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On the subject of my earlier list, why exactly do people think the idea of other spider-people showing up in the Spider-films unlikely? I dunno. The idea of Peter as a loner never sat well with me, especially when he had a long running book about teaming up with people.
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May 9, 2016 22:16
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ImpAtom posted:I'd love to see the MCU actually take on original characters a bit more honestly, but I know it's more marketable to use existing ones. And therein lies the problem, because most of the marketable ones are just gender swapped versions male characters we already have or have their rights with other studios. And there's no incentive in just doubling down on female Thors, Iron Mans, or Spider-Mans. MacheteZombie posted:The fact you continue to push that Squirrel Girl live action is an impossibility is ridiculous. You even point out in a prior post its more about economics than about storytelling. So again I say, Marvel isn't trying to adapt them. And you act like economics means nothing. Also economics has nothing do with Squirrel Girl being a bad fit, that's more for other characters. I'd say make a Pixar movie of that right now and it would make a lot of money easily. It just wouldn't work in the MCU.
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May 9, 2016 22:20
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X-O posted:And therein lies the problem, because most of the marketable ones are just gender swapped versions male characters we already have or have their rights with other studios. And there's no incentive in just doubling down on female Thors, Iron Mans, or Spider-Mans. Yeah, that's the truth. You can make an original hero or you can turn, I donno, Mary-Jane into Spider-Jackpot and the latter would probably do better just for existing alongside Spider-Man. 
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May 9, 2016 22:22
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X-O posted:The biggest hurdle to getting a lot of these female heroes is also the biggest hurdle for new male and female superheroes in comics. They're all either derivative of other heroes or are legacy characters. The original ones that don't fall into that category, or that are derivative of characters that don't matter like Tigra, Moondragon, Thundra, White Tiger, Songbird, Miss America, or Elsa Bloodstone is that these characters really couldn't really make it as solo characters in comics much less in movies. That's not to say there's not a way to make them work in movies, but there's no incentive to try from business point of view. You don't make movies out characters that barely make waves in the comics. That's why you're also never going to see a Nova, Red Wolf, Starbrand, Spider-Man 2099 movie or solo movies for characters like Hawkeye and Vision. Hawkeyes family life on a farm is bullshit and deprived me of a Hawkguy Netflix series and I'll never forgive Marvel for that
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May 9, 2016 22:22
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They're obviously willing to play with different ideas for the television properties, going into noir with Daredevil and Jessica Jones. I think a comedic series for Squirrel Girl would work just fine.
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May 9, 2016 22:23
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ImpAtom posted:... She-Hulk is literally named She-Hulk and got her powers from an infusion of Hulk's blood. Unless you change that entirely (and I'm not opposed to that) she is absolutely derivative of another hero. No, she's not. She's always been in control of her personality and conscience from the start, which makes her inherently different from Hulk (who usually gets a name change if he can actually control his thoughts, reinforcing the point). If anything Jennifer Walters' main theme is a professional, serious woman earning respect in a man's world, which is made all that harder because she's seven feet tall and super buff and green. In contrast to Banner's main theme being, well, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
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May 9, 2016 22:23
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Man, She-Hulk is awesome.
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May 9, 2016 22:24
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Toxxupation posted:No, she's not. She's always been in control of her personality and conscience from the start, which makes her inherently different from Hulk (who usually gets a name change if he can actually control his thoughts, reinforcing the point). She-Hulk. As in "Hulk who is she." She is a good character but when he name is literally "Female Hulk" you really can't pretend she isn't a Hulk derivative.
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May 9, 2016 22:24
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ImpAtom posted:She-Hulk. As in "Hulk who is she." That's branding and you know it. Stop arguing in bad faith. MrAristocrates posted:Man, She-Hulk is awesome. Yes, she is.
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May 9, 2016 22:24
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So how many people here would want an Ambush Bug movie?
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May 9, 2016 22:26
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Toxxupation posted:That's branding and you know it. Stop arguing in bad faith. That isn't bad faith? It's literally the point. She is a spinoff of The Hulk. Her powers, history and her name all rely on the Hulk. Unless they change all of that then she literally can not exist without being tied to the Hulk regardless of what they do to her story. This is the point X-O is making. These characters begin with "this is a lady version of (x)" and even if they change things up after the fact they are still inherently tied to being the lady version of a male character.
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May 9, 2016 22:27
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I'm curious to know what people think of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film, not so much as an adaptation, and more as its own thing. I was thinking of re-watching it recently, not having done so in more than 10 years. I saw it when it came out - I would have been about 12 - and I had it on VHS, and I remember thinking it was really clever to use all of these characters from Victorian literature as a kind of Justice League (which was incidentally the newest entry in the DCAU at that time). Of course, I subsequently read the comics and realised it was much bigger than "just" this 19th-century Justice League, but it will be interesting to see how it holds up on its own. It provoked a bit of a mini-boom in movies that used a similar stylistic approach. Van Helsing, obviously. I feel as though it is itself influenced considerably by the Blade movies.
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May 9, 2016 22:27
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X-O posted:And you act like economics means nothing. Also economics has nothing do with Squirrel Girl being a bad fit, that's more for other characters. I'd say make a Pixar movie of that right now and it would make a lot of money easily. It just wouldn't work in the MCU. It wouldn't make a billion dollars, but I can safely guarantee it'd make it's money back and then some.
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May 9, 2016 22:27
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Toxxupation posted:No, she's not. She's always been in control of her personality and conscience from the start, which makes her inherently different from Hulk (who usually gets a name change if he can actually control his thoughts, reinforcing the point). "She-Hulk was created by Stan Lee, who wrote only the first issue, and was the last character he created for Marvel Comics[3] before his return to comics with Ravage 2099 in 1992. The reason behind the character's creation had to do with the success of The Incredible Hulk (1977–82) and The Bionic Woman TV series. Marvel was afraid that the show's executives might suddenly introduce a female version of the Hulk, as had been done with The Six Million Dollar Man, so Marvel decided to publish their own version of such a character to make sure that if a similar one showed up in the TV series, Marvel would own the rights.[4][5]" Also the same reason Jessica Drew was created.
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May 9, 2016 22:28
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Like I honestly can't remember the last time She-Hulk even interacted with Hulk in any capacity whatsoever. It certainly didn't happen, ever, in her most recent solo. I don't think she even mentions him in any capacity during the Soule run.
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May 9, 2016 22:28
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Being derivative doesn't mean you can't also be a good character in your own right. She-Hulk and Silk are absolutely derivatives but they're also great characters. The point of the matter is that a studio that's putting out a Spider-Man movie might be hesitant to put out a movie simultaneously that's derivative of that. We've already seen with Sony's planned Venom that they're pretty much completely divorcing him from anything having to do with the actual character.MacheteZombie posted:It wouldn't make a billion dollars, but I can safely guarantee it'd make it's money back and then some. Again, unlike the other characters we're talking about economics has nothing to do with why Squirrel Girl wouldn't work as an MCU film. If you actually wanted it to be part of the MCU you'd have to change the character to the point that it would even resemble the character as it exists in the book right now.
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May 9, 2016 22:29
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Toxxupation posted:That's branding and you know it. Stop arguing in bad faith. Yes she is a different character from Banner, that doesn't mean she's not a derivative. Miles Morales Spider-Man is a derivative of Peter Parker, Kamala Khan Ms Marvel is a derivative of Carol Danvers , War-Machine was a derivative of Iron-man Even if their powers are different they are considered derivatives of the previously existing one.
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May 9, 2016 22:29
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't bad faith? It's literally the point. She is a spinoff of The Hulk. Her powers, history and her name all rely on the Hulk. Unless they change all of that then she literally can not exist without being tied to the Hulk regardless of what they do to her story. This is the point X-O is making. These characters begin with "this is a lady version of (x)" and even if they change things up after the fact they are still inherently tied to being the lady version of a male character. Weren't you just arguing that origins don't matter? Like literally just?
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May 9, 2016 22:30
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Can we all agree that the promise of spiffy Vision was fuckig over fulfilled? Walking around like an Assistant Professor. It was all good stuff. I can see Vision wiling away his time in his favorite craft beer beer garden before Ubering over to listen to a live Moth Story Slam.
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May 9, 2016 22:31
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm curious to know what people think of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film, not so much as an adaptation, and more as its own thing. I was thinking of re-watching it recently, not having done so in more than 10 years. I saw it when it came out - I would have been about 12 - and I had it on VHS, and I remember thinking it was really clever to use all of these characters from Victorian literature as a kind of Justice League (which was incidentally the newest entry in the DCAU at that time). Of course, I subsequently read the comics and realised it was much bigger than "just" this 19th-century Justice League, but it will be interesting to see how it holds up on its own. As a whole film, it's a mess. Mina/Peta, Dorian Gray, Nemo/WhateverHisActor'sNameIs and the design of the Nautilus are the easy highlights but everything around them is just...muddy. Effects are unfinished, the bad guy's a snooze, and action scenes are overall pretty generic. THAT SAID I always find myself watching at least a little bit when it shows up on Encore or FX.
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May 9, 2016 22:32
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Toxxupation posted:Like I honestly can't remember the last time She-Hulk even interacted with Hulk in any capacity whatsoever. It certainly didn't happen, ever, in her most recent solo. I don't think she even mentions him in any capacity during the Soule run. That doesn't mean anything. Her creation was Cousin of Bruce Banner, who got a blood transfusion to become She-Hulk a weaker female version of the Hulk. Don't get me wrong, Writers have done great work with her and her stuff has been more enjoyable than like any Hulk story recently IMO but doesn't mean she's not a derivative.
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May 9, 2016 22:32
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm curious to know what people think of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film, not so much as an adaptation, and more as its own thing. I was thinking of re-watching it recently, not having done so in more than 10 years. I saw it when it came out - I would have been about 12 - and I had it on VHS, and I remember thinking it was really clever to use all of these characters from Victorian literature as a kind of Justice League (which was incidentally the newest entry in the DCAU at that time). Of course, I subsequently read the comics and realised it was much bigger than "just" this 19th-century Justice League, but it will be interesting to see how it holds up on its own. The best thing about that movie is Roger Ebert's review. http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-league-of-extraordinary-gentlemen-2003
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May 9, 2016 22:32
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Toxxupation posted:Like I honestly can't remember the last time She-Hulk even interacted with Hulk in any capacity whatsoever. It certainly didn't happen, ever, in her most recent solo. I don't think she even mentions him in any capacity during the Soule run. She interacts with him all the time in Hulk comics. He's not currently The Hulk so obviously he isn't an issue at the moment but her interactions with Hulk (or when they were things Red Hulk, or Red She-Hulk or whatever) frequently come up. Also even if she isn't directly interacting with him it doesn't change the fact she is named after and got her powers from the Hulk, any more than Robin is still part of Batman even when he's with the Teen Titans.
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May 9, 2016 22:33
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I dunno why She-Hulk being derivative is a bad thing when we have War Machine as a major recurring character, to be honest.
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May 9, 2016 22:33
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But he's not getting his own movie. They won't even give the more popular Hulk his own movie at this point, so it's not going to happen for the less popular one.
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May 9, 2016 22:34
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TFRazorsaw posted:I dunno why She-Hulk being derivative is a bad thing when we have War Machine as a major recurring character, to be honest. War Machine is kind of an entirely different bundle of issues. He's basically defined as Iron Man's Black Friend these days (not due in any small part to the films) and has uncomfortable and unintentional similarities to the kind of thing Milestone's Hardware criticized in terms of his 'powers' belonging to Tony Stark. He's also not getting his own film. He's an Iron Man supporting character.
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May 9, 2016 22:35
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I miss Terrence Howard War Machine.
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May 9, 2016 22:37
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redbackground posted:As a whole film, it's a mess. Mina/Peta, Dorian Gray, Nemo/WhateverHisActor'sNameIs and the design of the Nautilus are the easy highlights but everything around them is just...muddy. Effects are unfinished, the bad guy's a snooze, and action scenes are overall pretty generic. THAT SAID I always find myself watching at least a little bit when it shows up on Encore or FX. I guess nostalgia is the main appeal for me. My gut instinct is that I prefer the second Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes movie because a) I'm confident that Jared Harris was a better Moriarty than Richard Roxburgh; and b) he does the exact same plan except I'm pretty sure it's much better in Holmes 2 than LXG. Codependent Poster posted:The best thing about that movie is Roger Ebert's review. Haha, that's great. 
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May 9, 2016 22:37
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TFRazorsaw posted:I dunno why She-Hulk being derivative is a bad thing when we have War Machine as a major recurring character, to be honest. It's not, Most of my favorite characters in Marvel right now are derivatives. Miles Morales, Kamala Khan, Silk(forgot her actualy name), Carol Danvers, Gwen Stacy(Spider-Gwen), Jessica Drew.
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May 9, 2016 22:37
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... okay but why do these characters all necessarily need to get their own films? We don't need to hold representation back by restricting things to headliners.
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May 9, 2016 22:38
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Dexo posted:Yes she is a different character from Banner, that doesn't mean she's not a derivative. Well the first one wears its inspirations on its sleeve (and I disagree slightly anyways; Miles being half-black/half-hispanic changes his perspective, which really does fundamentally change his character). The third one is a sidekick so doesn't really count anyways. The second one I would absolutely disagree she's derivative of Carol Danvers. She's a different race, age, religion (and Kamala being Muslim is a huge part of the character), wears a totally different costume, has a totally different origin, isn't even the same race, has totally different powers, and has totally different themes. She's inspired by Carol, sure, but that's more the point - she's literally inspired by her, and takes up the name as more of a tribute than anything. She measures herself against Carol, which is unique to her (over Carol measuring herself against her dad). And if we're going to go on and say that a character is derivative of X or of Y than really what we're saying is every character is a derivative of Superman, making the point moot. Because that's the logical extreme of the argument, really.
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May 9, 2016 22:38
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I never said they do. My argument was never about getting movies or anything. My argument was solely based on those characters being derivatives which Toxx was trying to say wasn't true.
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May 9, 2016 22:39
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Toxxupation posted:And if we're going to go on and say that a character is derivative of X or of Y than really what we're saying is every character is a derivative of Superman, making the point moot. Because that's the logical extreme of the argument, really. You're right we should watch MoS/BvS and talk about that instead. 
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May 9, 2016 22:40
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MacheteZombie posted:I miss Terrence Howard War Machine. That never really happened.
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May 9, 2016 22:41
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Toxxupation posted:And if we're going to go on and say that a character is derivative of X or of Y than really what we're saying is every character is a derivative of Superman, making the point moot. Because that's the logical extreme of the argument, really. And you accuse other people of making bad faith arguments.
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May 9, 2016 22:43
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TFRazorsaw posted:... okay but why do these characters all necessarily need to get their own films? They don't. The question at hand was what big name female heroes there were that Marvel. And that naturally became about which ones could carry a movie on their own. I mean a lot of these could easily guest in other movies, but I'm not sure that's really addressing the problem of female leads. Right now I think you could easily have Black Widow along with Captain Marvel as leads. I think maybe after Infinity War if she's built enough that Scarlet Witch may have a shot too. She's been well received in Civil War for good reason. Considering you probably might not have any solo Thor, Iron Man, or Cap movies going forward that's a pretty good chunk of your solo films being female led. X-O fucked around with this message at 22:47 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 22:43
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Dexo posted:My argument was solely based on those characters being derivatives which Toxx was trying to say wasn't true. There's degrees of derivation. Current Ms. Marvel I would absolutely argue is not a derivative of Carol Danvers, but even if you believe it is (which, at that point, I would respond "Well every superhero is a derivative of Superman so, it doesn't really much matter") she's far less of a derivative character than Supergirl is to Superman.
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May 9, 2016 22:44
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Ignite Memories posted:That never really happened. Yeah I should have just said Rhodey.
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May 9, 2016 22:44
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The history of superhero comics is people taking lovely characters created by hacky writers for stupid reasons decades ago and somehow making audiences love them. The movies shouldn't be any different.
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May 9, 2016 22:45
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It would be pretty easy to make MCU Nova a woman/teenage girl. Movie Xandar is a tracked and close to destruction, Glenn Close invokes the Nova Prine protocol and uploads her mind along with the power and history of their culture into the helmet and becomes the worldmind, helmet gets sent to earth b/c idk the Guardians were visiting but it goes off course from them and lands in Nebraska or, poo poo, New Delhi. We're already far enough from the source material Nova Corps that it's an easier departure, don't really need Richard or Sam.
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May 9, 2016 22:45
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