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Pretty good article that shows what the average Venezuelan goes through to be able to eat at least once a day with a lot of real families as examples http://www.businessinsider.com/venezuela-economic-food-crisis-meals-2016-4
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May 2, 2016 00:42
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Demiurge4 posted:I like this one, because it justifies limited corruption. That is, itself, part of the (dark) joke.
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May 2, 2016 00:49
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El Hefe posted:I wonder what sort of brain disease you must have to live in this country, not be on their payroll, but still somehow keep supporting the PSUV. Sunk-cost fallacy? I don't know man, it's literally impossible to me to understand that frame of mind. Chuck Boone posted:There’s a kind of (perhaps not so)subtle patronizing that is evident in pieces like the one Jimmy copied and pasted, and in the theories that people like Golinger and other non-Venezuelan academics throw around about what’s happening in Venezuela. I’m not saying that Venezuelans don’t do this either, but it’s especially evident in the work of some these PSUV supporters from abroad. This is all done for people like the ones in this thread. Just regular dudes, maybe some of them with left-wing inclinations, a few very much against the US government and policies. It's all bullshit destined for people that only want that specific kind of story so that they can use it as ammunition to their own arguments. That's why us Venezuelans are so eager to share what's going on in our country, without first-hand testimony, lots of people are willing to believe that sort of lies because they are destined to them. Of course some of them are just batshit crazy, but that's because they literally say anything that pops into their head.
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May 2, 2016 00:52
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El Hefe posted:Fuuuuck I thought passports were good for 10 years but they are only good for 5 years and I just checked mine and it expires in June and my American visa expires in September so if poo poo hits the fan I can't even go there... Can Mercosur residents not travel between their countries with just their ID cards? Whats the Venezuela / Brazil border like?
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May 2, 2016 04:55
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I wonder if venezuealans can try and claim that they have a right to enter a country without a passport because they are a refugee from a collapsing country, and governmental systems have failed.
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May 2, 2016 05:04
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Are significant percentages of the population wanting to exit the country, but just don't have the means?
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May 2, 2016 05:13
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Well, there's a few in this very thread, and anecdotally I know of at least a couple other middle class Venezuelans trying to emigrate to the US through some of my friends. I don't know if their is any truly reliable data or actual polls/ percentages though. It seems like Venezuela needs someone willing to basically fall on their sword for the country and make much needed but probably incredibly unpopular reforms, basically destroying any political future they may have in the process. Also, I know it shouldn't, but does kinda blow my loving mind that we can have people in country openly ask for help leaving ITT, and then still have that one guy come and post an article saying that actually things are good and cool in Venezuela.
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May 2, 2016 06:21
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Chuck Boone posted:He also ordered his supporters to launch a rebellion and starve themselves to death if he were ever removed from power: Your article says "general strike", not "hunger strike".
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May 2, 2016 07:07
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Arkane posted:Are significant percentages of the population wanting to exit the country, but just don't have the means? Anecdotally, virtually every person that I know in Venezuela (extended family and the few friends I have left there) wants to leave the country for good. The only exception is my grandmother, who is quite elderly and who I think would refuse to leave even if you gave her the plane ticket to get out. My other family members (from my parents' generation) are either "stuck" due to family/life obligations, or because they can't get visas to enter any other country permanently. I was just telling some friends here the other day that in our family we are seven cousins, and every one of us except one has left the country and is now living abroad. After months of planning, the last cousin just finalized plans last week to move away, and he'll be out before the end of the year. That's an entire generation gone from their home country. I remember reading some emigration data at some point relatively recently. I'll try to find it and post it here. themrguy posted:Also, I know it shouldn't, but does kinda blow my loving mind that we can have people in country openly ask for help leaving ITT, and then still have that one guy come and post an article saying that actually things are good and cool in Venezuela. I don't know if you remember that Iraqi general who would go on TV in the early days of the second US invasion and say that entire American units were being routed and massacred, that the Iraqi forces were capturing US soldiers by the thousands, etc. All the while, everyone knew the guy was full of it since CNN was showing pictures of US soldiers roaming the country unmolested or steamrolling through whatever little resistance they'd come across. Anyway, these sort of people are kind of like that Iraqi general. Even facts won't stop some people from believing in something they desperately want to be true. Pharohman777 posted:I wonder if venezuealans can try and claim that they have a right to enter a country without a passport because they are a refugee from a collapsing country, and governmental systems have failed. I'm sure there are paperless Venezuelans in Colombia, for example. I think Colombia is probably looking on nervously at the situation since it'd be the go-to destination in a worst-case, mass exodus situation. The border with Brazil is mostly deep jungle, and so is the one with Guayana. beer_war posted:Your article says "general strike", not "hunger strike". Yes it does! Thank you for catching that. I don't know why I read "huelga de hambre" instead of "huelga general". I'm sorry about this.
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May 2, 2016 13:23
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This whole situation of Venezuela has been an utmost disaster. I really can't imagine things playing out worse for the country. All this because they happened to elect a loony who just happened to come into power when the nation's strongest natural resource was about to go through record value spikes, giving the illusion that his radical economic policies were working. Attributing correlation to causation is an incredibly dangerous thing.
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May 2, 2016 13:44
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It's not literally everyone wanting to leave the country. I do have a few friends that want to stay and fight for it (and those are they words, they are making a conscious decision to stay despise adversity to work towards a better country), and two that want to stay because they have found themselves a nice spot working for the government. As Chuck says, people older than, I don't know, 50-ish? are not willing to leave do to their whole lives and responsibilities being tied to the country. Sadly my mom is one of them. But most people under 40 are trying desperately to leave the country, all the more if they have small children: you might find a hard life as an immigrant, but your child can grow in a better place.
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May 2, 2016 13:51
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How quickly can the shortages of staple goods be resolved, in principle? Does this all stem from the currency scheme?
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May 2, 2016 15:01
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Mozi posted:How quickly can the shortages of staple goods be resolved, in principle? Does this all stem from the currency scheme? A short answer to your second question is "yes". The price distortions caused by a combination of inflation and government-set prices are essentially feeding the black market. These same forces are also a huge incentive for corruption, which is too tempting to resist for many. This is one of the main reasons why PDVAL (a state-owned supermarket chain) failed. Some PDVAL workers at the store manager level (and higher up the chain too, I'm sure) were siphoning off products destined for shelves to sell in the black market. Moreover, I know of cases of companies that have been forced to shut down and stop producing staple foods because the government is forcing them to sell their products at huge losses. As to your first question, it's hard to say. Not only is the country's productive apparatus essentially destroyed, but foreign currency reserves are quickly drying out as well. When a "necessary industry" (one that imports food and medicine, for example) asks the government for US dollars, the government sells it to them at Bs. 10 per dollar. However, the free-floating black market rate is currently sitting at Bs. 1,115 per dollar. So, even if the currency scheme were to end today, I suspect that you'd suddenly have a lot of companies in a situation where they are not able to afford to buy dollars in the same volume as they did before for imports. It's an extremely difficult situation. EDIT: The National Assembly has been floating around the idea that Venezuela should ask for international aid in the form of food and medicine. Maduro et al. are totally against the idea because it runs contrary to the mythology they're trying to spin, which is that Venezuela is a proud and self-sufficient sovereign nation of dignified workers, etc. I think that if the PSUV were to suddenly disappear, this wouldn't be a bad idea for the short-term. The mid-to-long term project of rebuilding the country's production capacity is probably going to take years. And I don't even want to think about whatever painful monetary restructuring the country will need to swallow to avoid/recover from bankruptcy. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:55 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 15:39
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The damage done up to this point is astronomic on every level, and on every industry. Add to that the fact that a huge part of specialized Venezuelan workers just packed up and left for greener pastures. Both current and new generations are swarming out of the country and will continue to do so, because there's very little point in trying to forge a career in Venezuela. So even if things go back to a more sane level in the government, the country is still in a sorry state and will take years of struggle, international aids, and rebuilding, to go back to the state of "developing country" we could've claimed around 10 years ago. Not to mention the social problems Venezuelans will have to deal with.
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May 2, 2016 16:29
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I'm having a hard time expressing this so hopefully I can get the gist across... It seems so crazy for a country not at war (and especially with such natural wealth) to be deprived of the basics of everyday survival. Flour, cooking oil, toilet paper. The things that aren't only taken for granted as part of the modern world but were probably taken for granted before that to some degree. And from what you've said it's not a matter of changing policy or throwing a switch - the infrastructure isn't there, the money isn't there, and the people are leaving. It's some crazy economist's daydream that's come alive and is hurting so many people. And heck - if the water keeps dropping and there's no power and no food and people take to the streets - it's not going to get them food or power. Things start to get measured in days while the remedy is months or years away. A terrifying situation - good luck to everyone there.
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May 2, 2016 16:52
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Caracas Chronicles' latest post is a pro-read. Short version: "CNE made up a rule, then tried to hide it, then lied about what it said."
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May 2, 2016 17:14
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beer_war posted:Caracas Chronicles' latest post is a pro-read. Thanks for this! This is a good find. I'm not sure which option I'd rather have: either the CNE doesn't know its own rules, or it's so partisan that it's purposely making up things to slow down the process. In both cases the institution is broken. The opposition said over the weekend that it had collected 2.5 million signatures since April 25 (EDIT: The final tally is 1.85 million signatures, and they were handed over to the CNE on Monday afternoon) and that it was getting ready to hand everything over to the CNE. The CNE gave the opposition 30 days to collect approximately 195,000 signatures. The reason why the opposition wants to hand in the signatures earlier is obvious: they want to get on with the process. However, last night, Tania D'Amelio - who is one of three CNE rectors - posted a message on Twitter saying that the opposition must wait 30 days before handing all the signatures in. The opposition got really upset because they saw this as a move intended to slow down the process. To add more chaos to the situation, Luis Rondon - who is another CNE rector - said right after D'Amelio's announcement that she was wrong, and that the CNE could begin verifying the signatures as soon as they received them, which could be tomorrow. In short: no one seems to know what's going on and the CNE is apparently unaware of/making up rules. The CNE is a microcosm of the Venezuelan state. On a side note, someone mentioned Henri Falcon recently in the thread (although I can't find it now). He used to be the in the PSUV, but resigned in 2010. He's the governor of Lara state now. Anyway, he spoke with El Universal over the weekend, and the newspaper published an article about their conversation. Here is Falcon's answer to the question, "How do you see the situation in the country? What's your evaluation of this political moment?": quote:I go out for a walk in Barquisimeto at 5:00 AM, and at that time I see at least six lines [at supermarkets and other establishments]. What do you see there? Poor people. People who, if they're there at 5:00 AM, got up at 3:00 AM. What you see there are the people who turned out massively for the first stage of the [recall referendum process]. And that will happen at every stage, because the government has lost the legitimacy that comes from the streets. It lost the streets, because it dug in with its ideological complex; it deepened its radical posturing. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 21:57 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 19:41
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punk rebel ecks posted:This whole situation of Venezuela has been an utmost disaster. I really can't imagine things playing out worse for the country. All this because they happened to elect a loony who just happened to come into power when the nation's strongest natural resource was about to go through record value spikes, giving the illusion that his radical economic policies were working. Attributing correlation to causation is an incredibly dangerous thing. Really, the only way things could get worse at this point is if Maduro pulled an Assad and ordered the military to use anti-aircraft artillery on protesters.
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May 3, 2016 00:44
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The military are greedy corrupt assholes but I'm confident if poo poo hits the fan they won't kill protesters, back in 2002 the government used their own armed gangs to that end, the so called "colectivos". I hope anyway.
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May 3, 2016 00:54
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I think the US wants its fingerprints off regime change in Venezuela as much as possible since we're trying to recover our reputation in the region and blew it with the coup attempt against Chavez when Bush was President, but open warfare in the streets would definitely provoke some significant form of US involvement. If nothing else, Venezuela's too important as an oil producer to allow it to become Syria.
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May 3, 2016 02:17
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They're going to deny the recall vote anyway. Possibly for having to many signatures. "We asked you to collect 195,000 signatures. There are 2.5M here. 2.5M |= 195,000 therefore the petition is invalid."
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May 3, 2016 04:03
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Good lord: https://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/search?q=venezuela&sort=new&restrict_sr=on
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May 3, 2016 05:08
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Scaramouche posted:Good lord: It's not a very good barometer when you check the posted dates though -- there're only like three threads posted there per month. You could find far more threads like that written for getting out of the US or Canada or Australia honestly (though obviously biased due to population speaking English and reading reddit).
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May 3, 2016 09:01
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Delcy Rodriguez who is our Minister of Foreign Affairs denounced today that she was denied a visa to enter the United States lmao Apparently they are going to send a note of protest and take the matter to international organizations! And here I thought they hated El Imperio why do they want to go there so badly?
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May 4, 2016 04:33
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Sinteres posted:I think the US wants its fingerprints off regime change in Venezuela as much as possible since we're trying to recover our reputation in the region and blew it with the coup attempt against Chavez when Bush was President, but open warfare in the streets would definitely provoke some significant form of US involvement. If nothing else, Venezuela's too important as an oil producer to allow it to become Syria. America cannot help those whom refuse to help themselves.
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May 4, 2016 04:37
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The Asamblea Nacional has sent a bunch of letters requesting medicines to a bunch of non profit organizations because currently pharmacies and laboratories have about a 95% scarcity rate, meaning you can't find even the most basic medicines anywhere BUT Maduro has already said they are going to deny any sort of foreign aid because everything is fine here, meanwhile hundreds of people die everyday because of the lack of medicines...
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May 4, 2016 04:46
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The Ministry of Health provided an update on healthcare in 2015 to the National Assembly on Monday, and revealed some disturbing statistics. For starters, the neonatal mortality rate in the country increased from "0.05% in 2014 to 2.01% in 2015 per 1,000 inhabitants". El Nacional had to double-check the figures, since it initially believed that the drastic jump might have been the result of a clerical error at the Ministry of Health. However, the newspaper reports that the figures line up with internal statistic maintained by the Hospital Universitario de Caracas. According to those figures, the hospital received 2,447 births last year; of those, 478 entered the intensive care unit, and 47 died. The figures but the neonatal mortality rate at the hospital at 19 per 1,000 live births. The hospital had more neonatal fatalities in the first four months of 2016 than it did in all of 2015. Between January and April of this year, out of 1,534 live births at the hospital, 51 neonates have died, putting the fatality rate so far this year at the hospital at 33 per 1,000 births. The Maternidad Concepcion Palacios hospital is not faring any better, as its neonatal fatality rate for 2016 currently sits at 35 per 1,000 births. The most likely culprit for this dramatic increase in the neonatal fatality rate seems to be the widespread and well-known shortage of basic medicine and medical supplies. Like El Hefe said though, Maduro & Co. are still spinning the story that things are actually OK and that whatever minor inconvenience people may or may not be feeling is actually a result of the economic/psychological/media war against Venezuela. Let's pray that the CIA and the DEA stop putting kill orders on Venezuelan newborns! The Lone Badger posted:They're going to deny the recall vote anyway. Possibly for having to many signatures. "We asked you to collect 195,000 signatures. There are 2.5M here. 2.5M |= 195,000 therefore the petition is invalid." Something like this is definitely a possibility, but if last year's election is any indication, hopefully it won't come to this. There were lots of rumours throughout last year that the CNE was going to delay/cancel the parliamentary elections. The CNE took really long to announce the actual election date, even though the Constitution mandated it had to be that year. With tensions being so high, you would think that the CNE would have done the sensible thing and announced the election date in a timely manner, but instead they took their time for seemingly no reason other than to stress everyone out. If the recall happens before January 10 2017, there will be a presidential election and the PSUV will lose. That is a fact. If the recall referendum happens after January 10 2017, the vice-president - Aristobulo Isturiz - becomes president. This leaves the PSUV in charge until the presidential election in late 2018. I think what's more likely to happen (and what we're seeing happening now) is that the CNE/the Venezuelan state will kick up its Operacion Morrocoy [literally, "Operation Tortoise"]. This means that they'll drag this out for as long as possible in order to force the referendum to happen after January 10 2017. This is why it took so long for the CNE to approve the first stage of the process (the opposition had to submit the paperwork four times), and this is why one of the CNE rectors said they needed to wait 30 days to check this first batch of signatures. I'm sure there'll be tons of bumps and delays along the way. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Supreme Court steps in with a timely ruling on some key issue that pushes things back weeks/months. All of this is to say: I think the referendum will happen, but I think they'll throw as many wrenches into the machine so as to delay the process to their advantage. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 13:50 on May 4, 2016 |
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May 4, 2016 13:40
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Pssh, only 2% neonatal fatality rate. Why, that's still lower than Europe's [600 years ago]. Stop exaggerating. I'd guess that power cuts are causing most of those deaths rather than lack of medical supplies. Premature babies super need their incubators.
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May 4, 2016 13:49
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Saladman posted:Pssh, only 2% neonatal fatality rate. Why, that's still lower than Europe's [600 years ago]. Stop exaggerating. That's a really good point! I would imagine that it's worse in hospitals in the interior states, since Caracas is usually spared (or was, until recently) blackouts. I also seem to remember a story from a few months ago about a hospital in (Tachira, I think?) that had something like 6 babies die in a day due to some kind of issue -- I think it was a blackout, actually. The other interesting bit that came out of the Ministry of Health's update has to do with vaccinations. The Ministry of Health also revealed that 2,789,815 vaccines were administered to children in 2015, a decrease of 2,312,453 from 2014. Dr. Carlos Walter at the Observatorio Venezolano de la Salud [Venezuelan Health Watch] told El Universal that the Ministry of Health’s figures on vaccinations pose troubling inconsistencies. For example, Dr. Walter told the newspaper that while the Ministry of Health claims to have vaccinated 77% of all children who required a polio vaccine in 2014, it claims to have vaccinated 91% of children in 2015 but with dramatically fewer vaccines. In other words, the Ministry of Health claims to have done substantially more polio vaccinations in 2015 with substantially fewer vaccine doses. El Universal also points out that the inconsistencies extend to the MMR vaccine as well: quote:The same occurred with the [MMR vaccine], the coverage of which jumped – according to the Ministry of Health – from 87% to 97% in those years [2014-2015], yet there were 2,098,007 fewer vaccines administered than in the year before.
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May 4, 2016 13:57
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El Hefe if you want to get out quickly, are you able to use that border crossing to Brazil and then maybe from that northern city take a flight to a major brazilian city and from there to destination? i thought up Brazil because i know its impossible or you die in the process of crossing the border to columbia.
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May 4, 2016 16:19
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Either way i can find flights to book from Caracas to where i live in Europe for may and june ,and from here you can get anywhere.
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May 4, 2016 16:23
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Can't wait for Borneo Jimmy to spin the deaths of babies into an anti regime plot.
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May 4, 2016 16:28
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Can't wait for Borneo Jimmy to spin the deaths of babies into an anti regime plot. No, it's even easier: Obviously you imperialist yanquis and yanqui-sympathizing-fifth-columnists don't trust Venezuelan statistics when they're saying good things (i.e. inflation is more like 7%, not 125% and certainly not 700%), and yet you DO trust Venezuelan statistics when they're saying bad things (infant mortality goes up by 20-fold). Seriously, you all are so one-sided. Q.E.D. No, not seriously.
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May 4, 2016 16:36
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Remember how last week the National Assembly summoned Minister of Nutrition Rodolfo Marco Torres twice to provide a balance on the food situation in the country, and twice Marco Torres ignored the summons? And do you remember how the National Assembly then passed a voto de censura [essentially a vote of no confidence] against the minister, meaning that Maduro had to remove him from his post and assign someone to replace him? Well, Maduro issued a presidential decree yesterday "restricting and deferring" the National Assembly's power to hold votos de censura against ministers, stripping an important power away from the National Assembly.and strengthening his own. I don't think it was explicitly stated in the decree, but I think it goes without saying that Rodolfo Marco Torres remains as Minister of Nutrition.
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May 4, 2016 17:52
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The power to remove ministers by the AN is also in the constitution so Maduro is once again violating the constitution whenever he pleases.Celexi posted:El Hefe if you want to get out quickly, are you able to use that border crossing to Brazil and then maybe from that northern city take a flight to a major brazilian city and from there to destination? i thought up Brazil because i know its impossible or you die in the process of crossing the border to columbia. I'm not dying to get out just yet but yeah in case of emergency there are a few options available, I live like 45 minutes from the border to Colombia so that'd be easier.
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May 4, 2016 19:20
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Here's a timely example of Operacion Morrocoy in action: The opposition handed over 1.85 million signatures to the Consejo Nacional Electoral (CNE) on Monday. According to the CNE regulations, it must verify the signatures over a period of five consecutive days. So, the opposition figured that at the latest, the signatures would be verified by Monday of next week, which would allow them to move on to step two of the referendum process. The head of the CNE, Tibisay Lucena, just gave a press conference in which she explained that the CNE had started to count all of the forms today, not verify them. She said: quote:... over three of four days - or maybe by Monday or Tuesday - we will count the forms. El Hefe posted:The power to remove ministers by the AN is also in the constitution so Maduro is once again violating the constitution whenever he pleases. Exactly. It's also worth mentioning that Maduro framed the decree within the economic emergency decree that he'd fought to have instituted earlier this year.
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May 4, 2016 21:50
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At this point why is the legislature even participating in the charade? Biding time until the country completely collapses and the people spontaneously rise up and cast off Maduro? Stalling while they work with the military, etc. behind the scenes to support a coup? Maduro and Co. have done so many blatantly anti-constitutional acts that it's incredible the legislature even bothers anymore. What is the intent of continuing to pass measures that are promptly ignored?
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May 5, 2016 02:06
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Taphreek posted:At this point why is the legislature even participating in the charade? Biding time until the country completely collapses and the people spontaneously rise up and cast off Maduro? Stalling while they work with the military, etc. behind the scenes to support a coup? Maduro and Co. have done so many blatantly anti-constitutional acts that it's incredible the legislature even bothers anymore. What is the intent of continuing to pass measures that are promptly ignored? There are probably a couple of answers to this question. The first and most immediate answer is that Venezuelans elected their National Assembly deputies to do a job: legislate. As far as the MUD deputies are concerned, they are doing exactly what 60% of Venezuelans elected them to do. The way they see it, they're doing their jobs. Maduro and the rest of the Venezuelan state can do whatever they want to slow them down or make their job impossible, but that doesn't break the responsibility that the deputies as elected representatives of the Venezuelan people have to their constituents. I suspect that a second answer might be that the MUD sees itself in a win-win situation: we either legislate and fulfill our campaign promises (which makes us look good to the voters), or we bear the brunt of every dirty trick and constitutional violation that Maduro and the rest of the corrupt Venezuelan state can throw at us (which also makes us look good to the voters). I'd argue that by essentially forcing Maduro's hand (and that of the Supreme Court) to violate the law in these really egregious ways, it becomes so much easier for the MUD to point to Maduro and the PSUV and say, "See? We told you that this is a gang of corrupt tyrants!". As an example, the history of the Venezuela threads in D&D (going back years now) has been the history of goons slowly realizing that far from being some kind of socialist paradise, Venezuela (specially under Maduro) is creeping towards total collapse and authoritarianism at an alarming rate. Maduro's actions in relation to the National Assembly are making this fact all the more obvious with each passing day. A third answer might be that the National Assembly simply has no other alternative. If they just throw in the towel and stop showing up to work, not only will the electorate lose all hope in the opposition, but the Maduro and the PSUV will "win". Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 5, 2016 |
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May 5, 2016 02:59
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Besides, if we don't even try to get things done legitimately, the only other option is to rise up against the government in rebellion. That means rising against the military and the circulos armados bands. No one really wants that because it would cause a bloodbath and the only possible victory is dependent on the military actually siding with the populace, something that hasn't happened in 16 years.
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May 5, 2016 14:18
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Taphreek posted:At this point why is the legislature even participating in the charade? Biding time until the country completely collapses and the people spontaneously rise up and cast off Maduro? Stalling while they work with the military, etc. behind the scenes to support a coup? Maduro and Co. have done so many blatantly anti-constitutional acts that it's incredible the legislature even bothers anymore. What is the intent of continuing to pass measures that are promptly ignored? What your assembly hasn't realized is that they are as powerful as they are willing to be. Enact legislation which benefits everyone outside PSUV and make poo poo happen. Move the capitol. Move the CNE to a town on the border with Colombia. Move everything and make everyone howl. Make them howl louder than PSUV. Make them howl until PSUV is beat. Have an issue with the Supreme Court? Legislate that the new Supreme Court meets somewhere under MUD control, and that as the current court has refused to meet, a new court has been appointed. Force PSUV's hand, force PSUV to show itself for what it is. Force PSUV to fire on the people.
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May 5, 2016 20:18
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