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LoveBoatCaptain posted:I've seen people complain about the controls in Dark Souls, Monster Hunter, most Platinum games, and just about every fighting game, and the response is usually something along the lines of "you just need to practice, when the controls click, it's great!" and that's pretty widely accepted as the truth. Why is it that when someone makes the same point about a game like Star Fox it's no longer valid, while random strings of profanity or arguments that amount to "it's different, but it could have been not-different so it's objectively poo poo!" are considered reasonable reactions? To play devil's advocate, sometimes there a games where even if you can theoretically get used to them, people could still refer to them as bad controls. Just think of any game you think is crap or poo poo that also has bad controls, there's probably a bunch of people out there that HAVE gotten used to those controls, but their existence (usually) doesn't stop you or anyone else to in theory still think it's bad. My point is that it's a spectrum of tolerance that everyone individually has when it comes to this stuff, so one game that does a couple things differently may not piss you off, but something else that does a lot more differently might set you off the edge. So I don't think there's much use in trying to argue any meta-points about complaints about control issues.
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May 2, 2016 23:50
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My favorite posts are when people who dislike the controls say that anecdotal evidence of people liking them shouldn't count, before giving their own anecdotes about why they don't work.
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May 2, 2016 23:51
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Quest For Glory II posted:Not selling at a loss is a little ominous, i'm gonna dial back my expectations for the hardware of the NX now Nintendo never comes out of the gate selling at a loss. Remember the 'new 3DS' disaster?
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May 2, 2016 23:56
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The Wii U launched at a loss.
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May 2, 2016 23:58
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I thought the New 3DS did ok
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May 3, 2016 00:00
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They didn't intend to sell the WiiU for a loss either, that's just the way the cost overruns and the strong yen cookie crumbled. It's 2017 though, you can take advantage of newer more efficient manufacturing and technology to make a system more powerful than PS4 and sell it for $299 and not take a loss, it's mainly a matter of "what is the brand new concept" and how much that costs.
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May 3, 2016 00:01
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Rogue Squadron 2 is for my money still the undisputed king of space shooters though and it's a drat shame it will probably never be rereleased.
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May 3, 2016 00:02
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LoveBoatCaptain posted:I've seen people complain about the controls in Dark Souls, Monster Hunter, most Platinum games, and just about every fighting game, and the response is usually something along the lines of "you just need to practice, when the controls click, it's great!" and that's pretty widely accepted as the truth. Why is it that when someone makes the same point about a game like Star Fox it's no longer valid Because the most common complaint about Star Fox I hear besides the controls is it's length. You've named two long action-RPGs, a genre built on endless competitive replayabity, and... Well, misrepresented Platinum's character-based brawlers (which are easy to pick up and play but take a lot of effort to learn all the tricks, excluding W101 which shares some design difficulties with Star Fox, weirdly enough .) "It took five hours to get a handle on the controls of this fifty hour game" is a lot less damning then "it took five hours to get a handle on the controls of this five hour game." Which is something I'm hearing a lot for SFZ. Star Fox is traditionally built around many short play sessions, but it's very easy to see people being done with SFZ after just one run if they're still struggling with the controls by the first credits crawl. It's perfectly possible for a game to have design which adds a ton to the game once you cope with it and also take way too long to actually teach the player to cope and feel like the game is extremely lacking because you're fighting the game itself much to notice the joy of the experience and can't be bothered to give it a second look later and it's sounding like SFZ is falling into that camp for a lot of people. And their experience is not invalidated by by someone else having an amazing time going through the game again with new eyes once everything clicks. That's part of the design cost of making a game inaccessible at the surface level, no matter what is gained in depth the choices made gained from it.
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May 3, 2016 00:08
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Aithon posted:Wasn't the weird middle handle of N64 controllers just because they weren't sure if this new-fangled analog stick thing would be popular? actually it was there so you could hold the controller
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May 3, 2016 00:15
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8-Bit Scholar posted:The worst aspect of the game isn't the controls, it's the fact that a good sixty percent of the game appears to be Star Fox 64 HD. The first level is nigh identical; the script is practically the same; the endgame "twist" to the plot is the same; you even fight the first boss of the 64 game as a late-game challenge. The game feels derivative of its own predecessor, and worse still in that it's another Star Fox sequel that is defined by gimmicks that detract rather than define the core gameplay. This line kinda sticks out to me because every single star fox game has been defined by gimmicks, between the first one's "3d polygons???" to 64 having a 30 minute long video dedicated to how mindbending the rumble pack and control stick are. Zero using this as an attempt to push the gamepad more is basically right in line with the rest of the series.
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May 3, 2016 00:19
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Spellman posted:Well you can fly and land a Boeing if you know how. The controls on an airliner aren't bad, but, they're complicated, though some people will pick up on cockpit controls faster than others. I don't believe the game is broken, just unintuitive as hell. i mean, i went into star fox zero expecting the controls to have a learning curve but they largely didn't. the landmaster in all-range mode was pretty much the only thing i didn't find immediately intuitive
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May 3, 2016 00:19
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i would like to also submit the world ends with you, kid icarus uprising, wonderful 101, and skyward sword to my bizarro gaming portfolio
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May 3, 2016 00:20
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There are people in this world that think Sonic 06 controls like a dream and actually like that game so uh anything can "click". I just think it's more obnoxious seeing the same 3 or so people get seemingly mad as all hell when someone says the controls are bad for them or telling people "you didn't even TRY to like them." Rude as h*ck E: I think one of my biggest complaints about the game is during the final boss James won't shut the gently caress up about HEY SON WHY NOT USE... MOTION CONTROLS?? TRY LOOKING AT THE WII U GAMEPAD'S COCKPIT VIEW. Like shut the hell up dad you're kind of taking me out of it and also I'm at the final boss I think I know about the controls.
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May 3, 2016 00:24
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in my opinion if you have a kirby avatar you shouldnt be allowed to cuss
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May 3, 2016 00:39
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:There are people in this world that think Sonic 06 controls like a dream and actually like that game so uh anything can "click". that's kind of a bad faith argument if we were irl friends i'd wear aviators and take you under my arwing, my son
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May 3, 2016 00:45
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Like shut the hell up dad you're kind of taking me out of it and also I'm at the final boss I think I know about the controls. he's saying that for game critics except some might not even get to that point
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May 3, 2016 00:48
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greatn posted:Rogue Squadron 2 is for my money still the undisputed king of space shooters though and it's a drat shame it will probably never be rereleased. Such a shame the completed Wii release of this game was canceled.
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May 3, 2016 01:13
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People saying that SF0 just has a steep learning curve just make me want to try it more Feels great when a game like that clicks, like W101
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May 3, 2016 01:30
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Some people say Donkey Kong Country 64 controlled horribly. And they're right. I don't know how people 100% it back in the day.
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May 3, 2016 01:34
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Viewtiful Jew posted:Some people say Donkey Kong Country 64 controlled horribly. I did it because I was 10 and had nothing better to do
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May 3, 2016 01:37
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Looper posted:i would like to also submit the world ends with you, kid icarus uprising, wonderful 101, and skyward sword to my bizarro gaming portfolio Same Maybe I'm just good at adapting to weird control schemes
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May 3, 2016 01:40
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greatn posted:They didn't intend to sell the WiiU for a loss either, that's just the way the cost overruns and the strong yen cookie crumbled. I'm actually wondering, is this possible? Maybe this is more of a neogaf question, but I can't imagine anything being significantly stronger than PS4 actually costing that much less. Is the PS4 now being sold at profit? That'd make sense I guess with that statement if it were true.
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May 3, 2016 01:43
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Viewtiful Jew posted:Some people say Donkey Kong Country 64 controlled horribly. this is the point where the game turned into a nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npuuTBlEb1U
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May 3, 2016 01:56
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sharrrk posted:in my opinion if you have a kirby avatar you shouldnt be allowed to cuss an idea conveyed through cusses is a like a house made out of a really flashy building material. but the material is lazy and boring and not really good to build with. so don't
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May 3, 2016 02:03
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I keep missing the #FE special edition. 
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May 3, 2016 02:16
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Ventana posted:I'm actually wondering, is this possible? Maybe this is more of a neogaf question, but I can't imagine anything being significantly stronger than PS4 actually costing that much less. Is the PS4 now being sold at profit? That'd make sense I guess with that statement if it were true. It all depends on what parts they decide to use, PS4 was sold at cost and now for a profit because they use relatively cheap mass produced amd chipsets that are still being made. The Wii U has gotten more expensive to produce because barely anyone but Nintendo are asking for PowerPC and resistive touchscreens so there are fewer places to manufacture them.
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May 3, 2016 02:27
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alf_pogs posted:this is the point where the game turned into a nightmare:
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May 3, 2016 02:39
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Takoluka posted:I keep missing the #FE special edition. Don't worry friend, you'll get it someday
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May 3, 2016 02:42
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The controls are a problem because there's not too much replayability. I mean yeah there are alternate routes and whatnot but I assume (note: I don't own the game) it doesn't play any differently; there's no multiplayer dogfighting. What's the point in asking people to struggle with the controls when by the time they have a grip on them, the game is over? People struggled with the gyro on splatoon for a bit, there was a learning curve, but it was rewarding because you could use those skills in the online multiplayer. Star Fox Zero, to me, an interested bystander contemplating a purchase and with no love of the old star fox games, is like Splatoon with only the single player campaign and no multiplayer, and honestly, like a lot of Nintendo's recent output, does not look like an amazing value proposition (hence why they have been dropping prices for certain games and throwing things like Guard into the bundle for others?).
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May 3, 2016 05:43
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Rabelais D posted:What's the point in asking people to struggle with the controls when by the time they have a grip on them, the game is over? It's a Star Fox game. It is expected you will replay the stages going for high scores and going for a high score involves mastering the controls. Like it's specifically designed as an arcade-style shooter where replaying for high scores is a thing.
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May 3, 2016 05:46
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ImpAtom posted:It's a Star Fox game. It is expected you will replay the stages going for high scores and going for a high score involves mastering the controls. Like it's specifically designed as an arcade-style shooter where replaying for high scores is a thing. Is there a leader board for high scores? The only disappointing thing about Punch-Out!! Wii was that there was no leader board for times.
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May 3, 2016 06:53
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There's Miiverse, The Leaderboards Of Fun.
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May 3, 2016 07:01
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Rabelais D posted:The controls are a problem because there's not too much replayability. I mean yeah there are alternate routes and whatnot but I assume (note: I don't own the game) it doesn't play any differently; there's no multiplayer dogfighting. What's the point in asking people to struggle with the controls when by the time they have a grip on them, the game is over? People struggled with the gyro on splatoon for a bit, there was a learning curve, but it was rewarding because you could use those skills in the online multiplayer. Star Fox Zero, to me, an interested bystander contemplating a purchase and with no love of the old star fox games, is like Splatoon with only the single player campaign and no multiplayer, and honestly, like a lot of Nintendo's recent output, does not look like an amazing value proposition (hence why they have been dropping prices for certain games and throwing things like Guard into the bundle for others?). did people complain about star fox 64's lack of replayability? e: like for real i wanna know how people reacted to 64 being a remake of the original
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May 3, 2016 07:58
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SF64 is only nominally a remake of the original game plus it features lots of new (or new to people who didn't play SF2 ie everyone) elements. I don't think it betrayed anyone's expectations of what a sequel to SF on true 3D hardware would look/play like. EDIT: yes, people complained about the length & simplicity of SF64 even back then, just not to the same degree. PaletteSwappedNinja fucked around with this message at 08:17 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 08:15
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alf_pogs posted:this is the point where the game turned into a nightmare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF45vCTESVc
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May 3, 2016 08:27
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ImpAtom posted:I guess I don't agree with that at all but a lot of the games I love have high barriers of execution both in terms of twitch and controls. Even something like Dark Souls left my dad fumbling with all the options but I wouldn't say it is bad. Well you like the game though, and it didn't take you long to grasp the controls of it, so fly high You picked the controls of this game up faster than many people in the thread did, even the people who like the game and controls, so your opinion is very fair. To me a complex control scheme can work in certain video games, but it really doesn't gel well with what we've come to expect from Star Fox. I feel like a mom playing this game honestly, I suck. I played it with my buddy and he fell asleep watching me try and do the Hoff mission with the crab. I died like 3 times, I am truly awful Anyways I'm glad some people are finally talking about what they like/hate about the controls because it's such a hard topic to really explain
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May 3, 2016 09:47
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Today is the anniversary of Nintendo Gamecube's PAL launch in 2002. That's six months from the US/JP release, if you were curious.
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May 3, 2016 09:58
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iirc the launch titles were Luigi's Mansion, Wave Race, Monkeyball and, uh, something else?
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May 3, 2016 10:15
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While we're on the subject of Star Fox Zero, the parts on Titania where the star ship debris is crashing on the planet is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.Sakurazuka posted:iirc the launch titles were Luigi's Mansion, Wave Race, Monkeyball and, uh, something else? Nope, that's it.
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May 3, 2016 10:16
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Super Monkey Ball might be the best launch title of all time.
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May 3, 2016 10:34
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