ, so he felt it necessary to add two visual motifs. Thus there is meaning. Also, Jesus isn't dressed blue and red in the Church scene. It's red and white. But seriously, I'll be the first to admit that the stained glass was bit overwrought - the scene itself is good, though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:18
|
|
|
Wow, red and white? He couldn't even get his lazy metaphor right, what a hack.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
Jesus metaphors play to the lowest common denominator. He's not even the judeo-christian character Superman most resembles. But when debate about a story's themes in a way that compliments them, it's usually done so in a way that explores the nature of what those themes mean. Is Deckard a replicant? What's the nature of the monolith? With Zack Snyder it comes down to whether those themes should have even used or not because they're delivered with the gracefulness of a bag of hammers with poor set up, ham handedness, and a fair number of unfortunate implications. This is best exemplified by the fact that Superman's "died for your sins" metaphor doesn't work when everyday people don't have the powers to follow his examples and the looming threats will be handled not by mortal men, but by other godlike supermen. He doesn't put this stuff in with any effort to make them work, he puts them in because he thinks presenting them as much subtlety as possible is somehow deep. The discussion isn't framed about analysis of these themes and what they say, or can say, but rather, a defense or attack on the quality of their execution. In regards to bringing up whether the movie was a financial success or not, the conversation STARTED because it related to whether or not the claims Warner Bros. being concerned and there being behind the scenes troubles had any legitimacy or not. Comparisons to Marvel were made not for the sake of comparing metaphorical penis sizes, but in regards to how they've set expectations for how these kinds of movies perform.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:This is best exemplified by the fact that Superman's "died for your sins" metaphor doesn't work when everyday people don't have the powers to follow his examples Hmm.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:Jesus metaphors play to the lowest common denominator. He's not even the judeo-christian character Superman most resembles. wait UHHH SPOILERS I'm talking about DEADPOOL
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
Oh, my, god.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:25
|
|
|
What, you saying you don't walk on water or turn water into wine? poo poo man, I heal lepers as a way to get parties started.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:This is best exemplified by the fact that Superman's "died for your sins" metaphor doesn't work when everyday people don't have the powers to follow his examples 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:Jesus metaphors play to the lowest common denominator. He's not even the judeo-christian character Superman most resembles.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
Nevermind that the actual Christ metaphor has more in common with say, Last Temptation than striking crucifix poses. All of the scenes that depict him as a Christ figure or demigod are deeply uncomfortable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
Way to go Snyder, you didn't even realize that normal humans don't have superpowers!! What a moron.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
Hmm, what? Contextualized in terms of a "lesson", Jesus's story is about moral goodness, conquering the one supernatural barrier to our salvation so that we may earn it through fundamental goodness. With his sacrifice, it comes down to living a life without sin and temptation. This doesn't work for Superman because the devils coming to Earth in his wake won't be metaphorical, they won't inspire man to sin. They'll be CGI spectacles that the Flash, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, and Aquaman have to beat up. More Supermen. "Those who seek his monument, look around you." Well, so much for that, that monument is gonna be blown up by Kalibak and Steppenwolf. quote:Way to go Snyder, you didn't even realize that normal humans don't have superpowers!! What a moron. It's less that and more "this undermines the theme's applicability both to its own universe and in general."
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
Martman posted:Way to go Snyder, you didn't even realize that normal humans don't have superpowers!! What a moron. Oh my god Snyder really is an objectivist.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
TetsuoTW posted:Why are you still doing this to us?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:Hmm, what? Contextualized in terms of a "lesson", Jesus's story is about moral goodness, conquering the one supernatural barrier to our salvation so that we may earn it through fundamental goodness. With his sacrifice, it comes down to living a life without sin and temptation. It's not about fundamental goodness. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Aug 18, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:30
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:That's not badly executed. It's basic comparison, Superman is a saviour. It reminds me of the complaints of Oblivion, where people's complaints were literally "this film quotes other movies". Like no poo poo, films do that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:33
|
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:"Those who seek his monument, look around you." Well, so much for that, that monument is gonna be blown up by Kalibak and Steppenwolf. Kalibak (a reference to Caliban) and Steppenwolf (of which Kirby would've been familiar with through Hesse) are living concepts, like the reanimated Doomsday. There's a reason they're going for the more broadly metaphorical NEW GODS. The unnamed Darkseid (partly an inspiration for Darth Vader, and Marvel's Thanos) is represented as the devil.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 18:31 |
|
|
TFRazorsaw posted:Jesus's story is about moral goodness, conquering the one supernatural barrier to our salvation quote:the devils coming to Earth in his wake won't be metaphorical, they won't inspire man to sin. They'll be CGI spectacles that the Flash, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, and Aquaman have to beat up
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2016 21:34
|
|