Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

A couple guys tried to rob my aunt this morning when she was getting into her car, they pulled her our of the car but then they couldn't start it because of a security lock so she pulled the guy out and fought them off lol.

She was lucky they weren't armed...

# ? May 7, 2016 19:53

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# ? May 18, 2024 05:07

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Sounds like MUD supporters.

(Sorry, since that other idiot got suspended for 7 days, someone has to fill in?)

# ? May 7, 2016 20:22

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Labradoodle posted:

Adding to what everyone else said, Venezuela is a smartphone obsessed society, pretty much everyone has one, ranging from budget phones to flagships. Thieves seek them out because they're the smallest, most high-value item that any given person is likely to carry on the streets of Caracas. The most common methods of robberies in Caracas are sliding up to pedestrians on the sidewalks and holding them up, getting on buses and robbing everyone on board, or robbing cars during traffic jams.

To give you an idea of how attractive phones can be, a $100 model such as a Moto E would equal around five months of minimum wage around here (and that's including food stamps, which make up half of those wages, so in truth it would be almost ten months of work). A robber can take it in seconds and then resell it online at a small loss to move it fast. As to how people are able to afford them, during years, the government has been importing Chinese smartphones and giving them out at a fraction of their cost, plus for a long time before that they gave out a yearly allotment of dollars for online purchases using credit cards. So, for years, anyone with access to a credit card could spend up to $400 per year to buy themselves new gadgets online, and then, in turn pay only a fraction of its true price to the government who gave away those dollars at Bs6,30.

The government essentially gave you a yearly allotment to get a nearly free flagship phone in between populist policies and corruption, I'm surprised the economy didn't collapse sooner.

I think it's mostly a status thing. But then again, stuff like this happens and you just get to thinking that Venezuelans are loving unsalvageable:

https://twitter.com/AKurmanaev/status/725075517884485632

How the gently caress is a robber selling anything at a loss?

# ? May 8, 2016 04:17

Guacamayo: Feb 2, 2012

My Imaginary GF posted:

How the gently caress is a robber selling anything at a loss?

I think he means that the robber sells the iPhone below marketing valie e.g. that $100 moto E is sild for less than $100.

# ? May 8, 2016 04:26

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

Guacamayo posted:

I think he means that the robber sells the iPhone below marketing valie e.g. that $100 moto E is sild for less than $100.

Woops. Yep, that was it.

# ? May 8, 2016 05:25

zocio: Nov 3, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

How the gently caress is a robber selling anything at a loss?

The phone is worth less than the bullets he fired.

# ? May 8, 2016 19:25

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

zocio posted:

The phone is worth less than the bullets he fired.

Interesting. How much do bullets cost in Venezuela?

# ? May 8, 2016 21:07

Adventure Pigeon: Nov 8, 2005; I am a master storyteller.

So I'm seeing a few news articles saying that Venezuela's neighbors are preparing for a potential refugee crisis. It's completely insane to think that there could actually be one in Latin America, not due to war or civil conflict, but primarily because of a complete failure of a government to govern.

# ? May 9, 2016 02:27

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Adventure Pigeon posted:

So I'm seeing a few news articles saying that Venezuela's neighbors are preparing for a potential refugee crisis. It's completely insane to think that there could actually be one in Latin America, not due to war or civil conflict, but primarily because of a complete failure of a government to govern.

When you prioritize ideology over feeding people, anything is possible!

# ? May 9, 2016 06:49

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

Cicero posted:

When you prioritize ideology over feeding people, anything is possible!

Their ideology is: steal as much money as possible

At this point I'm convinced that it's not that they are incompetent or stupid or anything like that, they are just evil, they don't care that millions of people are hungry everyday, they don't care that thousands of people are dying in hospitals and/or at home because of a lack of medicines, they don't care about anything but staying in power and sucking this country dry.

# ? May 9, 2016 14:50

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

El Hefe posted:

Their ideology is: steal as much money as possible

At this point I'm convinced that it's not that they are incompetent or stupid or anything like that, they are just evil, they don't care that millions of people are hungry everyday, they don't care that thousands of people are dying in hospitals and/or at home because of a lack of medicines, they don't care about anything but staying in power and sucking this country dry.

They are typical American installed dictators in method, despite being anti-American in rhetoric.

# ? May 9, 2016 16:04

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

fishmech posted:

They are typical American installed dictators in method, despite being anti-American in rhetoric.

American installed dictators are much worse than the other kind. Where a dictator organically occurs, people are happy to starve or die of treatable illness or violence in the street because of the PRIDE of sticking it in the eye of Amerikkka!
:goonsay:

# ? May 9, 2016 16:15

Adventure Pigeon: Nov 8, 2005; I am a master storyteller.

Also the bit about not having been installed by America.

The events that lead to PSUV's rise been discussed before, but not in a while. I remember a lot of it was due to the fact that the poor were getting screwed over. The PSUV took power, instituted a bunch of social reforms but also consolidated their hold on power as much as power as possible. If I remember, scarcity became an issue even before oil started to fall due to price controls and government mismanagement (especially of the oil industry). Then Chavez died, oil fell, and everything turned into a mess. What did I miss? Are there other parts that need more detail?

# ? May 9, 2016 18:05

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

El Hefe posted:

At this point I'm convinced that it's not that they are incompetent or stupid or anything like that, they are just evil,

I don't know if this is true, but it is front-and-center on Wikipedia's article for Maduro. This is his signature:

The guy obviously doesn't even know how to read or write. That signature is the modern-day equivalent of writing an X.

# ? May 9, 2016 18:39

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Adventure Pigeon posted:

Also the bit about not having been installed by America.

The events that lead to PSUV's rise been discussed before, but not in a while. I remember a lot of it was due to the fact that the poor were getting screwed over. The PSUV took power, instituted a bunch of social reforms but also consolidated their hold on power as much as power as possible. If I remember, scarcity became an issue even before oil started to fall due to price controls and government mismanagement (especially of the oil industry). Then Chavez died, oil fell, and everything turned into a mess. What did I miss? Are there other parts that need more detail?

This is a pretty good general overview, I think. I'd add some points to help clarify the timeline a bit:

Chavez was a relatively moderate president during his first few years in office (1999-2002). It is certainly the case that he ran as an outsider and that those who voted for him hoped that he would radically overhaul the political order at the time, but you didn't start seeing the more substantially transformative policies until 2002-2003. I think that the 2002 coup d'etat scared him and the rest of chavismo into really entrenching themselves in anticipation for future coups.
The 2003 oil strike resulted in the "re-nationalization" of PDVSA, which is when Chavez fired thousands of skilled, experienced PDVSA workers for their political activities. I don't have figures handy, but oil production took an obvious hit during/immediately after the oil strike. I'm not sure that it has ever fully recovered. I'd be interested to see a graph showing something like PDVSA oil output over the last 20 years.
The currency exchange restrictions were implemented in 2003, so this is when we started to see those really harmful market disruptions that have resulted in the situation the country finds itself in today. Anecdotally, I remember first becoming aware of scarcity around this time (2004-2005). I visited Venezuela for a summer and my grandma wanted to bake me a birthday cake, but she wasn't able to because she wasn't able to find some of the ingredients (milk and/or eggs). Anyway, all of this is to say that yes, scarcity was an issue before, but nothing like what the country has seen since 2013.

The most immediate cause of the crisis today is the fall of oil prices starting in 2014, but the underlying causes go back to the first years of the Chavez presidency. He built up a system that put all of its eggs in the oil basket.

I remember reading an interview with Jorge Giordani, who was the head of the economy in the early Chavez years. Back then, oil was at something like 8 dollars per barrel. Giordani says that he told Chavez, "Run the country on this income; if the price of oil ever rises, set aside that money for a rainy day". Giordani says that Chavez ignored him and started burning every cent that came into the country through oil (which makes up like 95% of Venezuela's income).

By the end of that first decade, when oil was hitting record highs, none of that money was saved. It was either stolen or spent.

Saladman posted:

The guy obviously doesn't even know how to read or write. That signature is the modern-day equivalent of writing an X.

I wonder if he ever signs and cheque and then goes, "Ah! Dammit, sorry. I gotta do it again. I only drew fifteen peaks, not sixteen".

# ? May 9, 2016 18:43

fnox: May 19, 2013

Capriles is apparently calling for a protest in front of the CNE headquarters this Wednesday.

Who wants to bet the CNE does something and he calls it off tomorrow? Or rather, the "protest" ends up being some minor concentration in Bello Monte, nowhere near close the CNE building.

# ? May 9, 2016 18:46

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Holy gently caress I just read a bio of your president and he never graduated highschool

# ? May 9, 2016 23:04

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Like most of the third world you racist elists AmeriKKKan bastard!

(How the gently caress is AmeriKKKan supposed to be pronounced anyway?)

# ? May 9, 2016 23:07

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Sergg posted:

Holy gently caress I just read a bio of your president and he never graduated highschool

Neither did Abraham Lincoln (or arguably George Washington, though it's hard to map what would count as high school for that time). They just weren't also incompetent fuckups.

# ? May 9, 2016 23:08

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

fishmech posted:

Neither did Abraham Lincoln (or arguably George Washington, though it's hard to map what would count as high school for that time). They just weren't also incompetent fuckups.

They also won violent civil wars which killed or otherwise drove off not-insignificant portions of their nations' populations.

# ? May 9, 2016 23:53

fnox: May 19, 2013

Sergg posted:

Holy gently caress I just read a bio of your president and he never graduated highschool

I am fairly certain he's not the most uneducated member of the executive branch, that's how bad cronyism and nepotism is in the government.

# ? May 10, 2016 00:35

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Saladman posted:

I don't know if this is true, but it is front-and-center on Wikipedia's article for Maduro. This is his signature:

The guy obviously doesn't even know how to read or write. That signature is the modern-day equivalent of writing an X.

To be fair, a lot of people who are presumably not illiterate have signatures not much better than Maduro's. Look at the one Jack Lew used to have.

# ? May 10, 2016 00:49

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

They are typical American installed dictators in method, despite being anti-American in rhetoric.

You make a good point. Is the PSUV actually a CIA front?

# ? May 10, 2016 01:07

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

The Lone Badger posted:

You make a good point. Is the PSUV actually a CIA front?

No, if the CIA tried they'd have accidentally made a South American Norway. :v:

# ? May 10, 2016 01:20

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

The CNE finished counting all of the signatures today, and according to a MUD figure familiar with the process, they tallied up 1,786,000, which is well over the ~195,000 that the CNE asked for.

The announcement that the count was finished came a few hours after the opposition called for the demonstration on Wednesday, which will start at 9:00 AM at a subway station nearby and end at the CNE headquarters in Caracas.

The PSUV responded by calling for its own demonstration on Wednesday morning at the Miraflores Palace.

Just a little while ago, PSUV big wig Jorge Rodriguez called on the CNE to put a stop to the recall referendum process if any violence takes place at the demonstration on Wednesday:

quote:

We're going to ask the Electoral Power [the CNE] that if there's any kind of demonstration (...) any kind of violent action against any electoral building or electoral officer, that they suspend the [referendum] process until the situation becomes normal and peaceful again, because every Venezuelan has the right to work in peace.

It's not clear if he meant to say that they should stop the process if anything demonstration takes place, or if any demonstration of violence takes place. Anyway, I don't really think that what he says/doesn't say matters very much, because if there's one thing I've learned about Venezuela is that the government can do whatever it wants whenever it wants regardless of whether or not they did/didn't say something in the past.

I don't think the PSUV will take it that far, but I'm still going to be keeping a close eye on the news on Wednesday to see if they try to pull anything stupid, like suspending the process.

# ? May 10, 2016 02:26

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

Meanwhile in a supermarket in Caracas

https://twitter.com/Yusnaby/status/729822589426622464

# ? May 10, 2016 17:32

Hugoon Chavez: Nov 4, 2011; THUNDERDOME LOSER

El Hefe posted:

Meanwhile in a supermarket in Caracas

https://twitter.com/Yusnaby/status/729822589426622464

Dude that's were my mom used to to most of her shopping, I've been there a lot. drat.

# ? May 10, 2016 18:13

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

Supermarket fights are a common thing now really, my brother had his arms scratched by some woman over a bag of rice a few weeks ago, meanwhile Delcy Rodriguez goes to OEA and tells the other countries that everything is fine here and that its all a lie by the media trying to ruin Maduro's reputation.

# ? May 10, 2016 18:47

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

It looks like at least they didn't believe her lies:

quote:

Venezuela: Statement from OAS Secretary General Luis Almagro
May 10, 2016

I have followed with concern the accusations by sectors of the government of Venezuela that label as �traitors to the country� a group of legislators elected by the people of that country for recently visiting me and telling me about the situation in the country and recalling the commitments that govern all of us in the Hemisphere, in terms of the defense of democracy and respect for human rights.

The instruments of the Inter-American system that seek to defend democratic systems have been agreed upon by all our governments. They are not intended for the protection of governments, but for the good of the citizens of our Hemisphere. They are the final participants and the primary focus of our obligations.

The OAS Charter says, in its Preamble, that �the true significance of American solidarity and good neighborliness can only mean the consolidation on this continent, within the framework of democratic institutions, of a system of individual liberty and social justice based on respect for the essential rights of man.�

For its part, the Inter-American Democratic Charter (IDC) begins by recalling that �The peoples of the Americas have a right to democracy and their governments have an obligation to promote and defend it.� Hence, no one who acts toward that end can be a traitor to their country.

My duty as Secretary General is to ensure compliance with Inter-American rules that our countries have agreed to and that bind us all.

The IDC therefore, is not an instrument imposed on countries, nor is its objective to punish. The possible sanctions are the last of its recourses. The IDC was unanimously approved in 2001 by all the governments of the Americas as a set of provisions that reinforce the solidarity of the Americas for the strengthening of its institutions in the recognition of the �participatory nature of democracy,� as is affirmed in its Preamble.

Time and time again, the text of this Charter reiterates that the actions that can be carried out by the OAS have as their goal offering assistance �for the strengthening and preservation of democratic institutions,� �the preservation of its democratic system,� and �to foster the restoration of democracy.� Someone who asks for help, good offices or diplomatic actions therefore cannot be considered a traitor.

Those who reaffirmed these rights for our peoples in 2001 were not traitors, nor were those who committed themselves on behalf of their countries to care for these rights. Nor have the people who have appealed for the help of the OAS in the years since the Charter was signed betrayed their countries.

It is enough to remember the role played by the OAS General Secretariat in 2002, at the request of President Hugo Ch�vez Fr�as and in compliance with the IDC.

That is why, whoever wants more rights, more liberty, more democracy for their people, and appeals for the aid of the Inter-American instruments that have their distant roots in Panama in 1826, should be considered a patriot and a defender of democracy, beyond considerations of to which political party they belong.

http://www.oas.org/en/media_center/press_release.asp?sCodigo=E-057/16

# ? May 10, 2016 18:57

M. Discordia: Apr 30, 2003; by Smythe

Sergg posted:

Holy gently caress I just read a bio of your president and he never graduated highschool

There are posts in this thread from two years ago that called skepticism of an illiterate bus driver managing a national economy "classist."

# ? May 11, 2016 01:10

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Like El Hefe said, Foreign Affairs Minister Delcy Rodriguez was at the Organization of American States last week. She was there repeating the government line that the scarcity crisis is not real, and that whatever little scarcity does exist is actually manufactured by domestic and foreign enemies. The cherry on the cake of disinformation was Rodriguez saying that over the past two years, Venezuela has imported "enough food to feed three countries the size of Venezuela", which is a weird thing to say because there hasn't been enough food in the country in the last two years to feed even one Venezuela.

Today, DolarToday sent a video crew out to check out a market in the west end of Caracas, which captured some interesting footage. If you thought you had a stressful day today, please watch this video to see what buying toilet paper is like in Venezuela. Below is my translation of the video:

quote:

Officers: Line up one behind the other. Start lining up here, one behind the other.

Man in Blue: Let me tell you something � we can�t eat toilet paper. To Foreign Affairs Minister [Delcy] Rodriguez: you�re a liar! [She says that] we have enough food to give to three nations. If we don�t have enough food for Venezuela, how can we give food to three nations? She might as well have said we give food to the United States!

[Crowd claps in approval]

Cameraman: What message do you have for Nicolas Maduro about this scarcity?

Man in Blue: That he should look at the people � he should come here and see the lines. There is no food. There is no food! And this morning, the [National] Guard came and did whatever they wanted. Whatever they wanted!

Cameraman: Alright, we�re here in Caracas on May 10, and we can see that in the west of the city here people are lining up to buy toilet paper, which is a basic necessity. We can see a large number of people here in the west of the city of Caracas, Venezuela.

# ? May 11, 2016 01:45

fnox: May 19, 2013

Caracas is heavily militarized right now, btw. It is apparently due to the "Operaciones de Liberacion del Pueblo", what the government has dubbed armed excursions into the slums to kill and arrest thugs, like what Brazil did with BOPE, but nobody is quite sure right now.

# ? May 11, 2016 03:00

NLJP: Aug 26, 2004

Saladman posted:

I don't know if this is true, but it is front-and-center on Wikipedia's article for Maduro. This is his signature:

The guy obviously doesn't even know how to read or write. That signature is the modern-day equivalent of writing an X.

Well, I mean sure but having said that, Russian Cursive exists:

edit:

# ? May 11, 2016 09:40

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

NLJP posted:

Well, I mean sure but having said that, Russian Cursive exists:

edit:

This is why we won the Cold War.

# ? May 11, 2016 10:24

Celexi: Nov 25, 2006; Slava Ukraini!

yeah, russian cursive is pretty weird

# ? May 11, 2016 13:42

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Where's Borneo Jimmy? I want to see him explain how this is actually a good thing

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?Art...rald+Tribune%29

Glorious bolivarians gallantly fight capitalist pig dog protesters, scoring a david over goliath like victory over them!

# ? May 11, 2016 14:36

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

Does this represent a change of approach by the government, regarding the "peace zones"?

# ? May 11, 2016 15:10

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

gobbagool posted:

Where's Borneo Jimmy? I want to see him explain how this is actually a good thing

He got probated for a week on the last page in this thread. You'll have to wait another couple days for your regularly-scheduled idiocy.

# ? May 11, 2016 15:13

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Saladman posted:

He got probated for a week on the last page in this thread. You'll have to wait another couple days for your regularly-scheduled idiocy.

Oh, thanks. That post seems rather...mild compared to his usual cheerleading

# ? May 11, 2016 15:14

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# ? May 18, 2024 05:07

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Mukip posted:

Does this represent a change of approach by the government, regarding the "peace zones"?

I don't believe so. This isn't the first time this year that the government has assaulted a peace zone. This is part of the OLP, which is a security operation that does exactly these sort of things: ride up into gang-controlled neighbourhoods with hundreds of heavily armed officers, kill and arrest some people, and then ride out. The OLP started late last year, although it's possible that there was something like it before under a different name.

The Cota 905 saw an OLP raid in September of last year that left at least 14 people dead and over a hundred arrested. Like the article that gobbagool linked says, apparently the government deployed tanks there for the first time yesterday. These aren't battle tanks, by the way. Here's a picture of one of them from the Cota 905 yesterday:

The zonas de paz are a bit of a weird thing in that the government still raids them sometimes if the violence they contain spreads out onto other areas. I remember that one of the Cota 905 raids (it might be the same one I referenced earlier) happened almost immediately after a motorcade carrying some government minister was attacked as it drove by the Cota 905.

# ? May 11, 2016 15:26

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