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Where can people get Mage 2nd Ed? It's supposed to be realised, and yet I can't find a place to buy it.
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May 4, 2016 19:09
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Arashiofordo3 posted:Where can people get Mage 2nd Ed? It's supposed to be realised, and yet I can't find a place to buy it. It's not on drivethru rpg? I'm saving for vacation at the end of the month, so I haven't checked yet.
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May 4, 2016 19:11
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Arashiofordo3 posted:Where can people get Mage 2nd Ed? It's supposed to be realised, and yet I can't find a place to buy it. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/181754/Mage-the-Awakening-2nd-Edition?manufacturers_id=4261
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May 4, 2016 19:15
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I'm having a hard time getting a good read on the Seers of the Throne here. They're willing servants of the Exarchs, and seek to keep humanity from Awakening, but what do they actually do? There's a picture of a bunch of presumably Seers at a party with a crucified man being tortured, so do they actually torture people? Where do they get them, do they just abduct people off the street to kill and torture them? Or are they more about the grinding oppression, making sure people remain poor and frustrated and ignorant? Or is it really just about keeping them away from magic, so you could have a tech entrepreneur Seer who advanced mundane technology by leaps and bounds but in doing so keeps people from realizing that the physical world doesn't have all the answers? Also, side note but why are Liches bad guys? I mean sure, the Tremere and other soul/body snatchers, but there's a big chunk in there about people who just extend their life with Life magic, and how other mages will dispel that poo poo to make you die. That just makes the other mages seem like murderous petty assholes, rather than painting Liches as villains who need to be opposed. Kaza42 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on May 4, 2016 |
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May 4, 2016 19:19
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Kaza42 posted:I'm having a hard time getting a good read on the Seers of the Throne here. They're willing servants of the Exarchs, and seek to keep humanity from Awakening, but what do they actually do? There's a picture of a bunch of presumably Seers at a party with a crucified man being tortured, so do they actually torture people? Where do they get them, do they just abduct people off the street to kill and torture them? Or are they more about the grinding oppression, making sure people remain poor and frustrated and ignorant? Or is it really just about keeping them away from magic, so you could have a tech entrepreneur Seer who advanced mundane technology by leaps and bounds but in doing so keeps people from realizing that the physical world doesn't have all the answers? The Seers keep people distracted. They make sure the world is a lovely place, where people are too busy thinking about getting by, but not desperate enough to Awaken just out of sheer, terrified need. They are grinding oppressors. The Praetorian Ministry keeps the world in a constant state of meaningless war. The Panopticon ensures everyone is paranoid, that everything is catalogued and watched. The Paternoster ensures that people follow the motions of religion but lack the ecstatic joy of faith. Awakening requires desperation or inspiration, some internal or external trigger that leads you to seeing past the Lie. Seers make sure that never happens, if they can. E: Also, Liches aren't inherently bad, really. They're fearful, inhuman, but a Morphean is not necessarily evil. Nor someone that extends their life via magic. The trick is, how much do you think you'd like some random guy from the 1800s? Now what if he had Life 5?
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May 4, 2016 19:22
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Kaza42 posted:I'm having a hard time getting a good read on the Seers of the Throne here. They're willing servants of the Exarchs, and seek to keep humanity from Awakening, but what do they actually do? There's a picture of a bunch of presumably Seers at a party with a crucified man being tortured, so do they actually torture people? Where do they get them, do they just abduct people off the street to kill and torture them? Or are they more about the grinding oppression, making sure people remain poor and frustrated and ignorant? Or is it really just about keeping them away from magic, so you could have a tech entrepreneur Seer who advanced mundane technology by leaps and bounds but in doing so keeps people from realizing that the physical world doesn't have all the answers? Seers attempt to influence people away from Awakening and the Supernal. What exactly they do will vary by Ministry. The Ministry of Hegemony pushes for nation-states, hierarchical power structures generally, and belief in superiors and inferiors. The Praetorian Ministry pushes for militarism and the normalization of violence. The Ministry of Panopticon pushes for surveillance. The Ministry of Mammon pushes for greed. Seers believe themselves to be following the Exarch's will, and supposedly the heads of the four most powerful Ministries are merged partially with their representative Exarchs. That being said, the Seers generally are against anything which improves conditions for people generally because they conclude that the general misery of the world is the will of the Exarchs and, say, improving Fallen technology is thus a contradiction of the Exarch's will. IDK. In 1e extending your life with Life magic didn't make you a Liche/Reaper AFAIK.
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May 4, 2016 19:25
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Mors Rattus posted:The Seers keep people distracted. They make sure the world is a lovely place, where people are too busy thinking about getting by, but not desperate enough to Awaken just out of sheer, terrified need. They are grinding oppressors. The Praetorian Ministry keeps the world in a constant state of meaningless war. The Panopticon ensures everyone is paranoid, that everything is catalogued and watched. The Paternoster ensures that people follow the motions of religion but lack the ecstatic joy of faith. Awakening requires desperation or inspiration, some internal or external trigger that leads you to seeing past the Lie. Seems like they'd put a lot more people into desperation than they intend. I can see that working in the first world (We're miserable but have too much to lose to revolt), but not so much in places where there's no guarantee you're going to see tomorrow even if you don't do anything but your daily routine. It seems like the opposite approach would work just as well- make the Lie as comfortable as possible so people have no need to reach for the Supernal.
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May 4, 2016 19:34
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Kavak posted:Seems like they'd put a lot more people into desperation than they intend. I can see that working in the first world (We're miserable but have too much to lose to revolt), but not so much in places where there's no guarantee you're going to see tomorrow even if you don't do anything but your daily routine. It seems like the opposite approach would work just as well- make the Lie as comfortable as possible so people have no need to reach for the Supernal. I'm pretty sure that's the job of one of the Ministries. Keep in mind that the Ministries operate at cross purposes fairly often because the Exarchs don't actually agree. The General prefers normalized violence where the Father prefers paternalistic and faithless religion where the Prophet likes to encourage fatalism where the Raptor prefers making people just ignore rational thought in favor of pointless instinct.
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May 4, 2016 19:43
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Mors Rattus posted:I'm pretty sure that's the job of one of the Ministries. Keep in mind that the Ministries operate at cross purposes fairly often because the Exarchs don't actually agree. The General prefers normalized violence where the Father prefers paternalistic and faithless religion where the Prophet likes to encourage fatalism where the Raptor prefers making people just ignore rational thought in favor of pointless instinct. Not to mention the Seers generally are power-mongers who will unhesitatingly backstab each other like a society of Revolver Ocelots even when the Exarchs do agree on particular issues. Give two Ministries diametrically opposed opinions on something, and you get something like the Ministry of Mammon slowly strangling the Hegemonic Ministry.
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May 4, 2016 19:51
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Isn't the Exarchs communication with the Seers and their very existence also in question?
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May 4, 2016 19:52
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Let's not even get started on the Gate. Also, no. Exarchs definitely exist. They definitely communicate with the Seers. Prelacies come from them, they very rarely send ochemata out to do things directly. The meaning of those communications is in question.
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May 4, 2016 19:53
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Kavak posted:Isn't the Exarchs communication with the Seers and their very existence also in question? Yep, at least from the ground view. Some Seers, usually high-ranking ones, get visions and commands from something that seems very much like the Exarchs, but just as many Seers claim to have gotten them to justify whatever they wanted to do, so even genuine visions are viewed with intense skepticism - especially if they say something like "Go stab the head of the local Pylon, he's doing it wrong." Basically the only solid evidence for the existence of Exarchs that can't be totally dismissed as a lie or a mistake are the ochemata, and they're both incredibly rare and could still easily be a bunch of lying...whatever they ares, if they aren't pieces of the Exarchs thrown onto Earth. (But the opinion of the line is that the Exarchs exist, it's just that whatever the gently caress they are is much more an unknown.)
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May 4, 2016 19:56
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I'd say Prelacies are strong evidence that the Seers are tapping into something with solid mojo. They're like Legacies except you get them just for being a good Seer!
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May 4, 2016 19:57
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Being unaging doesn't make you inherently evil or anything but because it goes against the spiritual beliefs of most mages and the more common ways of achieving it are really nasty business, they don't like taking chances. Also because centuries-old mages who haven't achieved archmastery are probably horrendous acts of hubris waiting to happen, which is a rare moment of self-awareness for the Pentacle.
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May 4, 2016 20:03
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So there's something up there, but whether it approves, disapproves, or even cares about their actions is up in the air. Are any Seers actually in it "for the cause" of the Exarchs or is it all "gently caress you, got my magic"?
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May 4, 2016 20:04
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Kavak posted:So there's something up there, but whether it approves, disapproves, or even cares about their actions is up in the air. This supposes that there's a difference.
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May 4, 2016 20:06
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Mage 2e makes it clear that there are no idealists in the Seers after the first, like, three months. It doesn't work. Idealists don't last. Now, they may fundamentally believe that it's better to be a quisling than a rebel, but they aren't about to take a bullet for the cause if they can at all avoid doing so. There's a reason they have so many different ways to make cannon fodder.
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May 4, 2016 20:11
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The most attractive and idealistic way to sell the Seer philosophy is something like "if everyone could do magic they'd probably destroy the world so this is honestly the best that can be done".
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May 4, 2016 20:14
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Ferrinus posted:The most attractive and idealistic way to sell the Seer philosophy is something like "if everyone could do magic they'd probably destroy the world so this is honestly the best that can be done". That was kind of the unspoken problem of oMage, that ascending everyone would probably result in a whole lot less people alive as people just generally have problems dealing with their magic, and murderers suddenly having a much more efficient method of murder.
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May 4, 2016 20:24
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The problem doesn't really apply to nMage because if we all Ascended and entered the Realms Supernal, death would no longer be a thing to be feared, but a simple transition between states of magic - moving from Life to Death. And probably back again because we would exist as symbols and pure magic rather than flesh and blood. This world is of course impossible for humans to conceptualize in any way that is even slightly relatable but that's kind of the point, isn't it?
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May 4, 2016 20:27
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This basically just makes me want to run The Seers of the Throne as Wolfram and Hart. Which isn't a bad thing, every splatline needs a Wolfram and Hart style antagonist (or protagonist, in the case of the Cheiron Group)
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May 4, 2016 20:28
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Kaza42 posted:This basically just makes me want to run The Seers of the Throne as Wolfram and Hart. Which isn't a bad thing, every splatline needs a Wolfram and Hart style antagonist (or protagonist, in the case of the Cheiron Group) The Ministry of Mammon is basically a near-perfect way to do Wolfram and Hart, so.
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May 4, 2016 20:33
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Kaza42 posted:
My reading of that was definitely of liches being the least worst of the bunch. Sort of a "I'm not saying becoming a lich makes you a problem, I'm saying every lich I've met was a problem" sort of thing. Being a lich isn't bad, but the thought process that leads you to it is often an issue.
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May 4, 2016 22:05
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May 4, 2016 22:51
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May 4, 2016 23:18
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More Mage 2e errors: the sheet at the end of the book is still using the 1e cheat sheet stuff at the bottom.
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May 4, 2016 23:19
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hosed up that the Moros signature guy is the spitting image of the kindly old necromancer in my game.
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May 4, 2016 23:20
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Seer from the Ministry of Mammon coverts an initiate of Hegemon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkRDMil0bw bewilderment fucked around with this message at 23:47 on May 4, 2016 |
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May 4, 2016 23:42
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sorry if this is a hard question to answer but can anyone who's checked out mage 2e talk about how easy the book is to understand from a new person's point of view? of all the nwod corebooks i've read/skimmed through 1e mage was always the one that i seemed to 'get' the least, maybe just from being the most high-concept and seeming like its off in its own world way more than other splats. i never got much of an idea of what the average 'let's sit down and play some mage' session looks like
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May 5, 2016 00:09
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Brother Entropy posted:sorry if this is a hard question to answer but can anyone who's checked out mage 2e talk about how easy the book is to understand from a new person's point of view? of all the nwod corebooks i've read/skimmed through 1e mage was always the one that i seemed to 'get' the least, maybe just from being the most high-concept and seeming like its off in its own world way more than other splats. i never got much of an idea of what the average 'let's sit down and play some mage' session looks like Like a lot of the 2e core books the jargon is fast and furious, and assumes you're already somewhat familiar with the line. However, in terms of getting across what you do with the game, it's infinitely better.
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May 5, 2016 00:15
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I'm doing a review of it in the F&F thread that may help you out.
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May 5, 2016 00:22
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Daeren posted:Like a lot of the 2e core books the jargon is fast and furious, and assumes you're already somewhat familiar with the line. However, in terms of getting across what you do with the game, it's infinitely better. That's a problem with the 20th anniversary editions too. They assume a base level of setting knowledge that they're usually not very good at getting across since that pagespace needs to be devoted to every power and merit and subsplat and... Though the supplementary 20th anniversary books are usually very good. Changing Breeds 20 is basically Players Guide to the Changing Breeds but better in every conceivable way.
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May 5, 2016 00:36
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Daeren posted:Like a lot of the 2e core books the jargon is fast and furious I'm currently catching up on 2e stuff. Most of the changes seem good to me, but I am trying very hard to figure why anyone would think it was a good idea to replace sensible, straightforward chapter titles like "The World of the Forsaken" and "Special Rules and Systems" with cryptic nonsense like "Howls in the Night" and "Rules of the Hunt." Vampire has chapters called "Laws of the Dead" and "Rules of the Night". It seems a little cheeky to assume a player trying to look something up will intuitively understand that the former concerns character creation and the latter system rules. Hell, those titles are both so non-specific that either chapter could easily be about the Traditions or some other bit of fluff. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but it feels like pretty poor design to make a rulebook that will frequently be used as reference to look up this or that and give the chapters names that force readers to figure out what each one is about.
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May 5, 2016 00:42
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Speaking again to people extending their life with magic: It's not evil, but it smacks of hubris; you're making a statement about the value of your life and why it's so important that you get to avoid dying. It also makes you dependent on magic, which is going to make you a bad magical citizen even at the best of times. I don't think it's fair to say that all unnaturally old mages are bad, but they are certainly much more likely to become bad. That kind of thing has the tendency to make the whole magical community look at you with a careful side-eye. Except maybe the Free Council.
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May 5, 2016 00:44
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Speaking again to people extending their life with antibiotics: It's not evil, but it smacks of hubris;
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May 5, 2016 00:50
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I don't think it's semantically possible to be guilty of hubris in the classical sense if you've decided that the gods are your enemies. Mage uses 'hubris' where it means 'callousness' or 'recklessness' or 'detachment'.
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May 5, 2016 00:51
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Ferrinus posted:Speaking again to people extending their life with antibiotics: I mean, MRSA would be a pretty good analogue to Paradox in your analogy.
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May 5, 2016 00:57
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Ferrinus posted:Speaking again to people extending their life with antibiotics: Vaccines cause paradox.
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May 5, 2016 00:57
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So, someone wanted to know if there were idealist Seers.Sample character concept posted:Architect: The city stretches before me. Others of my Path would deem her a concrete jungle, but I see her as a living companion, as lonely as I am. Her lungs billow black smoke into the air, while her guts teem with thousands of residents. I raise my hands, and a dozen architects at three different firms unknowingly coordinate their efforts. The Exarchs bring order to this world, just as I bring order to this city. A skyscraper here, highway ramp there — enough to alter weather patterns, bringing storms to my lover’s belly. Drop by drop, the poorest within her will wash away, their foundations crumbled and possessions destroyed. In five years, property values will be low enough for gentrification to take hold, and my true work will begin. Good work, writers, I felt instinctive revulsion just reading it.
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May 5, 2016 01:06
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Bug report #3: Conditional duration only has rules for making a condition that ends a spell, but the Fate text implies it should also be able to have a condition that puts the spell in abeyance until a condition is met. Were I to have to hack something up, I'd suggest reversing the order in which the condition adds levels of Duration, since the condition now becomes not what turns the spell off, but what turns it on.
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May 5, 2016 01:36
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