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Jenny Angel posted:My own recollection is that it's closer to the latter, but both of those endpoints miss the important context that this is a workday in a fictionalized downtown Manhattan that we're talking about, so even if it's the moderate position where the streets don't have much traffic and most of the office buildings have turned off their lights for the evening, that represents an oddly utopian departure from real-world dynamics. It's a companion to the later announcement that, oh no, Doomsday has touched down on Riker's, but thankfully we closed that place down years ago, the implication that one of Clark's most important victories is putting some background momentum behind those kinds of unspoken reforms to the labor and criminal justice systems. One gets the sense that if they seek Clark's monument, they might give looking around them a try While the societal shift angle is an interesting one to ponder, unless I've forgotten something I don't think that's actually supported by the film. That makes the comparison to how civilian evacuation is treated in AoU a faulty one, since you're effectively comparing something actually shown on screen in one film to fanfiction (no offense intended through use of the word) of another. The actual context of BvS makes it seem more likely that they didn't have time or just didn't want to deal with the question of civilians in that seen, so they handwaved it. Which in theory is fine, but in execution it came off as lazy and unintentionally hilarious.
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May 2, 2016 19:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Letting yourself get killed is suicide. Also, my bad Terrorist Fistbump, I thought you were complaining that your grandpa had wrong thoughts about Star Wars. The 'rear end in a top hat' comment was in jest either way.
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May 2, 2016 19:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well hold on; that makes perfect sense. The Ground Zero memorial is a huge park in the middle of the city's financial district, and it is clearly empty - unlike earlier scenes that show lots of people wandering around. The problem is the script.
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May 2, 2016 19:41
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:since you're effectively comparing something actually shown on screen in one film to fanfiction (no offense intended through use of the word) of another. I'm not sure where you're coming from here, given that "people have mostly gone home from work before the fight takes place" and "Riker's Island is not operational" are both facts that are explicitly part of the text. Is your criticism of the comparison down to telling vs. showing?
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May 2, 2016 19:44
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Jenny Angel posted:I'm not sure where you're coming from here, given that "people have mostly gone home from work before the fight takes place" and "Riker's Island is not operational" are both facts that are explicitly part of the text. Is your criticism of the comparison down to telling vs. showing? It's Stryker's Island, Jenny. (Which is just Metropolis's version of NYC's Rikers) Doesn't ruin your point or anything, imo, just wanted to point it out if you didn't know.
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May 2, 2016 19:48
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Jenny Angel posted:the implication that one of Clark's most important victories is putting some background momentum behind those kinds of unspoken reforms to the labor and criminal justice systems. I dunno, there were only "dozens killed". If we didn't shift society thanks to the 9/11 firemen, doubt a CEO is changing their profit projections for one guy and 1/12th the casualties.
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May 2, 2016 19:49
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Luckily that's not what happened to Obi Wan. Snowglobe of Doom posted:when he let Vader strike him down
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May 2, 2016 19:51
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MacheteZombie posted:Doomsday is standing on LexCorp tower when the line is spoken (Shot is of Gal Gadot looking at the in flight tv news feed). Well hang on again - according to Snowglobe, the line is 'nearly empty', which changes everything. Cooper also stresses that the creature only emerged 'moments ago', and that military aircraft are already on the scene. It's easy to forget that Cooper is playing a character, even if it's "Himself", and this character is both downplaying the inevitable loss of life while putting his faith in the US military - even though the imagery contradicts what he's saying. Wonder Woman obviously believes that the military cannot handle the situation.
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May 2, 2016 19:53
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Jenny Angel posted:I'm not sure where you're coming from here, given that "people have mostly gone home from work before the fight takes place" and "Riker's Island is not operational" are both facts that are explicitly part of the text. Is your criticism of the comparison down to telling vs. showing? My issue with the theory is that these things were caused by Superman, which I don't believe is supported by the text unless I've forgotten something.
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May 2, 2016 19:56
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:The actual context of BvS makes it seem more likely that they didn't have time or just didn't want to deal with the question of civilians in that seen, so they handwaved it. Which in theory is fine, but in execution it came off as lazy and unintentionally hilarious. Again, I work near and have friends in the Chicago Loop and while it isn't completely abandoned after business hours there are a bunch of bars/restaurants that close after happy hour and some which are flat out not open on weekends because it goes from densely populated to "not worth it to keep our business open" once everyone leaves the office. It depends where you are (Michigan Ave is the shopping district and stays pretty busy until shops close) but the relative population drops quickly. It's not as unrealistic as you think. Also the line isn't "this area is completely abandoned" it's "the area is mostly empty". You take an already dwindling population of people and throw in some weird electric storm and an hour later there are even less people than before.
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May 2, 2016 19:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well hang on again - according to Snowglobe, the line is 'nearly empty', which changes everything. Cooper also stresses that the creature only emerged 'moments ago', and that military aircraft are already on the scene. Snowglobe's quote is correct, I missed the "nearly" on my type up. I agree that Cooper is trying to control people's panic with his comments.
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May 2, 2016 20:00
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It's like when episodes of Power Rangers are saying the robot attacked the warehouse district.
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May 2, 2016 20:15
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Slugworth posted:Also, my bad Terrorist Fistbump, I thought you were complaining that your grandpa had wrong thoughts about Star Wars. The 'rear end in a top hat' comment was in jest either way.
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May 2, 2016 20:17
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:My issue with the theory is that these things were caused by Superman, which I don't believe is supported by the text unless I've forgotten something. Ah, sure. That part is definitely less explicit, and it relies on lines and images that aren't positioned directly against each other. It's moments like the pundit montage that Machete highlighted, the idea from the finale that his monument is all around us, the anxieties that Clark experiences about whether his heroism amounts to anything or if it's just gonna cause some horses to scream. It's the half of the equation that Pa Kent never considered, in life or in death - he was so wrapped up in understandable efforts to protect and caution his beloved son that he focused exclusively on the negative halo effects of his presence that he never thought of the positive ones. This same principle also informs Batman's later vow not to fail Clark in death the way he failed him in life. This is a guy who's spent years and years reveling in his worst self, and he tells us explicitly that it's Clark who's inspired him to turn over a new leaf And I mean, like, call that fanfiction if you want, since there's not a text crawl explaining that New York's most notorious jail was closed in part by the influence that Superman's presence had on his city? But like, this is what reading texts is all about - taking thematically linked points in a narrative and forming an understanding of what it means that they're all in there, all at once. "They're there on accident" is the null hypothesis and it's a perfectly fine one to hold if you're straight up not interested in that part of the text and prefer to focus on other things, but it's also the hypothesis that doesn't really move any discussion forward. This is CineD, I resigned myself to shrugging and moving on in response to any sort of "you're reading too much into this" point a long time ago
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May 2, 2016 20:18
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TFRazorsaw posted:It's like when episodes of Power Rangers are saying the robot attacked the warehouse district. You have activated the NERD CARD Which is actually related to the subject at hand so woo That little facet of Power Rangers only started in the Disney Era, specifically the latter Disney Era from around 2004 to 2009 or so. It was done in reaction to 9/11- many earlier episodes were censored to remove building destruction and the like because they explicitly did not take place at the abandoned warehouse district. The difference between the two is the tone of the works and the words used. They're not just 'The Warehouse District' in Power Rangers, they're the "ABANDONED Warehouse District". Absurdly safe areas for giant robot fights to happen. BvS sets up the docks as being the place Batman wanted to fight Superman and so he made sure there was no one there. The area where Doomsday first appears is never said to be totally empty of life either, just that most people had already left. Finally Strikers Island is just some random island where no one would have any reason to be anyways. Largely done in response to the reaction from Man of Steel but it was a Damned if they Do Damned if they Don't situation regardless. People who didn't like Man of Steel for its violence were always going to skewer this one no matter WHAT it did. Heroes fight in a crowded city again? Well clearly they haven't learned their lesson. Heroes don't fight in a crowded city again? Well clearly they're overcompensating and overreacting.
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May 2, 2016 20:31
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Also, hey Metropolites: when the big Kryptonian scout ship starts shooting lightning out of it that's your cue to get the gently caress ooooooooout....have y'all learned nothing? Edit: Burks is right tho, they were hosed no matter what they decided to do.
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May 2, 2016 20:32
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My friend and I laughed out loud when Bruce Wayne has to call his VP or whoever and tell him to evacuate the building while every employee is staring slackjawed out the window at the giant fuckoff death machine that is laying waste to the city and inching closer to them every second. Civillians in the DC universe are pea-brained lemmings that can't do anything without Superman's help.
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May 2, 2016 20:38
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Rurea posted:Civillians in the DC universe are pea-brained lemmings that can't do anything without Superman's help. It's not exclusive to DC.
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May 2, 2016 20:46
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One thing I wanna make clear before I stan for this part of Batman v Superman too hard: it's easily one of my least favorite parts of the movie and something I'd be glad to see excised (or redeemed in the Director's Cut PBUH, of course). It's mostly that it strikes me as a fairly deft and thoughtful response to some bullshit that never deserved to be addressed in the first place
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May 2, 2016 20:47
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Eh, as someone that works in a high story of an office building and is looking out right now, you mostly get a truncated viewpoint of random explosions and destruction around the city and wouldn't know if in or out would be the safer thing at the time (remember, the people on the streets were getting gravity slammed by the thing too). You'd be seeing some ground level explosions, and then some building destruction, all spread out, and have no idea what's happening. We have set evacuation drills and procedures NOW, but they were only instituted to this level post-911. There would be a ton of confusion as to procedure before "get the gently caress out" was ingrained in people's minds after the fact. Bruce had an outside view and could see the destruction drawing closer to the building and could thus warn them exactly what to do from that perspective.
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May 2, 2016 20:50
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Jenny Angel posted:Ah, sure. That part is definitely less explicit, and it relies on lines and images that aren't positioned directly against each other. It's moments like the pundit montage that Machete highlighted, the idea from the finale that his monument is all around us, the anxieties that Clark experiences about whether his heroism amounts to anything or if it's just gonna cause some horses to scream. It's the half of the equation that Pa Kent never considered, in life or in death - he was so wrapped up in understandable efforts to protect and caution his beloved son that he focused exclusively on the negative halo effects of his presence that he never thought of the positive ones. This same principle also informs Batman's later vow not to fail Clark in death the way he failed him in life. This is a guy who's spent years and years reveling in his worst self, and he tells us explicitly that it's Clark who's inspired him to turn over a new leaf I mean I don't necessarily disagree with this, as I said in my initial response it's an interesting reading to consider. I just don't feel it says anything substantive on "the question of civilian evacuations" because it's ultimately still a sidestep: "no civilians were in harms way because Jesus inspired them to get off work at 3:00" naturally leads to the follow-up question of "ok, what happens when Doomsday attacks at noon."
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May 2, 2016 20:50
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They should've doubled down on civilian endangerment, honestly. No backing down.
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May 2, 2016 20:52
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:They should've doubled down on civilian endangerment, honestly. No backing down. I agree, I thought the complaints on MoS were a bit hyperbolic in that regard.
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May 2, 2016 20:55
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I've seen Power Rangers, Burkion. I know when they started doing it. I don't understand why you need to nitpick a joke to say which era of the show started doing it.
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May 2, 2016 20:59
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I mean I don't necessarily disagree with this, as I said in my initial response it's an interesting reading to consider. I just don't feel it says anything substantive on "the question of civilian evacuations" because it's ultimately still a sidestep: "no civilians were in harms way because Jesus inspired them to get off work at 3:00" naturally leads to the follow-up question of "ok, what happens when Doomsday attacks at noon." Ah, makes sense! Apologies for the misinterpretation. As far as what happens if Doomsday attacks at noon, I mean, the answer in the broad sense is that Zod engaged the World Engine around I think the early afternoon. Whether the scope of that is repeated in full the next time isn't a core issue here, because the answer to "But what if that happened again?" is "It didn't", because that's not particularly what Batman v Superman is interested in exploring BravestOfTheLamps posted:They should've doubled down on civilian endangerment, honestly. No backing down. Agreed completely. Like I said, what they went with in BvS was a pretty thoughtful effort at solving a problem that didn't need solving in the first place Jenny Angel fucked around with this message at 21:02 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 20:59
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Doomsday grabs a nearby civilian and bodily tears them in half, spraying red mist onto his jowls as he begins to swing the ragged lump of legflesh into Wonder Woman's shield, leaving behind grisly smears. Batman leans over, pulls back his cowl and vomits.
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May 2, 2016 21:02
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Electromax posted:Doomsday grabs a nearby civilian and bodily tears them in half, spraying red mist onto his jowls as he begins to swing the ragged lump of legflesh into Wonder Woman's shield, leaving behind grisly smears. Batman leans over, pulls back his cowl and vomits. Immediately afterwards, Doomsday begins to growl - or speak? Our heroes are taken aback, unsure of how to react to the creature's apparent intelligence. Slowly, surely, the words he repeats in guttural tones become clearer: "BUY ME BONESTORM, OR GO TO HELL"
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May 2, 2016 21:07
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TFRazorsaw posted:I've seen Power Rangers, Burkion. I know when they started doing it. I don't understand why you need to nitpick a joke to say which era of the show started doing it. It's an actually interesting comparison because the two do it for some what similar reasons is why. Just where Power Rangers reacted to the actual 9/11, BvS was forced to react to its own 9/11 it preformed in Man of Steel. It falls apart past the surface level because of the sheer difference in the two properties but they do have linking things that are worth looking at. Power Rangers is a children's series so of course they double down on the NO ONE IS GETTING HURT message post 9/11. Batman V Superman was just screwed no matter what they did because of the uproar.
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May 2, 2016 21:09
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:They should've doubled down on civilian endangerment, honestly. No backing down. Agreed. All this hemming and hawing about how many people the Avengers saved and whatnot is the realm of grandmas, in my opinion.
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May 2, 2016 23:14
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Also, hey Metropolites: when the big Kryptonian scout ship starts shooting lightning out of it that's your cue to get the gently caress ooooooooout....have y'all learned nothing? Luthor creates Doomsday in a secret bunker out in an base in the middle of nowhere. Since he's super rich, he's bought up miles and miles of the surrounding area to make sure no one comes snooping around. Since he's paranoid about anyone truly finding out what's being created there, he keeps strict control over who has access and when they have access. When he decides to unleash Doomsday, he tricks Batman and Superman into coming out there, so he can spring Doomsday upon them without warning.
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May 2, 2016 23:28
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Just saw an ad for Pizza Hut that was also an ad for Civil War. Evidently Iron Man and Captain America are actually fighting about which toppings to put on their pizza.
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May 2, 2016 23:35
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Just saw an ad for Pizza Hut that was also an ad for Civil War. Evidently Iron Man and Captain America are actually fighting about which toppings to put on their pizza. *scoff* Typical Marvel bullshit.
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May 2, 2016 23:46
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The after-commercial sequence is Thanos smiling wickedly and eating a calzone.
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May 2, 2016 23:48
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The after-commercial sequence is Thanos smiling wickedly and eating a calzone. This is just a drat commercial for more Pizza Hut!
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May 2, 2016 23:55
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It's ok though, the pizza is on sale for $5 so they can just get two!
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May 3, 2016 00:03
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Godzilla '14 pointedly does not do this, which I like a lot. Yah, I mean lets get real here, if evacuations ever happened as efficiently as they do in Comic Book movies you'd need to be drilling the populace weekly. Real evacuations are messy and scary poo poo, 100% controlled chaos that only becomes more chaotic as the scale goes up. Mistakes are still to this day made evacuating ships with less than 100 people on board with trained individuals and drilling, let alone cities occupied by millions. It's pure escapism to insist bloodless destruction with the evacuation as a complete success. And that's fine if you're into it, but it is what it is and reduces the conflict to toys smashing against each other with a light show. Hell, a pretty standard saying I've heard discussing this with captains is that saving the ship is more important than saving people, because saving the ship is more certain to save people, it's the best lifeboat you have and evacuations are always inherently risky.
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May 3, 2016 00:11
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Renoistic posted:So when Marvel does it it's a cliche, when DC does it it's a parody? It's pretty obvious they wanted to deflect the criticism MoS received. When Marvel shoots multiple big crowd scenes where every explosion misses a person, yes. Or when they shoot a scene where a city is lifted into the sky, but there's only one family in danger and Iron Man can rescue them, yes. When Snyder, the guy who did 300 and Sucker Punch, contrasts scenes of apocalyptic destruction in the centre of a major with one idiot going "oh, there's not many people" yes. It feels like a sarcastic recreation of 'oh, it was evacuated, don't worry.' Especially when the entire film is structured around a reaction to the destruction in the last movie. Like, sure, the hundreds of buildings have fewer people. It's still downtown Metropolis and rush hour only just ended. It's not a Marvel/DC thing. It's that the Avengers movies are staggeringly ineptly made Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:The actual context of BvS makes it seem more likely that they didn't have time or just didn't want to deal with the question of civilians in that seen, so they handwaved it. Which in theory is fine, but in execution it came off as lazy and unintentionally hilarious. Why are people always so sure they're the one that invented the joke in the film? .
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May 3, 2016 00:14
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I'm just gonna say it. I don't give a gently caress what the civilians in the background are doing. I think it's really silly to harp on it. I never even noticed the lack of civilians in Avengers until someone pointed it out, because I didn't care about the fates of unnamed people irrelevant to the story. It seemed silly to speculate on the theoretical population count of a fictional place. The important plot point is this: Aliens attack New York, Avengers fight aliens, Avengers beat aliens. I feel similarly when people bring up all the different ways that Superman could have supposedly stopped Zod instead of killing him. The point of the scene is that Superman felt like he had no choice but to kill Zod. Nitpicking about the circumstances of it just seems like a waste of time. Also while I'm spouting unpopular opinions, whenever people say these movies are being shot like TV shows, I think to myself, "good." TV shows are way better than movies now.
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May 3, 2016 00:28
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Also while I'm spouting unpopular opinions, whenever people say these movies are being shot like TV shows, I think to myself, "good." TV shows are way better than movies now. They're not talking about good TV shows, which are shot like films.
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May 3, 2016 00:30
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:They're not talking about good TV shows, which are shot like films. Or, in the case of Hannibal, shot like an art installation.
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May 3, 2016 00:31
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