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So we are in the process of buying a townhouse and we just got the inspection done. The inspector generally said that the house is in pretty good condition, but he couldn't do a full inspection on the electrical panel because he couldn't get the casing off (not sure how hard he tried tbh) and the casing was not flush with the switches. Basically as it is right now there is space between the casing and the switches where bugs or water could get in (see pictures). The seller doesn't want to fix anything in the house because they think they have put too much money into the house as is. My question is, how big of a deal is this? I understand that in general you don't want to mess with electrical stuff in your house and the panel is probably the most important part, but is this an actual code violation or something that could probably be fixed in due course (I think the pegboard surrounding the electrical panel would just need to be removed and the casing put back to normal). Or, should I insist that it be fixed prior to closing? http://imgur.com/a/5iYj4
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May 8, 2016 00:44
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That is awful and needs to be repaired. It was obviously installed wrong/on top of a wall finish that wasn't there when the box was installed. How difficult it will be to fix depends on how much they hosed up when that was done. The fact that the inspector couldn't get it off is a red flag.
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May 8, 2016 02:20
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I've a 120V mig welder and while it works on 15A, 20A mode is recommended. I plan to string a connection for it. But 12/2 isn't a whole lot cheaper than 8/3 over the distance I'm planning to go. I'm inclined to install a 240V circuit and split phases at the destination. This should allow use of my contemporary welder while allowing future upgrades without needing to dig another trench. According to the extension cord that came with my generator (  ) this is possible. But I am not sure how it's done. Is there a guide I could consult for this?
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May 8, 2016 03:47
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Could be just the front piece was put on wrong, or it could be that the same idiot who did the front piece like that also contributed to the wiring behind it. You need to find out because the latter could be expensive to fix.
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May 8, 2016 03:58
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Thanks for the replies guys. Seller is being a pain in the rear end. They essentially want the house sold "as-is" but didn't put that in the initial listing or in the initial contract offer. Even if I have to pay for it I will insist that I want an electrician to inspect it before we proceed with purchase.
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May 8, 2016 04:26
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Homer J. Fong posted:Thanks for the replies guys. Seller is being a pain in the rear end. They essentially want the house sold "as-is" but didn't put that in the initial listing or in the initial contract offer. Even if I have to pay for it I will insist that I want an electrician to inspect it before we proceed with purchase. Selling as-is sounds like a great way to reduce the price of sale by more than the estimated repairs. If that was literally the only thing wrong with it and it doesn't otherwise seem like a groverhaus maybe it's a bargain. Otherwise don't become emotionally invested in a death trap. Did your inspector actually test all the outlets, does their TV have working cable, crawl around in the attic, etc? Electrical panels aren't supposed to have finger holes.
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May 8, 2016 04:35
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The rest of the house is pretty much fine. It needs some GFCI outlets in kitchen and bathroom, a single outlet had hot and neutral reversed, but other than that all electrical was fine. House was built in 1988 and is in same community I am currently renting in (pretty much same style of townhouse and layout in every house). So unless someone deliberately sabotaged it I think it should be fine, but that seems like a lot to gamble on. edit: Really it was pretty much the only thing wrong in the house. I would think that common sense would dictate that you are not supposed to put poo poo around the electrical box like that but who knows. slave to my cravings fucked around with this message at 05:07 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 04:40
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If it was built in 1988 and you know the layout well enough to be sure there were no significant home handyman modification/additions you just might be in a good spot. I'd still want to see inside of that panel, because that's where electrical sins are often hidden (you won't often find the others directly because they are boxes and open splices buried in the walls). And, FYI....only part of the issue with how that panel is covered is electrocution hazard safety. That enclosure is made to a standard that keeps a certain amount of sparking and fire inside of it should something go wrong. It also holds the breakers firmly on the bus bar so they don't get loose and start fires. It obviously can't do those jobs when the cover is installed incorrectly.
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May 8, 2016 16:33
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Thanks for the info, it's really helpful. The panel has probably been like that for at least 2-3 years, but maybe more, seller hasn't been the most forthcoming with information other than at some point when they bought the house in 2010 everything electrical "passed inspection." Complicating matters is that there is a tenant in the home currently (lease ends May 31) so every time we want to enter we must get permission. Honestly it should be an issue for the current tenant more than anything else right now. Aren't landlords required to keep that stuff in safe working condition? We are currently asking for a second inspection by a license electrician (at our expense) to investigate the panel. They can refuse but at that point we will probably back out (or at least threaten to). We also know that the seller was also worried about under appraisal since they probably made too many upgrades (kitchen, baths x 3, patio, and more) to the house in the five years that they owned it (townhouse is at high end of comparable townhouses in the area). If you guys are curious I'll let you know how it goes over the next couple of days.
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May 8, 2016 16:47
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I went to replace a double switch in my bathroom and I'm running into a strange issue. The top switch controls the fan and the bottom controls the light. I wired up the new switch exactly like the old one (see pics for the original switch/wiring) but now the bottom switch doesn't work. A voltage tester shows current flowing through both left screws to the top right; no go on the bottom right. I'm thinking it's because I broke off the fin of the new switch because there are four wires as the diagram on the new switch shows, but if that's the case, I'm wary of wiring this up with 4 wires and an intact fin when that's not a case captured by these instructions. If I were to put in a switch with a fin intact, will that solve my issue, or will I burn my house down?   
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May 8, 2016 19:11
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Is anything else in your house also suddenly not working?
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May 8, 2016 20:32
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Homer J. Fong posted:they probably made too many upgrades (kitchen, baths x 3, patio, and more) to the house in the five years that they owned it (townhouse is at high end of comparable townhouses in the area). If you guys are curious I'll let you know how it goes over the next couple of days.  These are huge red flags. If the quality of work on those upgrades is similar to what was done on the panel you could be in for big problems. Just remember that a totally halfassed bathroom (incorrect materials, improper waterproofing, etc) will often look fine for over 5 years before it starts turning into a moldy mess. You're going to want to know what contractor did those jobs and probably see the bid sheet/invoices. Since they will say "no" to that you count the upgrade as needing to be redone in your negotiations.
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May 8, 2016 21:55
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Motronic posted:
And pull all of the permits they didn't get from the city. I would seriously wonder what they're trying to hide by being hostile to you over material questions of workmanship.
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May 8, 2016 22:33
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And the fact that they're trying to sell it as an as-is house without listing it as such (and taking the corresponding list price hit) is weird. Personally, I'd suggest you walk and wait for them to re-list it at 25% less. Come to the house buying thread in the personal finance sub forum and we can convince you to do never buy.
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May 8, 2016 22:39
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Thanks for all the replies guys. It is giving me some seconds thoughts, but really other than the electric panel, the inspector said it was mostly good including the upgrades. But I guess it can be hard to tell just from a 2 hour inspection of the surface of a house. I'll try asking for the invoices and stuff from the upgrades but frankly I'm not optimistic.
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May 8, 2016 23:19
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Inspectors are extremely limited by liability from looking too deep into problems. House flippers are experts at covering dodgy workmanship with a layer of drywall and a coat of glossy paint, and inspectors can't write up what they can't see. Then you get inspectors like my friend had, ones that overlook a gas flex-line running through a rough hole in the air ducts  My point being that what you've told us about the house, its history, and the behavior of the sellers is enough for me to have run screaming from that purchase.
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May 9, 2016 00:26
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DarkHorse posted:
Don't buy this house
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May 9, 2016 01:47
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Shab posted:I went to replace a double switch in my bathroom and I'm running into a strange issue. The top switch controls the fan and the bottom controls the light. I wired up the new switch exactly like the old one (see pics for the original switch/wiring) but now the bottom switch doesn't work. A voltage tester shows current flowing through both left screws to the top right; no go on the bottom right. I'm thinking it's because I broke off the fin of the new switch because there are four wires as the diagram on the new switch shows, but if that's the case, I'm wary of wiring this up with 4 wires and an intact fin when that's not a case captured by these instructions. It would. All that little tab is for is to connect the bottom screw terminal to the top one and vice versa. If you disconnect the top hot terminal from the bottom terminal, then attaching power to one screw won't pass it to the other. Regarding double switches, one switch is on either screw, so if you break the tab off, attaching the hot wire to one screw won't pass that power to the other. So why even have 2 screws on the shared side of the double switch? To save on wire nuts. That second black wire must go somewhere else in the house and is supposed to be always powered. So either replace that switch with one that hasn't had the tab broken off yet, or get 2 black wire pigtails and a wire nut, twist them all together, then attach the 2 pigtails to the side of that double switch.
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May 9, 2016 03:36
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kid sinister posted:It would. All that little tab is for is to connect the bottom screw terminal to the top one and vice versa. If you disconnect the top hot terminal from the bottom terminal, then attaching power to one screw won't pass it to the other. Regarding double switches, one switch is on either screw, so if you break the tab off, attaching the hot wire to one screw won't pass that power to the other. So why even have 2 screws on the shared side of the double switch? To save on wire nuts. That second black wire must go somewhere else in the house and is supposed to be always powered. Thanks a lot, that makes a lot of sense.
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May 9, 2016 14:46
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Cross post from the OSHA thread
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May 12, 2016 15:01
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what exactly am I looking at besides what looks like some really high current cable that's not quite touching but I feel like there should be more there, like a more solid connection than just metal with circles cut in it. *looks at pic one more time* Oh no wait.. I see it now.. they are connecting through the circles to another wire because the ports are too small and they can't fit the wire+insulation in it.. 
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May 12, 2016 15:24
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tater_salad posted:Oh no wait.. I see it now.. they are connecting through the circles to another wire because the ports are too small and they can't fit the wire+insulation in it.. Uhhhh...no. The insulation doesn't go in there. It would defeat the purpose of making an electrical connection. What's happened here is that the lugs are too small for the wire gauge so someone has quite neatly removed the outer strands of the conductor and put only the inner strands in the lug. So the cable is effectively downrated and it's being attached to something that wasn't designed for the current capacity of the wire being used.
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May 12, 2016 16:00
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i didn't realize this was a terminal, I thoguth maybe they were just entering to go through and connect somewhere else.
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May 12, 2016 18:29
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I found an online guide to building a small electric fence against snails ( http://www.instructables.com/id/Installing-and-testing-an-electric-slug-fence-on-a/ ), and I'm basically finished except I still need to decide on the electricity part. Basically the guide says to hook it up to a 9v battery, but I'm curious would it be possible to use an old phone charger instead? I found one that outputs 5.0 V and 350 mA, that won't kill anyone, won't it? (disclaimer I know next to nothing about electricity)
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May 13, 2016 14:42
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mike12345 posted:I found an online guide to building a small electric fence against snails ( http://www.instructables.com/id/Installing-and-testing-an-electric-slug-fence-on-a/ ), and I'm basically finished except I still need to decide on the electricity part. No, it won't--- but based on my reading of that article, it may not do anything anti-slug either. 9V may be the "right" voltage for slug deterrent. Because the circuit isn't conducting unless a slug touches it, a battery should last for a long time in that scenario so rather than dealing with hard wiring it to a charger, I would just use the battery. You'll know it's time to replace it when you start seeing slugs.
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May 13, 2016 15:59
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mike12345 posted:I found an online guide to building a small electric fence against snails ( http://www.instructables.com/id/Installing-and-testing-an-electric-slug-fence-on-a/ ), and I'm basically finished except I still need to decide on the electricity part. A charger will work fine if that's what you've got. 5V isn't a whole lot, but slug slime is probably really conductive, and 350mA is a lot, even for something without a real heart or complicated nervous system. If that doesn't work, something outputting some other voltage can be had at a thrift store for a dollar or less. They've usually got a laundry basket of disused chargers. Look for 7-12V at 500mA or less. 12V@500mA is about where a human with a cut on their hand can start to feel pain.
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May 14, 2016 01:07
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Thanks a lot for the feedback guys, I'll probably go with the battery now. One more question about the charger: Would it cause a short circuit if it rains on the bare wire of the charger?
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May 14, 2016 08:12
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mike12345 posted:Thanks a lot for the feedback guys, I'll probably go with the battery now. One more question about the charger: Would it cause a short circuit if it rains on the bare wire of the charger? Probably, but that's how electric fences work: whatever touches it makes a short, either hot-to-ground, or positive-to-negative. Did you ever stick a 9V to your tongue? It's only enough amps to give a tickle, and amps is what melts wires and starts fires. As long as you space the wires out (that 3/4" sounds good) so that rain can't bridge the contacts, and also don't don't put the wires in a low spot that makes a puddle when it rains, you should be fine.
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May 14, 2016 18:50
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kid sinister posted:Probably, but that's how electric fences work: whatever touches it makes a short, either hot-to-ground, or positive-to-negative. Did you ever stick a 9V to your tongue? It's only enough amps to give a tickle, and amps is what melts wires and starts fires. As long as you space the wires out (that 3/4" sounds good) so that rain can't bridge the contacts, and also don't don't put the wires in a low spot that makes a puddle when it rains, you should be fine. Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Really learning a lot now, hoping I'll be able to do more complex stuff for my next project.
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May 16, 2016 08:31
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mike12345 posted:Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Really learning a lot now, hoping I'll be able to do more complex stuff for my next project. This is also why you use a current-limited power supply. If the thing will not explode at 100% rating, then it's fine to short circuit it forever.
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May 16, 2016 22:02
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I have a question about running AV cabling through a wall. I know I can't run a device power cable through wall, literally straight through from the back side to front side. Is there a product to run HDMI and optical and such through a wall? If not I can get in wall rated and put jacks on both sides of the wall. On the same token, what's the code legal way to run 12-18 CAT6 (in wall rated) cables into a wall? I will be using keystones at one end, but where all of the cables come out in the server closet I want to use a patch panel so a ton of keystones seems like a pain in the rear end. Thanks!
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May 17, 2016 23:50
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SiGmA_X posted:I have a question about running AV cabling through a wall. I know I can't run a device power cable through wall, literally straight through from the back side to front side. Is there a product to run HDMI and optical and such through a wall? If not I can get in wall rated and put jacks on both sides of the wall. For power, you can actually run a sort of permanently installed extension cord in the wall. That's a recent change and came up a few pages ago here. We also found out that only a couple of the products on the market for this right now are actually up to code. Basically, look for one with 2 boxes, one inlet, one outlet (NO duplexes) and you supply the NM in between. To power it, plug a regular extension cord into the inlet and the other end into an outlet, surge protector, etc. The rules for running low voltage are much more relaxed than for mains voltage. You could leave the a section of the wall open if you'd like, but I'd make the hole as small as possible, just to keep your heating and cooling bills down. Feel free to look for something prettier if you want, like a scoop or a pocket or a felt-lined opening. The same goes for your A/V and data cables. Also, it's not detailed in the electrical code and I'd have to look it up, but there are best practices for running CAT6 to get the best data transfer rates: minimum turn radius, don't yank on it too hard, etc. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 00:05
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kid sinister posted:For power, you can actually run a sort of permanently installed extension cord in the wall. That's a recent change and came up a few pages ago here. We also found out that only a couple of the products on the market for this right now are actually up to code. Basically, look for one with 2 boxes, one inlet, one outlet (NO duplexes) and you supply the NM in between. To power it, plug a regular extension cord into the inlet and the other end into an outlet, surge protector, etc. I am moving a receptacle at from the front side of a wall into the closet behind it. I am going to convert the front receptacle into a j-box and run wire down a few inches and out the other side of the wall and into another 2 gang box, which I will attach two duplexes to. I should put the male duplex there, and then another female duplex right behind the TV, so I can surge protect the TV. Makes sense, thanks for the input there! kid sinister posted:The rules for running low voltage are much more relaxed than for mains voltage. You could leave the a section of the wall open if you'd like, but I'd make the hole as small as possible, just to keep your heating and cooling bills down. Feel free to look for something prettier if you want, like a scoop or a pocket or a felt-lined opening. The same goes for your A/V and data cables. I'm also going to be running a few 240v circuits, but I haven't decided if they will be fished through studs or ran in conduit above the sheetrock. I will come back for more answers once I make that decision and have gotten together a rough parts list. One more question while I'm on it: What is the least expensive way to feed power from the main structure and out to a detached shed? The shed already has one 120v circuit, but it will need a 240v ran to it as well. What say you all! Thanks.
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May 18, 2016 02:41
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I need to run some conduit under a deck for a pool. Right now there's a GFCI outlet attached to the deck, and it's not done right by the PO, it's not in a wet use box just "wet when closed", it's just romex into running into the side of the house, no conduit (Under a deck still needs conduit since it's outdoors correct?, and I"m not even 100% sure the wire's stapled /supported correctly. It's my understanding that I cannot run the conduit through the joists of the deck correct? I need to support on the bottom. of the deck My question is do I need to run conduit all the way to the panel, or can I put a Jbox inside the house and then run conduit to thatand connect to the wires that run to the panel?
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May 19, 2016 14:31
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tater_salad posted:I need to run some conduit under a deck for a pool. Outdoors you need a weather resistant GFCI with an in use cover. Those covers can either be the dome type, or flat ones with the pop out accordion faces. You can use the flat flip up covers if it's somewhat protected outside, like under a covered porch. You can run conduit through joists, but the difficultly is that you need to drill a big rear end hole at a right angle in a tight space and you will be forced into using watertight flex conduit. If you're running conduit across the joists, I would just attach conduit to the bottoms. Conduit is necessary only where it is exposed outdoors. There is another rule for conduit that only allows a maximum of 360° of bends between pull points (boxes, fittings with removable covers). That one is mainly for ease of pulling wires. Running that conduit all the way back to the panel is your option, depending on how hard it would be indoors. Like, say, your panel is located right where the conduit will enter your house and there's lots of room to attach the conduit properly to your panel box and you maintain the 360 rule, then definitely consider it. Otherwise, I would run NM from the panel to a junction box, then switch to THWN for the conduit. Nearly 100% of THHN is also certified THWN by the way.
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May 19, 2016 17:42
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Yeah I thought about doing the conduit to the bottom it's just easier than going through for reasons you mentioned. It'll be a fairly straight run with 180 total, 90 turn up to the facing board then 90 to the back of the wet in use box. There's nothing saying I can't oversize my conduit is there? Id probably want to go size+1 where possible.
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May 19, 2016 21:40
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tater_salad posted:There's nothing saying I can't oversize my conduit is there? Nope! You could run bell wire down a 12" pipe if you wanted. You just can't go smaller. Don't forget all your fittings!
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May 20, 2016 02:20
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I'm replacing a bunch of beige outlets with white TR outlets in my kid's new room, then doing the same in the nursery she's moving out of. The rest of the house is 12 gauge 20amp. This is the only place I think I've found anything using the backstabs except for a utility room that may have been an addition (had to add gfi outlets in a bunch of places when we moved in). The outlets I have only allow 14 gauge backstabs. Is the amount you strip for screw terminals the same as you'd use for backstabs? I'd rather go that route but if 12 gauge backstabs are still a thing that would be easier/faster. edit: I think I'm going to get some 'commercial grade' TR outlets that have the side clamp doodads like 
PuTTY riot fucked around with this message at 01:38 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 00:49
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PuTTY riot posted:I'm replacing a bunch of beige outlets with white TR outlets in my kid's new room, then doing the same in the nursery she's moving out of. The rest of the house is 12 gauge 20amp. This is the only place I think I've found anything using the backstabs except for a utility room that may have been an addition (had to add gfi outlets in a bunch of places when we moved in). The outlets I have only allow 14 gauge backstabs. Is the amount you strip for screw terminals the same as you'd use for backstabs? I'd rather go that route but if 12 gauge backstabs are still a thing that would be easier/faster. I don't think I've ever seen actual backstab outlets that take 12ga; 14ga only. That said, there are new-manufacture outlets that use a screw plate and let you slide the stripped wire into the back of the outlet. This is not a backstab as such; it's actually good at its job and won't come apart in fire and doom. These take 12 or 14ga solid or stranded. Well worth it for the convenience.
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May 22, 2016 01:38
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PuTTY riot posted:edit: Yeah do those. Backstabs are fires waiting to happen.
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May 22, 2016 02:48
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