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Aithon posted:Wasn't the weird middle handle of N64 controllers just because they weren't sure if this new-fangled analog stick thing would be popular? I always assumed it was for the Z button.
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May 2, 2016 17:00
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I've warmed up slightly to SF0 now that I've beaten it (or one route of it and a few side missions.). I posted my thoughts in the chat thread, but for the most part I feel like the controls attempt to do something quite novel and interesting, but the mechanics of the game don't really benefit from the change in control. For every situation where I'd want to fly in one direction and shoot in another, I largely would just orient my ship to face a target anyway and play the game...well, like you play Star Fox. I think having the ship turn into a walker is quite cool and it lends some interesting dimensionality to levels and combat sequences. Turning into a walker to blow tick mines off the Great Fox was neat; having the final boss of my Star Fox flying shooting game have me spend 90 percent of the fight as a walker? Not so neat. My biggest thought even after I got used to the controls (which never quite feel "comfortable", even when you know more or less what to do) was "why" they had the controls work this way. What did they add to the core gameplay? I'd say there's a great sense of speed and scale with them--using your targeting computer to track a fast-moving target while you dodge around asteroids of enemy ships, that has a nice feel to it, but in execution it never quite feels comfortable. I ended up favoring one screen over the other, only looking away from my targeting computer if the game needed me to do some evasive manuevers. The worst aspect of the game isn't the controls, it's the fact that a good sixty percent of the game appears to be Star Fox 64 HD. The first level is nigh identical; the script is practically the same; the endgame "twist" to the plot is the same; you even fight the first boss of the 64 game as a late-game challenge. The game feels derivative of its own predecessor, and worse still in that it's another Star Fox sequel that is defined by gimmicks that detract rather than define the core gameplay. I don't understand why they won't just make a new "Star Fox" game. Do they really think a bombastic rail shooter with branching paths and skill-based secrets to unlock would be a tough sell? You even have the All-Range Mode sections where you could utilize the vehicle transformations or things like that, so why punctuate your short, fun shooter levels with long, cumbersome arena and gimmick stages? A complicated control scheme is not helped if that control scheme is swapped out for another every other level. In SF64, every stage tested me on the same basic fundamental mechanics: aiming, dodging, flying, with dog-fighting All-Range Mode sections to break up the progression without forcing me to learn a new set of mechanics. The thing is, despite all my gripes, I love Star Fox still. I love the aesthetic, I love the goofy voices, I love the sound effects and blowing up cool giant ships and robots and flying in space and underwater and using a tank to fight giant bug monsters. And Star Fox Zero clearly also loves Star Fox, and it's clearly a passion project full of people clearly intent to make the best game possible. Yet when you have gameplay challenges that feel like watered down versions of content that's over a decade old and several console generations past, it begs the question as to why put the focus on creating a challenge control scheme when you haven't even crafted a well-balanced and satisfying gameplay experience?
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May 2, 2016 17:29
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Do they really think a bombastic rail shooter with branching paths and skill-based secrets to unlock would be a tough sell? Yes and they're right.
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May 2, 2016 17:43
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Especially when Star Fox isn't a rail shooter 
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May 2, 2016 17:49
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Motto posted:Yes and they're right. Yes, absolutely Even aside from the complaints about the controls in Star Fox, it got dinged a lot for "being Star Fox" in reviews. Like there were reviews which straight-up said it made them wonder if they liked Star Fox at all. Even if it had completely traditional controls you'd still be getting that response.
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May 2, 2016 17:51
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, absolutely I disagree; I think if they hadn't needed to spend so much time trying to get a fundamentally flawed control scheme to work comfortably with any given player then they could have spent that time creating more varied and different levels. My favorite parts of SF0 are when it feels like Star Fox--the level where you go super fast and so can't waste time with the targeting computer, so you just zip around obstacles and shoot lasers at streams of oncoming enemies, that felt like a great Star Fox level, and not one that was aping a previous game. I think most people found it underwhelming to work so hard to master this control scheme, only to be given a handful of levels that they already played decades ago, instead of any attempt at something new. Everyone says that you can't do a new Star Fox game in the same style, but isn't somebody going to at least eventually TRY?
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May 2, 2016 17:56
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I disagree You're wrong. Again, this isn't a case of 'well maybe." Star Fox Zero didn't just get dinged for the controls. People who liked the controls dinged it for being Star Fox in certain cases. It's an example of why that style of game doesn't work as a full-price game anymore. 8-Bit Scholar posted:My favorite parts of SF0 are when it feels like Star Fox--the level where you go super fast and so can't waste time with the targeting computer, so you just zip around obstacles and shoot lasers at streams of oncoming enemies, that felt like a great Star Fox level, and not one that was aping a previous game. That level is a literal reference to a level from Star Fox 64.
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May 2, 2016 17:59
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You sound like you weren't trying at all. You say the controls doesn't enhance the game at all but then about how you weren't even using them, instead just ramming at enemies straight on. Like you didn't even try strafing an enemy.
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May 2, 2016 17:59
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ImpAtom posted:That level is a literal reference to a level from Star Fox 64. Yeah that's pretty much the Meteo Warp Gate in terms of speed and trippyness. Also while yeah there's a lot of derivative stuff going on I liked how Sector Gamma took the Sector Z battle against missiles and changed it up. Instead of defending Great Fox against missiles you're trying to prevent the missiles from reaching a teleporter, and at the same time a bunch of tick drones are also harassing the Great Fox. It was a great way to keep the tension of the original mission while also changing it up mechanically.
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May 2, 2016 18:13
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greatn posted:You sound like you weren't trying at all. You say the controls doesn't enhance the game at all but then about how you weren't even using them, instead just ramming at enemies straight on. Like you didn't even try strafing an enemy. I assuredly strafed plenty of times. Look, I feel pretty confident I "get" the controls, and I'm not saying they are the worst part of the game, merely that they make the experience more cumbersome than it needs be. And, once you've gotten comfortable with them, the game still feels like it's basically mirroring an older title. ImpAtom posted:That level is a literal reference to a level from Star Fox 64. Well that's even more disappointing, I'd forgotten about that one entirely. :/ Angry_Ed posted:Yeah that's pretty much the Meteo Warp Gate in terms of speed and trippyness. That was a fun mission, yes. One of the ones where the mechanics work nicely. It was a much needed improvement after the shitshow that was Zoness.
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May 2, 2016 18:30
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Angry_Ed posted:Also while yeah there's a lot of derivative stuff going on I liked how Sector Gamma took the Sector Z battle against missiles and changed it up. Instead of defending Great Fox against missiles you're trying to prevent the missiles from reaching a teleporter, and at the same time a bunch of tick drones are also harassing the Great Fox. It was a great way to keep the tension of the original mission while also changing it up mechanically. My favorite part about that level is that you can blast the drone missiles before they reach the Great Fox and get huge point bonuses for doing so
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May 2, 2016 18:32
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I disagree; I think if they hadn't needed to spend so much time trying to get a fundamentally flawed control scheme to work comfortably with any given player then they could have spent that time creating more varied and different levels. This isn't how game development works. Your main issue with additional levels/content is always going to be art assets and environmental stuff. It's likely that the people in charge of creating and scripting the levels had very little overlap with the team getting the Gamepad controls down. The controls are fine and let you do things that you could never have done in SF64 without constantly flying into buildings/terrain. Here are some legitimate issues I think the game has!
I bet fans of SF64 would have reviewed the game better if your first play through let you mostly stay in the Arwing. That would have let you really get a feel for how the motion controls work before you messed around with the new stuff.
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May 2, 2016 19:16
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I admit that I used the walker form all the time. I basically played the game like Macross and swapped back and forth whenever I needed to. It makes getting gold ranks on stages a lot easier.
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May 2, 2016 19:19
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I lol'd a bit when I checked Nintendo's stock a bit ago and the latest news story was titled "Nintendo's 5 Biggest WiiU Success Stories" and when you clicked it brought you to a 404 error. Masterful trolling.
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May 2, 2016 19:22
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Misandu posted:This isn't how game development works. Your main issue with additional levels/content is always going to be art assets and environmental stuff. It's likely that the people in charge of creating and scripting the levels had very little overlap with the team getting the Gamepad controls down. The controls are fine and let you do things that you could never have done in SF64 without constantly flying into buildings/terrain. I think this is well said and I agree, particularly about how jarring it is to constantly change control schemes. When the game's trailers first announced, I sort of thought that the game would let you do a traditional on-the-rails Arwing level, then when you replayed it, you could go off the rails to explore environments on the Walker. That's definitely not how it works in the main game. The final boss fight is probably the hardest boss fight with Andross yet, which isn't exactly saying much. At least it as a decent Star Fox-style boss fight, one of the very few. I actually dug that the Walker can do Bayonetta-style flip dodges; it would have been hilarious if they'd added a bullet time mechanic to reward correct dodges, although I bet that'd kill the game's flow.
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May 2, 2016 20:01
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Misandu posted:The controls are fine and let you do things that you could never have done in SF64 without constantly flying into buildings/terrain. In SF64, the things Zero asks you to do with the gamepad certainly are impossible, because the game never asked you to circle around an enemy and shoot off to the side using a second screen (or switching the second screen to the main screen and still lose the view around your fighter as you aim in a direction you're not even flying), to name one. Agreed! quote:I bet fans of SF64 would have reviewed the game better if your first play through let you mostly stay in the Arwing. Fans of Star Fox 64 would have reviewed the game better if it was better than Star Fox 64. You do stay in the Arwing for a majority of the game as is, the problem is that the actual execution of most of the Arwing levels is inconsistent in terms of actual quality. Again, just my opinion, feel free to disagree, get ready to type in a snide "nice meltdown" or whatever suits you. I can appreciate that the game has its very dedicated group of defenders here on SA, much like any other game that gets discussed around here, but some of you like to basically disregard ANY criticism of the controls with "lol they just work" or "You sound like you weren't trying at all." However, there's enough people out there who are saying just the opposite and even providing personal experiences as to why they don't work for them, and again some of you disregard that with "you are just terrible at the game give the controls a chance". Which I have. I've beaten the game, getting 2514 hits on my first completion of main mode, and I've yet to fire up Arcade mode because I just don't care about the game anymore. Star Fox Zero is a game that basically tries its hardest to live off of nostalgia people have for 64, but it then proceeds to mostly flounder about trying to justify to the player the existence of the Game Pad before being a good Star Fox game. I've seen it said here that the game couldn't be done with the traditional controls, and that they designed bosses around having the ability to aim with the gyroscope. I agree, they definitely designed the game around the Game Pad, and it suffers for it if reviews both "professionals" and regular users have anything to say about it. It's really telling that the best levels of the game are the ones that play the most like a level from 64, right down to having parts lifted wholesale from 64. I do agree, however, that Star Fox is a series that wouldn't push very many sales in its more traditional form on the Wii U. So, what makes anyone think that a series, already struggling for relevance after three games with mixed reception, would have suddenly been well received by the greater public using a control scheme like this one? On a system that has roundly failed to capture an audience anywhere close to the size its predecessor had? I'm gonna repeat something I've said before: Mario Kart 8 was basically just More Mario Kart, But Better, and that game is loving great (outside of a really lovely battle mode). Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel with every sequel/prequel/reboot, you just need to improve on it. I think it's the same path they should have taken with Zero. They may not have gotten more sales out of it, but they might have also not had one of the last major releases of the system getting panned both by those mean "journalists" and gamers who didn't care for what we actually got.
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May 2, 2016 20:07
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fivegears4reverse posted:In SF64, the things Zero asks you to do with the gamepad certainly are impossible, because the game never asked you to circle around an enemy and shoot off to the side using a second screen (or switching the second screen to the main screen and still lose the view around your fighter as you aim in a direction you're not even flying), to name one. Agreed! almost every single all range mode boss in 64 would be improved with zero's controls
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May 2, 2016 20:20
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Looper posted:almost every single all range mode boss in 64 would be improved with zero's controls Almost every single all-range mode boss would benefit from having a mobile gun system; this doesn't require a two-screen gyro set-up. You could have your laser tracks locked on targets, utilizing the lock-on system we now have in Zero, and keep it all on one screen.
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May 2, 2016 20:23
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I think this is well said and I agree, particularly about how jarring it is to constantly change control schemes. When the game's trailers first announced, I sort of thought that the game would let you do a traditional on-the-rails Arwing level, then when you replayed it, you could go off the rails to explore environments on the Walker. That's definitely not how it works in the main game. Thanks! I don't know how I would resolve the issue honestly. Giving you the option to be in the Arwing all the time would be pretty boring, but it would also be super tedious to be forced into doing training mode before each change. fivegears4reverse posted:In SF64, the things Zero asks you to do with the gamepad certainly are impossible, because the game never asked you to circle around an enemy and shoot off to the side using a second screen (or switching the second screen to the main screen and still lose the view around your fighter as you aim in a direction you're not even flying), to name one. Agreed! There was never a point in my first play through where I ever felt like I "needed" to shoot at something that wasn't directly in front of me. I almost completely ignored the motion controls the first time through, with some minor exceptions. You can just treat the Arwing 100% like you're playing SF64, even when they lock you into Target View. I definitely think forced target view is bad, they should at least give you the option to go back to default All Terrain Mode view by pressing the Target View button. Again the best example is the Landmaster boss fight, where they drop you into forced target view before you've ever had a chance to do All Terrain. It makes getting familiar with the controls very difficult! Which parts of the levels did you feel were inconsistently designed? There are definitely a few All Terrain levels where I think that the X/Y progress counter at the top sort of makes them feel less interesting than the SF64 counter-parts even, though I'm pretty sure SF64's levels worked the same way and just didn't tell you. Andross is a weird fight because nothing you know about playing SF64 is really relevant to that fight, so I think it ends up feeling frustrating. Aquarosa isn't available on your first play through so you haven't tried that stage but let me assure you that you aren't missing anything! I don't think you're having a meltdown, but I also think that I could play through all of the Arwing sections with motion controls completely disabled and be fine. Target mode sections would be weird, but still doable. Not Really An Edit But: Sure you could make this game a two stick shooter. It would feel awful and require you to use most of the buttons on the system for really basic stuff. Shoulders for sharp turns, ZL for Bombs probably, face buttons as N64 style C-Buttons. So now you can't brake and aim at the same time. How else could you do the controls that would 'feel' better than that?
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May 2, 2016 20:44
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fivegears4reverse posted:I can appreciate that the game has its very dedicated group of defenders here on SA, much like any other game that gets discussed around here, but some of you like to basically disregard ANY criticism of the controls with "lol they just work" or "You sound like you weren't trying at all." However, there's enough people out there who are saying just the opposite and even providing personal experiences as to why they don't work for them, and again some of you disregard that with "you are just terrible at the game give the controls a chance". Okay. So are you claiming there are two verisons of the game, one with controls that work and one that doesn't? Or that people who aren't having problems with the controls are magical? A lot of the control complaints seem to boil down to "I don't like them and won't fairly engage with them" which is fine, nobody is obligated to like controls, but there's a difference between disliking them and them not working and when people start going on about how it's impossible and confusing that sounds more like refusing to learn how they work. fivegears4reverse posted:Which I have. I've beaten the game, getting 2514 hits on my first completion of main mode, and I've yet to fire up Arcade mode because I just don't care about the game anymore. This I can agree with. It's a very bland game once you've finished it once and has little to really drive multiple playthroughs. I've played a little since then but I don't keep going back to it.] 8-Bit Scholar posted:Almost every single all-range mode boss would benefit from having a mobile gun system; this doesn't require a two-screen gyro set-up. You could have your laser tracks locked on targets, utilizing the lock-on system we now have in Zero, and keep it all on one screen. Star Fox Zero (and 64 to be fair) is already hilariously easy, this would just make it moreso. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:54 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 20:50
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ImpAtom posted:Okay. So are you claiming there are two verisons of the game, one with controls that work and one that doesn't? Or that people who aren't having problems with the controls are magical? Don't be a jerk about it, this isn't what I've claimed whatsoever. You don't think it's at all at least a little noteworthy that the game's controls are a point of so much contention, at all? You can SAY that "a lot" of people aren't giving the game a "fair chance" but what constitutes one for you. I unlocked all the levels, got something like 30 medals before setting the game aside to play other games. Is that "fair", or do you get to stuff more condescending poo poo down my throat and assume I'm saying things that I'm not? This is a very frustrating thing to discuss around here because of responses like this. I'll probably eat a ban at this point if I keep going so whatever.
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May 2, 2016 21:09
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Almost every single all-range mode boss would benefit from having a mobile gun system; this doesn't require a two-screen gyro set-up. You could have your laser tracks locked on targets, utilizing the lock-on system we now have in Zero, and keep it all on one screen. having a full lock on system sounds like an incredibly bad idea for this kind of game actually!
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May 2, 2016 21:13
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fivegears4reverse posted:You don't think it's at all at least a little noteworthy that the game's controls are a point of so much contention, at all? I think it's fair to say the controls are a point of contention. I also think it's fair to say that complaints about controls can come from a place of refusing to engage with the controls rather than them not working. This isn't exclusive to Star Fox Zero and indeed happens with a lot of games and I don't think there's anything objectionable about saying that someone who is refusing to engage with and learn the controls is probably being hyperbolic in their complaints they are impossible or don't work. And that doesn't mean that people are obligated to play a game they're not interested in engaging in but when the conversation turns to how the controls 'don't work' then yes, you're going to run into a barrier when people who've learned the controls go up against someone who didn't want to try. This isn't about you in particular (I'm pretty sure you understand the controls) but rather the overarching conversation. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:23 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 21:17
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Turning into a walker to blow tick mines off the Great Fox was neat; having the final boss of my Star Fox flying shooting game have me spend 90 percent of the fight as a walker? Not so neat. Good points all around, but tell me you're not using the Walker after destroying the hands? You should be in there as the Arwing, locked on and circle strafing while aiming independently with the game pad. You shouldn't be using the Walker the whole time. A lot of the independent aiming in all range mode boils down to circling the boss and taking your shots when open to the weak point.
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May 2, 2016 21:20
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's fair to say the controls are a point of contention. I also think it's fair to say that complaints about controls can come from a place of refusing to engage with the controls rather than them not working. This isn't exclusive to Star Fox Zero and indeed happens with a lot of games and I don't think there's anything objectionable about saying that someone who is refusing to engage with and learn the controls is probably being hyperbolic in their complaints they are impossible or don't work. when people dislike divisive control schemes, they point out how the controls can't be great because so many people complain about them, but i feel like they also can't be awful because so many people conversely praise them?
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May 2, 2016 21:39
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i think the weirdest thing control-wise for me in star fox zero has been learning to aim while turning and strafing at the same time in the landmaster but it feels really cool to me
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May 2, 2016 21:40
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citizenlowell posted:Good points all around, but tell me you're not using the Walker after destroying the hands? You should be in there as the Arwing, locked on and circle strafing while aiming independently with the game pad. You shouldn't be using the Walker the whole time. A lot of the independent aiming in all range mode boils down to circling the boss and taking your shots when open to the weak point. I found the Arwing to be too fast and it's a pain in the rear end to fly one way and look the other. It's much simpler to just get on the ground, his attacks can all be dodged by dashing forward and you can hug the wall to avoid the clapping move and pelt his palms with lasers.
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May 2, 2016 21:45
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FPzero fucked around with this message at 02:32 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 22:16
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Woooooo Thank you so much
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May 2, 2016 22:31
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Looper posted:when people dislike divisive control schemes, they point out how the controls can't be great because so many people complain about them, but i feel like they also can't be awful because so many people conversely praise them? Well you can fly and land a Boeing if you know how. The controls on an airliner aren't bad, but, they're complicated, though some people will pick up on cockpit controls faster than others. I don't believe the game is broken, just unintuitive as hell.  But this is a game, it should be like the air that we breathe to control. Barring games where the entire concept is to simulate complicated control schemes (flight sims, Affordable Space Adventures, etc.), it should be easy for people to pick up. They just created an unnecessary gate that enough people complain about to warrant concern. Spellman fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 22:33
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i think I preferred the poo poo analogies Motto fucked around with this message at 22:44 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 22:38
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Spellman posted:But this is a game, it should be like the air that we breathe to control. I guess I don't agree with that at all but a lot of the games I love have high barriers of execution both in terms of twitch and controls. Even something like Dark Souls left my dad fumbling with all the options but I wouldn't say it is bad.
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May 2, 2016 22:40
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Cancelled my previous order and snagged this, thanks a lot man
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May 2, 2016 22:41
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To engage seriously, just because it doesn't click with everybody or didn't work out in this case isn't a reason not to experiment. Perhaps they should've further refined the controls or provided a mode that rebalanced the game for 64-style control while still prodding you to give standard mode a shot, but gryo controls aren't necessarily better, worse, or harder to get the the hang of than standard schemes. Heck, I think for many they might be much more intuitive that stick aiming, which could be a major reason behind Splatoon's success in Japan.
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May 2, 2016 22:46
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Almost every single all-range mode boss would benefit from having a mobile gun system; this doesn't require a two-screen gyro set-up. You could have your laser tracks locked on targets, utilizing the lock-on system we now have in Zero, and keep it all on one screen. At this point it sounds like you would rather just have the game play itself.
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May 2, 2016 22:53
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I've seen people complain about the controls in Dark Souls, Monster Hunter, most Platinum games, and just about every fighting game, and the response is usually something along the lines of "you just need to practice, when the controls click, it's great!" and that's pretty widely accepted as the truth. Why is it that when someone makes the same point about a game like Star Fox it's no longer valid, while random strings of profanity or arguments that amount to "it's different, but it could have been not-different so it's objectively poo poo!" are considered reasonable reactions? Edit: Motto posted:To engage seriously, just because it doesn't click with everybody or didn't work out in this case isn't a reason not to experiment. Perhaps they should've further refined the controls or provided a mode that rebalanced the game for 64-style control while still prodding you to give standard mode a shot, but gryo controls aren't necessarily better, worse, or harder to get the the hang of than standard schemes. Heck, I think for many they might be much more intuitive that stick aiming, which could be a major reason behind Splatoon's success in Japan. I'm more accurate with an analog stick than a mouse. That's a result of countless hours of playing games with a controller, and not really playing a lot of games on PC. Even so, it still feels awkward to aim with a stick if I haven't played a shooter in a few months, and it'll take a few hours before I can aim properly again. With gyro controls I can aim more accurately and a lot faster than I ever could with the stick, and it always feels natural no matter how long it's been since the last time I played a game with gyro controls, and that's despite the fact that you can still count the games I've played that had gyro controls on one hand. I understand that it's not like that for everyone, but it's just a pain in the dick to see a bunch of whiny nerds piss and moan about how any game with gyro controls should be changed to their exact specifications, because they can never just accept that others might like the game the way it is, 'cause gently caress people who like something that isn't the status quo. LoveBoatCaptain fucked around with this message at 23:10 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 22:53
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I remember a bunch of people hated the controls in Kirby's Air Ride because they were too simple? Was that the big reason? But everyone else who stuck with the game just played City Trial anyway instead of the other racing modes. So really, what Star Fox Zero needed was a mode where you just cruise around an open-world Corneria with other people and different vehicles.
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May 2, 2016 22:56
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Didn't the Wii Sin and Punishment do really poorly, or did I imagine that?
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May 2, 2016 23:03
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mycot posted:Didn't the Wii Sin and Punishment do really poorly, or did I imagine that? Treasure is (effectively) dead now, so
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May 2, 2016 23:06
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All the giant posts about how bad the controls are have convinced me I'm too dumb to be bad at Star Fox.
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May 2, 2016 23:11
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