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kid sinister posted:Most of the code is overkill. The depth is to protect anyone digging nearby. There are several circumstances where you don't need to dig down the entire 24" though. Look up table 300.5 in the NEC. Still, 24" is the maximum depth. I see what you mean. http://www.xwalk.com/images/Table_300.5-Min_Cover_Reqts.pdf Though the table says 18" for non-metallic conduit. I guess I can just suck it up and hand dig a 18" trench. I only have 20' or so to dig. So if I want the ability to put a 100amp panel in my garage in the future, and have a run of about 75ft, it appears I need 1 AWG THHN. Is that right? Also, would it be dumb to take the conduit up the post of my patio roof and along the joists and down the exterior wall? Doing that would save me from having to cut like 15' of concrete.
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Apr 25, 2016 14:13
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Hashtag Banterzone posted:I see what you mean. No more than 360 degrees of bend between pull points. For ease of pulling and other stuff, have your conduit stub out of the ground and put a junction box on that patio post somewhere convenient. If you've got a trencher, you can just trench around to where your panel is, assuming that doesn't wreck all your landscaping or whatever. Wait until you're 15' in on that 20' and your once-eighteen-inches is just shy of twelve because digging ditches sucks and you think to yourself "I should have just rented a trencher for a day."
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Apr 26, 2016 15:14
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:No more than 360 degrees of bend between pull points. For ease of pulling and other stuff, have your conduit stub out of the ground and put a junction box on that patio post somewhere convenient. If you've got a trencher, you can just trench around to where your panel is, assuming that doesn't wreck all your landscaping or whatever. Yeah I just transplanted some plants yesterday and the soil is pretty rocky. I think I'm just gonna do rigid metal conduit in a 6" trench. Thanks for the tip on the junction box. Can someone proof my math? To future proof for a 50A car charging circuit and a 20A lights and outlet circuit, it looks like I need 4 AWG THHN for a 90ft run. From the tables I'm looking at that means I need 1" conduit to get the 3 wires and the ground.
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Apr 26, 2016 17:06
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Is it legal (or wise) to use rigid compression couplings underground? I never used them, at all, but I googled and they exist (expensive though). If not how you gonna cut and thread the end of your run to turn up? Piece together a bunch of nipples lol? angryrobots fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 17:30
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Hashtag Banterzone posted:Yeah I just transplanted some plants yesterday and the soil is pretty rocky. I think I'm just gonna do rigid metal conduit in a 6" trench. Thanks for the tip on the junction box. If you have that many rocks, get a pick. Use it to bust up the dirt, then use a shovel to scoop out the pieces. If your soil is that bad and you're a gardener, then you might want to invest in a hori hori. Imagine a combat garden knife. It's a single tool that can dig, pry, cut and saw. I absolutely love mine and so has everyone I've recommended them to. They're also great if you have a lot of trees and your garden is full of roots.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:39
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Rent a Trencher. Future-proofing is 2x 2" PVC pipes in the ground 24" deep, with rigid 90s and SCH80 risers to 18" above the ground. Anything else is going to be hoping that what you have in there is enough for while you're living there in the next 10 years or so.
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Apr 27, 2016 14:27
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Hey, underground conduit chat. I'm thinking of running PVC from our house to the barn, which would be a 150' run. One 15A (maybe 20A) circuit is enough, just lighting and battery trickle chargers. How screwed would I be if I wanted to run data out there at some point? I do have some portion of a 1000' spool of Cat5 shielded twisted pair (not UTP), but is there any way that would work reliably in the same conduit as 110VAC? On the other hand, it would amount to like $40 worth of conduit for a separate run, so maybe it's not worth it, though I was considering trenching with a sub-soiler since I have a tractor to use it with. This leaves a narrow groove 18-24" deep, which would be handy for a single run but might be tricky for spacing two runs a consistent distance apart. Anyone have experience running STP or similar along with power? One Day Fish Sale fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 17:52
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One Day Fish Sale posted:On the other hand, it would amount to like $40 worth of conduit for a separate run, so maybe it's not worth it, though I was considering trenching with a sub-soiler since I have a tractor to use it with. This leaves a narrow groove 18-24" deep, which would be handy for a single run but might be tricky for spacing two runs a consistent distance apart. Code aside if you have the ground open just run a second conduit for $40. Then you don't have to deal with HV and LV stuff sharing conduit at all. Slap a small POE switch out there and you have yourself wifi, a phone, and security camera all without needing to install any further 120V+ outlets. Make sure you properly terminate the STP. It's been a long time since I looked at it but as I recall you have to make sure your switch/patchpanel connects the grounding correctly from the STP jacket + STP RJ45 connector. A single STP bulkhead and a proper grounding strap on a used 1U metal patch panel is likely the easiest and cheapest method. Outdoor rated POE cameras are had for around $120 from like Hikvision, just make sure it is the US market version.
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Apr 27, 2016 18:22
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One Day Fish Sale posted:Hey, underground conduit chat. I'm thinking of running PVC from our house to the barn, which would be a 150' run. One 15A (maybe 20A) circuit is enough, just lighting and battery trickle chargers. Low voltage isn't allowed to share a conduit with mains voltage. That's to protect whoever is working on the low voltage from getting shocked. It also helps keep interference to a minimum. Regarding data cables, that's a good thing. They also make cat5 rated for direct burial. I would use that underground instead, even inside conduit. I'd also recommend something a bit larger than 120v 20A out there. You may want to run a welder out there someday. Finally, 150 feet out is enough to start worrying about voltage drop. You may have to run larger cables just to compensate.
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Apr 27, 2016 19:14
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Thanks, makes sense about unexpected line voltage on low voltage wiring. Regarding upsizing later, that's why I was thinking conduit instead of direct burial, though I don't foresee ever putting big or many circuits out there since it's a pole building on dirt (and we have a 50' x 60' concrete slab ready for building a proper shop/storage building). Though that's what everybody says. Voltage drop, yeah, definitely sizing up according to whatever calculator or electrician friends recommend. Wait, holy, #6 copper for a 20A circuit (150')? Does that seem right?
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Apr 27, 2016 19:26
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If you don't want more than a 3% drop at full load (or more during motor startup surges), yes. #10 is a 6% drop which is still pretty reasonable if you aren't going to be pushing close to 20A very often.
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Apr 28, 2016 00:16
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I'm looking at fixing some old issues around the house, mainly replacing extension cord. How much can I run off one 20 amp breaker, and 12awg wire? State is AL, and the house itself is 126 years old now. I'd like to put some wire in conduit on the side of the house, since it's heart of pine and not easily drilled through. Right now, it has some 12-2 stapled to the side of the house, but from the look of it, it's not UF rated, not going to a weather resistant outlet outdoors, and that's what the extension cord is plugged into. I've already bought an outdoor WR and TR outlet box with GCFI WR/TR outlet, and cover, and am getting ready to put it in. Since that one is GCFI, I can put it out and let all the ones after it have the GCFI protection. Ideally, I'd like to put 2 more outlets outside, after that one, and 4 motion lights as well. All of them have 2 lights each. Each motion light uses CFL lights, about 30w each (60w / fixture). http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-12-2-Gray-Solid-UF-B-W-G-Cable-13055955/202316281 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-12-2-Black-White-Green-Solid-THHN-Tri-Wire-59318201/206205907 I'd like to use 1/2 PVC, water tight, above the ground by 2ft, covered by the eves a little bit. Which would be best for what I need?   A brief idea of layout above. Would this be an okay way to have a junction so that I can keep the main stretch going, but lower/raise it to a light or outlet?  And for power usage, the outlets would not have much use. Occasionally maybe hedge trimmers, a battery tender for a car, pressure washer, lights, or maybe basic wired drill.
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Apr 29, 2016 09:05
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uapyro posted:
You can run 20 amps worth of stuff. Unless AL has changed the code requirements, all general use outlets are part of the general load calculation for your house, so you can have an unlimited amount of them on the circuit. That being said, if you know what you plan on using the outlets for, and you know how many lights are on the circuit, you can get an idea of how much current the circuit would be using: Current (I) = Power (P)/Voltage (V) So a 60W fixture at 120V would use 0.5A. Of course, this oversimplifies things, since the current use could be out of phase with the voltage, and might be out of phase with other things on the circuit, but that would probably get you close enough for a 20 A branch circuit. Regarding the wire, if you are using conduit, you should use the THHN/THWN wire in the conduit, not the UF cable. I'm not positive you can run UF along the outside of the house (I assume this depends on how you define "subject to physical damage"), but my preference is to run conduit. If you want to splice conductors at a T type conduit body (the junction you showed), the actual volume needs to be marked on it. Assuming you have six #12 conductors spliced together (3 each) and a #12 ground wire (this just counts once), I believe the volume needs to be at least 15.75 cu. in., but don't quote me on that. If you don't splice in the box, though, you can run as many conductors as allowed by the conduit size.
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Apr 29, 2016 15:37
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Special A posted:You can run 20 amps worth of stuff. Unless AL has changed the code requirements, all general use outlets are part of the general load calculation for your house, so you can have an unlimited amount of them on the circuit. That being said, if you know what you plan on using the outlets for, and you know how many lights are on the circuit, you can get an idea of how much current the circuit would be using: The box requirement is calculated against the size of conduit. Assuming larger than he needs for the 7 #12 wires above, on a T, you take the largest conduit size for the angle (let's go with 3/4) times 8 plus the size of remaining conduit connections (1.5 for a T) would be 7.5 cubic inches required size to do the junction. That's pretty tight to work in so getting a standard 18 cu. Inch box would leave plenty of room.
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May 3, 2016 12:57
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Special A posted:Regarding the wire, if you are using conduit, you should use the THHN/THWN wire in the conduit, not the UF cable. I'm not positive you can run UF along the outside of the house (I assume this depends on how you define "subject to physical damage"), but my preference is to run conduit. The only allowed way to run exposed cables on the side of a house is inside conduit. UF does stand for Underground Feeder after all. It's meant to be run underground, with conduit and fittings protecting it where it is exposed. A typical installation for UF is to have it inside a right angle where it exits a house, with a straight pipe down to the depth it's no longer required to be protected at. Also, running any bundled cables in conduit is a major pain in the butt if you have any curves. And if you really want to split hairs, the codebook specifies THWN cable outdoors, but nearly 100% of THHN is also certified THWN.
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May 3, 2016 17:05
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And now for something different. Need to fish wires? Use a ferret! http://qi.com/infocloud/ferrets
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May 3, 2016 20:17
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Special A posted:You can run 20 amps worth of stuff. Unless AL has changed the code requirements, all general use outlets are part of the general load calculation for your house, so you can have an unlimited amount of them on the circuit. That being said, if you know what you plan on using the outlets for, and you know how many lights are on the circuit, you can get an idea of how much current the circuit would be using: zharmad posted:The box requirement is calculated against the size of conduit. Assuming larger than he needs for the 7 #12 wires above, on a T, you take the largest conduit size for the angle (let's go with 3/4) times 8 plus the size of remaining conduit connections (1.5 for a T) would be 7.5 cubic inches required size to do the junction. That's pretty tight to work in so getting a standard 18 cu. Inch box would leave plenty of room. kid sinister posted:The only allowed way to run exposed cables on the side of a house is inside conduit. UF does stand for Underground Feeder after all. It's meant to be run underground, with conduit and fittings protecting it where it is exposed. A typical installation for UF is to have it inside a right angle where it exits a house, with a straight pipe down to the depth it's no longer required to be protected at. Thanks all. I went with the tri-roll of 250ft THHN (the jacket says THHN THWN like you said it almost certainly would). I also went with the weatherproof boxes, with the parts not being used for conduit sealed with silicone. They are I think a bit over 18c", but it was a pain finding some that had the outlets on the side instead of just top, bottom, back.
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May 4, 2016 03:54
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Quick and easy: I have an apartment balcony with two 2-pin fluorescent bulbs but no outlet. Is there an adapter to get me from 2-pin to an outlet, or do I have to go 2-pin -> socket -> outlet? The latter sounds and would look skeevy.
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May 4, 2016 17:47
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Aliquid posted:Quick and easy: I have an apartment balcony with two 2-pin fluorescent bulbs but no outlet. Is there an adapter to get me from 2-pin to an outlet, or do I have to go 2-pin -> socket -> outlet? The latter sounds and would look skeevy. The 2-Pin connector is potentially not 120V AC power, but the output of a ballast to drive a fluorescent tube. What bulbs go in it? Can you read the sticker for input/output power?
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May 4, 2016 18:09
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H110Hawk posted:The 2-Pin connector is potentially not 120V AC power, but the output of a ballast to drive a fluorescent tube. What bulbs go in it? Can you read the sticker for input/output power? Ergh, it says "Use only compact fluorescent" on it, but then lists 120V 60HZ, .17 amps.
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May 4, 2016 18:15
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Aliquid posted:Ergh, it says "Use only compact fluorescent" on it, but then lists 120V 60HZ, .17 amps. So you have 20 watts of 120V power available to you. Unless you're hoping to charge a cell phone your plan isn't going to work unfortunately. You can probably use a LED bulb in there too if you're feeling rebellious.
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May 4, 2016 18:21
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Aliquid posted:Ergh, it says "Use only compact fluorescent" on it, but then lists 120V 60HZ, .17 amps. Well, there is a pair of adapters I can't think of that would get you a 2 prong outlet there. The problem is that .17 amps is WAY too low to power anything meaningful.
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May 4, 2016 18:28
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Crap. It was to flood the balcony with red chili-pepper lights. Thanks  edit it's a string of 35 lights rated at .12 amps. I have four sets, maybe I could get away with one?
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May 4, 2016 18:31
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I've got a GFCI outlet in my garage that's the GFCI root of the same circuit as all the outdoor outlets: It's also the closest outlet to the network drop outside, so that's where the carrier-provided power supply for that lives. Is replacing that single GFCI outlet with two separate GFCI outlets, one for the power supply, and one for the outdoor outlets acceptable?
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May 4, 2016 22:31
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Aliquid posted:Crap. It was to flood the balcony with red chili-pepper lights. Thanks One and only one, probably. Cocoa Crispies posted:I've got a GFCI outlet in my garage that's the GFCI root of the same circuit as all the outdoor outlets: Is that all there is? Those 2 outlets on that branch? Then yeah, that should be OK. What does the covers for the outdoor covers look like? Are they in use covers?
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May 4, 2016 22:58
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kid sinister posted:Is that all there is? Those 2 outlets on that branch? Then yeah, that should be OK. 
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May 4, 2016 23:25
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Trigger warning: South Florida construction boom shoddy quality. I should put a fake rock over this one. It's never been used.  This one's in the non-screened porch.  Another one up front:  The side yard: 
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May 4, 2016 23:33
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Other than the first one not being well protected (physically) I'm not seeing a problem. The outdoor ones are even in properly covered boxes for their locations as you describe them.
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May 5, 2016 14:24
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Motronic posted:Other than the first one not being well protected (physically) I'm not seeing a problem. The outdoor ones are even in properly covered boxes for their locations as you describe them. My problem is the internet goes out in the rain, and it's the rainy season here. Separating the garage outlet and outdoor outlets into separate GFCI branches seems like that'd fix it without having to troubleshoot outdoor outlet, wiring, and cover issues.
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May 5, 2016 14:41
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If you can put in a double gang box there's no reason you can't pigtail what is going to the "line" terminal on the current GFCI and hook it up to both (also pigtail the neutral and ground to both GFCIs). The new GFCI will have nothing connected to it's "load" terminals and will be completely stand-alone. And sorry, I lost the context of the pics there.....I thought it was a Crappy Construction post that wasn't really all that crappy. Didn't realize it was related to the post before at first.
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May 5, 2016 14:51
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Motronic posted:If you can put in a double gang box there's no reason you can't pigtail what is going to the "line" terminal on the current GFCI and hook it up to both (also pigtail the neutral and ground to both GFCIs). The new GFCI will have nothing connected to it's "load" terminals and will be completely stand-alone. A little curious why he's getting a GFI fault when it rains, tho. I guess it could be that unprotected box out in the open? I was thinking the second GFI in the Xbox itself would trip, but I guess not if water gets into the box... What I want to know is what that other conduit leads to!
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May 5, 2016 17:07
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Motronic posted:If you can put in a double gang box there's no reason you can't pigtail what is going to the "line" terminal on the current GFCI and hook it up to both (also pigtail the neutral and ground to both GFCIs). The new GFCI will have nothing connected to it's "load" terminals and will be completely stand-alone. No worries! I'm glad to know it's safe to have two GFCI branches on a single breaker. Hubis posted:What I want to know is what that other conduit leads to! The one in the middle of the front yard? I suspect it's just a bad mechanical support. I've been too scared to ever reset or use that outlet.
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May 5, 2016 17:31
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Cocoa Crispies posted:Multiple outdoor outlets on the same GFCI branch. Cover pics forthcoming. You don't need put in a 2 gang box for 2 GFCIs. You should only need to take that garage GFCI out of its box, separate move the wires on its load terminals to wires on its line terminals, then put a GFCI in the next box down the branch. Speaking of next boxes: Cocoa Crispies posted:Trigger warning: South Florida construction boom shoddy quality. GFCIs gain no protection benefit from being daisy chained. Are you sure that the yard box is on the same circuit? Reset that outlet, then check if it has power. Next, press the test button on the garage GFCI and see if that yard box still has power. The first thing I would recommend is to replace the missing in use cover on the yard box, and to use weather resistant outlets everywhere outside. If the cover keeps getting knocked off, maybe get a flat style in use cover, with the pop out accordion section. By the way, what's under the covers of the other boxes?
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May 5, 2016 17:44
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kid sinister posted:You don't need put in a 2 gang box for 2 GFCIs. You should only need to take that garage GFCI out of its box, separate move the wires on its load terminals to wires on its line terminals, then put a GFCI in the next box down the branch. That's a much better solution if he can determine what the next box actually is.
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May 5, 2016 18:53
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Motronic posted:That's a much better solution if he can determine what the next box actually is. Cocoa, that's doable, but it involves running back to that garage GFCI each time to use its test and reset buttons. Push that GFCI's test button, then go to the next closest outlet that you suspect is on that branch. Test that outlet to make sure it is off, then pull it out of the box and separate all the black wires from the outlet and each other. Make sure they aren't touching any metal (and no kids are around), then go back to the garage GFCI and reset it. Now go to all the other outdoor outlets and see if they are not powered. If all of them aren't powered, then you just found the next box down branch. Oh, you'll also need to figure out if that yard GFCI is on the same circuit as the garage. Check your panel for any oddball outdoor-related labels like "garden" or "fountain" or "lamp post".
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May 5, 2016 22:44
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Can conduit act as ground? I have a metal box on the wall with an outlet which is grounded to the box and to the ground wire. There is a flex conduit going from that box to another box with no ground wire. Is this okay?
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May 6, 2016 22:29
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FogHelmut posted:Can conduit act as ground? I have a metal box on the wall with an outlet which is grounded to the box and to the ground wire. There is a flex conduit going from that box to another box with no ground wire. Is this okay? Sure it can. And it was even to code at some point. If I recall, some types of "flex conduit" (FMC) can be used as a ground for runs of up to 6 feet if under 20 amps. Well.....back when I was still a code monkey. That too may have changed.
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May 6, 2016 22:41
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Motronic posted:Sure it can. And it was even to code at some point. This is about 12 feet. It's in my garage. As long as it doesn't blow up any of my power tools, I'm okay with that.
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May 6, 2016 22:47
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FogHelmut posted:This is about 12 feet. It's in my garage. As long as it doesn't blow up any of my power tools, I'm okay with that. Motronic is right, FMC's legal grounding length is limited to 6 feet. The good news is that you have conduit. Pull a green or bare ground wire down it as big as the others, wire it up and you're done. If you got a lot of bends that flex, use a stranded green wire. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 01:12 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 01:08
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kid sinister posted:Motronic is right, FMC's legal grounding length is limited to 6 feet. The good news is that you have conduit. Pull a green or bare ground wire down it as big as the others, wire it up and you're done. If you got a lot of bends that flex, use a stranded green wire. Easy enough, I'll get that done, thanks all.
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May 7, 2016 05:15
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