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dogsicle posted:i think there's also a bit of Char being lovely involved too. they made it seem like there was something between the two of them It made a tiny amount of sense, and underneath all the "woman this woman that" crap that was spouted, at the end of it all Reccoa didn't feel appreciated in AEUG. Most of that, from what I gather, came after Quattro rejected her advances. Scirocco was a guy who would also send her off on dangerous missions like AEUG, but would appreciate her more? guess she felt the cause left her behind at some point? Now, the question becomes: where did she feel this abandonment occurred, and was it really just about Quattro? 
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May 7, 2016 01:43
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I think, from an in-universe perspective, there was a lot going on with Reccoa. There is the aforementioned potential Newtype mind control from Scirocco, Char being unable to return or understand her feelings, and then there was also Reccoa being a fairly unstable person to begin with. She purposefully took missions with low odds of survival, after all. Anime love characters searching for some ultimate purpose in their life and I think Reccoa, being a woman in Tomino Gundam was looking for love. Romantic love, specifically. That would justify her existence and give her life meaning. I think this is what Fa and Emma say if not in so many words once Reccoa turns traitor. Fa basically says she can understand why Reccoa did it from a feminine perspective. Men are barbaric, bloodthirsty louts and women are pure and delicate flowers who get sucked into men's wars. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it. Although I recall "men love war" being mentioned fairly often in Zeta.
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May 7, 2016 01:44
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Srice posted:And that time she fakes having a fever to avoid being seen by people who would recognize her. Yeah, you can tell by looking when it happens it isn't "ME SIMPLE GIRL FEEL ILL", she takes one clear look at them and goes "oh gently caress, I am outta here before this goes sideways!"
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May 7, 2016 01:46
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I know it's kind of a side note at this point, but on the whole Tomino/not Tomino thing, I feel like it's at least worth giving a mention to the first non-Tomino Gundam anime. Good old War in the Pocket. Finally got around to seeing it, and everyone is right. It is, in fact, great. Something that kind of stands out, though, is how it feels anti-war working from basically the opposite positions as compared to Thunderbolt. (The OVAs, at least. I haven't read the manga, so some points may be different there) Thunderbolt doesn't have a single character outside the military in the present day. Everyone's trying to kill the hell out of either the Zekes or the Feddies, day in day out. The pirate radio station is an exception in the early part of the manga, but the anime cuts it. There's no-one outside of the war. 080 has a heavy focus on civilians. Sure, there's Chris on one side and Cyclops Team on the other, but mostly it's about how the war comes home for Al, a kid who doesn't know poo poo about real combat. This isn't payback for some past damage. This is innocent people caught between forces they had no way of stopping. Thunderbolt's Gundam pilot is a combat addict. He's brash, he's kind of an rear end in a top hat, he gets his whole squad killed and walks it off. Io's not a guy you want to spend time around. Meanwhile, 080's got Chris, who's pretty much the first person the Feds would want on a recruiting poster. She's friendly, likable, and pretty. She's in the fight to keep her home and family safe, and she's good at her job, but mostly she thinks of it as a data entry position. She honestly believes she's doing the right thing, and is willing to put her life in more risk to avoid harm coming to innocent people, even against orders. (The argument with the detective is interesting in that context) Most of Thunderbolt's Zeon forces are fanatics in the end, willing to blow themselves up to kill a few more Feddies, even with the cavalry on the horizon. Over in the older OVA, while Zeon as a faction is portrayed in a negative light (Colonel Killing states he's acting on Gihren's orders, and he's king of the assholes), most of the Zeon characters are decent, regular guys. Captain Hardy puts his life on the line to save an innocent colony, even though he could just duck out until the war ends and make it out alive. He also repeatedly takes measures to minimize violence against civilians in completing his objectives. Several other Zeon officers are shocked and appalled by Killing's whole nuclear mass murder plan, and Bernie Wiseman's... Bernie Wiseman. If he's not the hero of the piece, he's the emergency backup. A regular guy in over his head, doing his best, even when he knows he's screwed. Summed up, it felt like Thunderbolt, to the extent it was anti-war, basically centered around the idea that war makes people monsters. War is the place you find Bad People. 080 was about how war was where good people had lovely, lovely things happen to them. Interesting. (Especially with how, although the actions within War in the Pocket were largely futile, it didn't portray war-in-general as a pointless thing. Mobile suits were described as a necessary evil. Cyclops team fought with millions of lives on the line, even if it turned out the line was somewhere else. Bernie talked about how Al shouldn't hate the Gundam pilot for doing a job, even though he thought that it was just some random schmuck instead of the woman he had a crush on. War in the Pocket seemed to treat war as something to be avoided if at all possible, while acknowledging that sometimes it's impossible. Which, of course, just makes things a little bit more tragic.)
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May 7, 2016 02:29
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Yeah, Reccoa clearly had a lot of issues and the show actually took time to show moments where she was feeling clearly underappreciated, and it's easy to tell that Sirocco was mind-creeping on her, but when she actually vocalizes her feelings about her situation and why she made the decisions she did it's difficult not to go "wow what."
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May 7, 2016 02:29
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Srice posted:There's a lot of anime, without any of those elements. Yeah, I know, I know, medium, not genre, I've heard it before. There are enough similar elements across shows (that I have watched, not every one of the hundreds of series) that I notice and get annoyed by. I'm just saying that I don't compare against Tomino, because they're trying to do something different.
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May 7, 2016 03:43
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I guess I'm something of an odd duck in that I would consider myself a Tomino fan but I find most of his post-depression works to be less compelling than the rest. For good or bad, he does things other directors wouldn't try and gives his shows a very unique visual style. But, to me, he's at best when his pathos is firmly set in tragedy, because I don't find his comedy scenes funny, nor do I think he's good at romance. His action scenes are always very well done, but he's been doing sudden powerups every couple fights for a while and that's just not an interesting way to resolve them. I think his leads got a lot worse with time, kids like Kappei and Kamille start as awful little shits who notably grow with their experiences into better people from all the horrible things that happen to them. His new shows push leads into less interesting directions. Loran barely does any character growth after outing himself as moonrace early in the show and the worst thing that happens to Bellri is that the girl he has a crush on turns out to be his sister. His secondary casts are still solid though, for every Char and Haman you have a Klim Nick and Dianna Soreil, no complaints there. It adds up to me not really caring about most of what happens, even though I usually want to. 
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May 7, 2016 05:24
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Counterpoint: Judau is the king of the universe.
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May 7, 2016 08:23
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Shinjobi posted:Counterpoint: Judau is the king of the universe. ZZ was hardly post-depression. No idea where Brain Powerd fits in, though. He wrote it just before Turn A.
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May 7, 2016 08:41
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Yeah, I missed the post-depression bit. My bad.
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May 7, 2016 08:43
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brainwrinkle posted:Sure, one can infer that pretty easily in retrospect. But why isn't there a 30-second scene of the head Titans guys sitting down and stating that before they enter into negotiation with the Zeon remnants? Hell, you could characterize Sirocco more by having him gloat about how he will play everyone in his internal monologue in this theoretical scene. I feel like other directors make far more concessions like that to make sure the audience understands. Tomino just rolls with it and hopes you get the idea. It's also pretty clear in the show by the time Axis shows up that the Titans' stated goal(fighting Zeon remnants) is basically lip service to initially justify their existence and they're now in the business of holding onto and consolidating their regime by any means possible rather than actually caring about their original mission statement.
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May 7, 2016 11:35
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Kanos posted:It's also pretty clear in the show by the time Axis shows up that the Titans' stated goal(fighting Zeon remnants) is basically lip service to initially justify their existence and they're now in the business of holding onto and consolidating their regime by any means possible rather than actually caring about their original mission statement. It's actually revealed that the Titans' leadership are mostly sticking to their original brief, with Bask's gigantic veiny murderboner for spacenoids being the main distraction. The big problem is that that brief isn't what they sold to the Federation. Jamitov actually shares the ideals of the AEUG, but differs radically in how to apply them. He wants to use the Titans' aggression to discredit and bankrupt the Federation, freeing humanity to expand into space. Paptimus essentially borrowed the whole idea, with the added step of 'make myself a shadow-dictator through a woman of my choosing'.
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May 7, 2016 11:59
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Darth Walrus posted:It's actually revealed that the Titans' leadership are mostly sticking to their original brief, with Bask's gigantic veiny murderboner for spacenoids being the main distraction. The big problem is that that brief isn't what they sold to the Federation. Jamitov actually shares the ideals of the AEUG, but differs radically in how to apply them. He wants to use the Titans' aggression to discredit and bankrupt the Federation, freeing humanity to expand into space. Paptimus essentially borrowed the whole idea, with the added step of 'make myself a shadow-dictator through a woman of my choosing'. Hey, you'd want to murder spacenoids if they hosed up your face to the point where you had to wear tanning booth sunglasses 100% of the time.
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May 7, 2016 14:09
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He also got real sick of people asking "Hey where's Krang?"
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May 7, 2016 16:06
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Darth Walrus posted:It's actually revealed that the Titans' leadership are mostly sticking to their original brief, with Bask's gigantic veiny murderboner for spacenoids being the main distraction. The big problem is that that brief isn't what they sold to the Federation. Jamitov actually shares the ideals of the AEUG, but differs radically in how to apply them. He wants to use the Titans' aggression to discredit and bankrupt the Federation, freeing humanity to expand into space. Paptimus essentially borrowed the whole idea, with the added step of 'make myself a shadow-dictator through a woman of my choosing'. This i an interpretation of the Titans I've never heard before or saw hinted at in the anime.
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May 7, 2016 16:26
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I remember Jamitov saying that he wanted to rule everyone by using up the resources of Earth, forcing everyone into space where he was the dictator. In standard Tomino form it's one scene somewhere in the middle of the show and never brought up again.
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May 7, 2016 16:47
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brainwrinkle posted:I remember Jamitov saying that he wanted to rule everyone by using up the resources of Earth, forcing everyone into space where he was the dictator. Yeah, he mentions it in passing a couple of times in the final third of the show. I think Jerid eventually gets the real story, too.
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May 7, 2016 17:13
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Gundam Breaker 3 is out in English if you import by the way. It's pretty great.
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May 9, 2016 00:04
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Yeah, sounds fun. I just buy the disk and put it in my PS4 right, no shenanigans? I don't think I've imported for a home console since the Naruto Gamecube fighters. Any recommendations to ship to the UK? Do parts scale to fit together, or can you do like an F91 with Sazabi gorilla arms or something?
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May 9, 2016 00:46
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BizarroAzrael posted:Yeah, sounds fun. I just buy the disk and put it in my PS4 right, no shenanigans? I don't think I've imported for a home console since the Naruto Gamecube fighters. Any recommendations to ship to the UK? You may want to make a PSN account for the region you buy from if you want DLC but yeah, you can just insert and play. Parts don't scale so you can get some weird looking robots, also you have both 1/144 and 1/100 parts that can coexist on the same model at different scales. Gb3 adds SD kits too.
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May 9, 2016 00:53
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I'm not a fan of grinding at all, but it looks like so much fun to build and customize. Is the battle system fun enough that I can overlook all the grinding?
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May 9, 2016 03:04
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The_Rob posted:I'm not a fan of grinding at all, but it looks like so much fun to build and customize. Is the battle system fun enough that I can overlook all the grinding? It's pretty fun but kind of fairly generic action combat system. Lots of weapon and attack customization options though. I wouldn't play it for the combat on its own but it has a sort of Dynasty Warriors 'beat up a lot of poo poo" level of fun to it.
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May 9, 2016 03:22
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Reccoa's character "development" is one of those awful Alien things Tomino does. She was an alright character until she literally disappears and is replaced by bizarreo Reccoa. The reasons for this is so vapid and so poorly thought out and executed he might have been thrown out the proverbial airlock today. There is a additional hint as to why Reccoa does what she does at the very end, but it's comes off more as a cover your rear end poorly thing than anything else. At the end when she is talking to Emma, Emma asked why she did what she did. She replies in the sub "She was humiliated", Emma goes OMG "humiliated!". What it really means is that some where, some time Reccoa was raped. Whether it was by Sirocco or some other past attacker is never known and it definitely wasn't Char since he couldn't give a drat. How this leads to war crimes is completely alien. The worse thing about her character is that there is no indication she has gone insane. You think when she shows up as a Titian she is doing some sort of spy game. She shows a small amount of hesitation when given the orders, but nope, performs the gassing and blames the AEUG for not stopping it when she was in the perfect position to stop it even though she is completely horrified by the gassings earlier in the show. Tomino's character development and characters has always been poor and gets poorer as time goes on. Look at CCA. Ignore the fact he just drops you right in the middle of the plot. Instead of focusing on Amuro and Char's final battle it wastes all that useful time on Quess and Hathaway. They serves no purpose other than to waste screen time. It doesn't help that the idealogical reasons behind the OYW never made sense so when Amuro and Char do talk it's a mess. Not spending more time with those two together in Zeta was a crime. While it is appropriate that they don't see eye to eye even at the end, the content of that discussion is rubbish for most part. Wasting potential and stumbling for whatever reason is endemic of Tomino.
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May 9, 2016 10:54
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You know I thought this thread was getting too peaceful and was wondering what was missing.
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May 9, 2016 11:13
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There are a number of hints in Zeta that Scirocco used Newtype brainwashing on Reccoa. There's that little flash of light when he touches her, and in the episode 'The Call of Darkness', she behaves like she's trying to fight a psychic compulsion - her hitting on Char becomes an attempt to get someone, anyone, to distract her from Scirocco taking over her mind. There's actually a nice little bit of tragic irony there, as the man she believes to be her only hope to escape a cold-hearted manipulator of women is someone who we already know is exactly that. Also, ooohboy, you always seem to come into conversations being super aggressive and confrontational. What's up with that? It's weird.
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May 9, 2016 11:38
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Is anyone watching the TV broadcast of Unicorn? Is it better edited or re-animated or anything to justify watching it over the original Unicorn eps?
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May 9, 2016 11:41
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Darth Walrus posted:There are a number of hints in Zeta that Scirocco used Newtype brainwashing on Reccoa. There's that little flash of light when he touches her, and in the episode 'The Call of Darkness', she behaves like she's trying to fight a psychic compulsion - her hitting on Char becomes an attempt to get someone, anyone, to distract her from Scirocco taking over her mind. There's actually a nice little bit of tragic irony there, as the man she believes to be her only hope to escape a cold-hearted manipulator of women is someone who we already know is exactly that. Not to mention even without newtype abilities, Reccoa was a person whose insecurity was zeroed in on by a person with an incredible amount of emotional and material power. Scirocco took his presence, his charisma, and his shows of power and took the Jaws of Life to her, opening her up emotionally to let him step right in. She didn't even have a chance.
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May 9, 2016 11:49
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I don't get the dropped into the middle of the plot complaint with CCA, it's hardly an unprecedented film technique and it doesn't take too long after that inital battle to piece things together
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May 9, 2016 11:57
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Sometimes it's hard to figure out what he's doing at first glance but I appreciate Tomino's attempts at storytelling without having every character expositioning every motivation they have.
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May 9, 2016 12:00
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Srice posted:I don't get the dropped into the middle of the plot complaint with CCA, it's hardly an unprecedented film technique and it doesn't take too long after that inital battle to piece things together It's more of a statement that he loves wasting time/potential intentionally or otherwise. He knew going in he will have X time available for his film. Instead discarding characters that have little to do with the main characters or plot he wastes time that should have been spent on the core characters to flesh it out or putting us closer to the beginning of the story. What should have been and epic fist fight and one one of the few times they are face to face, Quess happens. Chan could have also been discarded as she serves no purpose other than to die. Amuro doesn't know she died so he doesn't suffer anymore emotional trauma even though she is shown as a love interest. So much potential wasted. It's not the technique I am complaining about, but how he used it.
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May 9, 2016 12:24
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Quess and Hathaway are there to represent that Char and Amuro are falling into the pattern they've been trying to fight: Pulling the new generation into the hosed up fights the older ones can't let go. It develops the two's fight into more than just two dickheads slapping each other. It's now affecting the people around them, whenever they want it to or not. Chan is there because Amuro needs someone to tell him to calm down and think. Her death is because she got caught up too deep in Amuro's mess so when she tried to take it upon herself to fix the mess Amuro and Char haven't bothered cleaning and being responsible for, it's far too gone and takes her too. I definitely think Chan and the rest could be written better, but saying they needed to be cut is dumb as Hell. Cutting them would have gutted the story and the two dickhead's conflict, just having it be focused solely on those two would have left it all being just a slapfight with some slight emotional depth.
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May 9, 2016 12:44
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I like Quess a lot, her character embodies a lot of the interesting aspects of newtypes. While her arc feels a lil rushed I did find it tragic enough. She thinks she made some connection with Char but she's just another tool for him.
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May 9, 2016 13:06
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Yeah, a lot of people find Quess annoying and while they certainly could have been done better, Quess, Gyunei, Hathaway and Chan are all important enough to the story and showing the overall themes of Gundam that to say they should have been cut is crazy.
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May 9, 2016 14:06
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Darth Walrus posted:There's actually a nice little bit of tragic irony there, as the man she believes to be her only hope to escape a cold-hearted manipulator of women is someone who we already know is exactly that. See, I dunno if I agree with that. CCA Char might have been that way but I don't think he was ever like that before he completely lost it. His interactions with Reccoa really contrast with his interactions with Quess, for example. He knew how to push all Quess' buttons and pull all her strings but he never had a clue what he was doing with Reccoa. He didn't even seem to notice she needed help. And of course the only other woman Char had been with was Lalah who he obviously cared about.
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May 9, 2016 15:29
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Char isn't specifically a manipulator of women but he is a massive manipulator and has little problem with taking advantage of someone's feelings about him. Basically the only person he might not treat that way is Sayla and even that is debatable.
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May 9, 2016 15:34
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EthanSteele posted:Yeah, a lot of people find Quess annoying and while they certainly could have been done better, Quess, Gyunei, Hathaway and Chan are all important enough to the story and showing the overall themes of Gundam that to say they should have been cut is crazy. Yeah, they're the thematic core of the movie. I really feel for Hathaway, expecially with Hathaway's Flash afterwards.
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May 9, 2016 16:38
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NikkolasKing posted:See, I dunno if I agree with that. CCA Char might have been that way but I don't think he was ever like that before he completely lost it. His interactions with Reccoa really contrast with his interactions with Quess, for example. He knew how to push all Quess' buttons and pull all her strings but he never had a clue what he was doing with Reccoa. He didn't even seem to notice she needed help. One word - Haman. Reccoa was just her all over again. Char had a finite amount of care for the women in his life, and he used it all up on Lalah, and even that wasn't exactly an equal relationship free of exploitation.
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May 9, 2016 16:40
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Char even arguably didn't care so much for Lalah as a person as he did for what Lalah meant to him. It's an interesting element of their relationship. He wanted her to be a Mother to him and was deeply interested in her Newtype powers but there's not a lot of evidence he cared about her wants or desires. She certainly didn't connect with him on the same level she did Amuro.
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May 9, 2016 17:04
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Hey ImpAtom, how's the SEA localization of GB3 hold up? Just want to size it up in case it ends up not finding it's way west after all.
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May 9, 2016 18:58
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The GIG posted:Hey ImpAtom, how's the SEA localization of GB3 hold up? Just want to size it up in case it ends up not finding it's way west after all. It's perfectly acceptable. It's by no means great but it isn't Sword Arts Online-level gibberish either. The majority of the text is coherently translated. The dialogue in the cutscenes is a little stiff and awkward but not awfully so and most of the mechanical text is fine with some weird word choices here and there. I'd have no problem recommending it if it got a US release unchanged. It's even got localized names already. (i.e: Burning Finger instead of God Finger.)
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May 9, 2016 19:04
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