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ImpAtom posted:And you accuse other people of making bad faith arguments. That's not a bad faith argument. It's literally true. Every single superhero is a commentary on or reaction to Superman, in at least some small way. Because he was the first, and set the tone for modern superhero comics that can still be felt to this day.
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May 9, 2016 22:46
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X-O posted:They don't. The question at hand was what big name female heroes there were that Marvel. And that naturally became about which ones could carry a movie on their own. I mean a lot of these could easily guest in other movies, but I'm not sure that's really addressing the problem of female leads. I think it really boils down to the big issue of comics. They're decades old but by and large the defining characters are also decades old. There are very few new success stories and just due to the nature of comics most of the new success stories are themselves spinoffs of already popular characters . The key is to make new successful characters but where are you going to make those characters? In the increasingly small comic market? Are you going to risk headlining a new character in a film? Maybe a television show but even then you can just use an existing characters and... welp. I don't think there are many existing characters. I think they have to make them... and they have little reason to when they can keep using their existing ones. Toxxupation posted:That's not a bad faith argument. It's literally true. Every single superhero is a commentary on or reaction to Superman. Because he was the first, and set the tone for modern superhero comics that can still be felt to this day. You really fundamentally don't see the difference between someone starting a genre and a character named after another character, who is related to that character, and who got their power from that character and how it's a bit dishonest to claim they're the same thing? (Also no, Batman is totally a response to stuff like The Shadow, Green Lantern has Lensman to thank as much as Superman, ect, ect.)
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May 9, 2016 22:47
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ImpAtom posted:
I never said it was the same thing. I said it was the logical extreme of the argument. You know, the part in the post you quoted that said "because that's the logical extreme of the argument"?
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May 9, 2016 22:50
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Hawkeye movie with Clint training Kate so Clint can retire and stay home. Fund it. Squirrel Girl argument is dumb because if Marvel has proved anything, it's that they can make anything work with the right creative forces and care for the source. However, I think a Big Hero 6 style Squirrel Girl sounds like something I'd like to happen.
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May 9, 2016 22:50
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Toxxupation posted:I never said it was the same thing. I said it was the logical extreme of the argument. You know, the part in the post you quoted that said "because that's the logical extreme of the argument"? Going to the 'logical extreme' of an argument is pretty bad faith argument, yes, because you ignore the context in favor of making it extreme to the point of irrelevance. Shawn posted:Squirrel Girl argument is dumb because if Marvel has proved anything, it's that they can make anything work with the right creative forces and care for the source. However, I think a Big Hero 6 style Squirrel Girl sounds like something I'd like to happen. Big Hero 6 is another great example though I doubt BH6 had many fans who gave a poo poo they changed literally everything about it.
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May 9, 2016 22:51
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ImpAtom posted:I think it really boils down to the big issue of comics. I would say the only major completely original female character that Marvel has created to major acclaim in the last, oh 20 years, is Jessica Jones. And could even that have made it as a movie? I don't think so.
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May 9, 2016 22:52
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X-O posted:Again, unlike the other characters we're talking about economics has nothing to do with why Squirrel Girl wouldn't work as an MCU film. If you actually wanted it to be part of the MCU you'd have to change the character to the point that it would even resemble the character as it exists in the book right now. You keep saying this like it's some fundamental truth, but it's really not. "Light hearted movie about a girl with odd powers who wants to be a superhero and defeats villains above her power level with good humour, understanding, butt kicking and squirrels" would fit right into the MCU alongside Ant Man, while still being recognisable as the character. Make it an action comedy with the emotional core being Doreen wanting to be seen as a real super hero. Bam, done.
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May 9, 2016 22:52
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Shawn posted:Hawkeye movie with Clint training Kate so Clint can retire and stay home. Fund it. This would own. And then give us pizza dog and a movie called "Hawkeyes" that's a The Raid styled single night action sequence defending the Bed Stuy apartment from the bros
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May 9, 2016 22:52
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A Black Widow film sounds like a difficult sell to me, in the same way that a Hawkeye film would be.
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May 9, 2016 22:53
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qntm posted:A Black Widow film sounds like a difficult sell to me, in the same way that a Hawkeye film would be. A Black Widow film would just be a Bourne-style action film that happens to take place in the MCU.
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May 9, 2016 22:54
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ImpAtom posted:
And Superman was inspired by dime store serials, and there's actually zero truly original ideas because everything is iterative. Because that's the logical extreme of that argument, too. In which case it doesn't matter that "She-Hulk is derivative of Hulk", because the entire body of creative thought has been building on itself since the invention of storytelling. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:57 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 22:54
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:You keep saying this like it's some fundamental truth, but it's really not. Ant Man didn't do well. 500m on 130m budget isn't good. It's merely okay. Marvel has no incentive to do merely okay right now.
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May 9, 2016 22:55
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qntm posted:A Black Widow film sounds like a difficult sell to me, in the same way that a Hawkeye film would be. Scarlett Johansson has made the character very popular and has proven that she's a big enough star to sell even a bad movie like Lucy. It's a no brainer really and it probably should have been done after Winter Soldier.
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May 9, 2016 22:55
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Disney makes plenty of movies that barely break even.
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May 9, 2016 22:56
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ImpAtom posted:Going to the 'logical extreme' of an argument is pretty bad faith argument, yes, because you ignore the context in favor of making it extreme to the point of irrelevance. No, it's an argumentative tactic. And either way my point is literally the opposite; that context is what's important, so the context that despite the name Jennifer Walters is a massively different character from Bruce Banner in fundamental ways (unless you're seriously trying to argue that Banner's uncontrollable rage isn't a central part of his character) makes her a fundamentally different character. Equating her as a Hulk derivative is insulting to the character.
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May 9, 2016 22:56
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ImpAtom posted:A Black Widow film would just be a Bourne-style action film that happens to take place in the MCU. again, make the villain Taskmaster.
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May 9, 2016 22:57
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Toxxupation posted:And Superman was inspired by dime store serials, and there's actually zero truly original ideas because everything is iterative. Because that's the logical extreme of that argument, too. In which case it doesn't matter that She-Hulk is derivative of Hulk, because the entire body of creative thought has been building on itself since the invention of storytelling. Again, no, it isn't really the same thing. There's a difference between inspiration and "is named after, powered by and related to a character." If they released a film named Barry Potter, starring Harry's cousin, where he is a small-town sheriff that happens to have magical powers and a wand he borrowed from Harry, it would still be a Harry Potter spinoff in a way that Percy Jackson isn't.
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May 9, 2016 22:58
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X-O posted:I would say the only major completely original female character that Marvel has created to major acclaim in the last, oh 20 years, is Jessica Jones. And could even that have made it as a movie? I don't think so. If Kamala Khan didn't have the Ms. Marvel mantle I think it'd be hard to argue she isn't completely original.
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May 9, 2016 22:59
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Aphrodite posted:Ant Man didn't do well. 500m on 130m budget isn't good. It's merely okay. Well that's not true. That didn't announce a sequel into their already established plans because it did merely ok. That had to have been a good enough haul for them to bother.
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May 9, 2016 23:00
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Aphrodite posted:Ant Man didn't do well. 500m on 130m budget isn't good. It's merely okay. Ant-Man's sequel is already announced so they apparently believe it's worth enough to keep going.
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May 9, 2016 23:00
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Expectations for Ant-Man were pretty low but it was cheaper than IM3 and Thor 2. Hell, 500 million on $130 million budget is just about as good as the first Thor movie did. And that movie was part of a teaser at the end of IM2.
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May 9, 2016 23:03
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TFRazorsaw posted:again, make the villain Taskmaster. poo poo I was having a conversation earlier about how bad I want Taskmaster in the MCU but then I couldn't think of who I'd put him opposite and Black Widow is loving perfect
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May 9, 2016 23:03
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Taskmaster is a hero, not a villain 
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May 9, 2016 23:04
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X-O posted:Scarlett Johansson has made the character very popular and has proven that she's a big enough star to sell even a bad movie like Lucy. It's a no brainer really and it probably should have been done after Winter Soldier. Now is the perfect time in Universe for a Black Widow solo movie with her on the outs with Tony and unlikely to be trusted fully by Cap as well. Such a good setup that will amount to nothing.
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May 9, 2016 23:04
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I'd rather an actual female superhero with actual super-powers over a lady who's really good at doing that leglock around the neck sweep thing that Black Widow always does.
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May 9, 2016 23:07
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an 'actual' superhero with 'actual' superpowers,
Shirkelton fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 23:09
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Toxxupation posted:I'd rather an actual female superhero with actual super-powers over a lady who's really good at doing that leglock around the neck sweep thing that Black Widow always does. I'd love to see Black Widow take down a super villain out of her weight class in a straight up fight with cunning, planning, and spycraft. I love those comic storylines. Like BvS but not as... epic? Maybe the wrong word. Maybe a structure similar to the Thomas Jane Punisher movie.
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May 9, 2016 23:13
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Aphrodite posted:Ant Man didn't do well. 500m on 130m budget isn't good. It's merely okay. lol The fact that that movie was critically pretty well received with almost every going against it. It was a crazy success. People went into that movie trying to hate it from what happened with Wright. And because of the character itself. Plus it was loving Ant-Man, like Only Guardians is more obscure, and Guardians at least has the benefit of being so obscure that people don't dismiss it out of hand. And with Guardians the Marketing team landed everything so goddamn perfectly it's kinda scary.
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May 9, 2016 23:13
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Early reviews of X-Men Apocalypse are coming in, and are not good. EDIT: Ouch, CBR's headline is cruel REVIEW: "X-Men: Apocalypse" May Make You Whisper, "No More Mutants"
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May 9, 2016 23:14
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Shawn posted:Disney makes plenty of movies that barely break even. They make plenty of movies that flat-out bomb. Like, two of the biggest bombs of the past five years are John Carter and The Lone Ranger, and those were both Disney's. In fact, does Disney live-action cinema in general do especially well outside the Marvel stuff, (so far) Star Wars and (I suppose) Pirates of the Caribbean? I was reading DisneyWar recently, and it's interesting how these trends develop.
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May 9, 2016 23:14
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X-O posted:Early reviews of X-Men Apocalypse are coming in, and are not good. Fantastic Four not good or Superman v Batman not good?
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May 9, 2016 23:14
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Dan Didio posted:an 'actual' superhero with 'actual' superpowers, The point is that's the majority of female characters in the MCU so far, they've been like Hill or Black Widow or Peggy or Sharon where their "superpower" is that they're really good at fighting people. Black Widow gets it the worst because, just like Hawkeye, the fact that she can take out five or six goons all at once makes her look less important when she's standing next to a guy who can control lightning. Scarlet Witch has been sidelined up to this point but there needs to be more fantastic female characters of her scale. I'm tired of badass women who are basically especially gifted ninjas over loving super heroes.
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May 9, 2016 23:15
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I'd rather the MCU start focusing on an actual male superhero character with actual super powers over a guy in a suit of armor that's really good at doing that arm pointing to shoot missiles and beams thing that Iron Man does. Anyways I hope that the secondary cast that doesn't have full names yet on Spider-man: Homecoming end up being some more young heroes, like just show that they got powers in a scene or two and later on in Phase 4 reveal them as Squirrel Girl, White Tiger and Wiccan
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May 9, 2016 23:16
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AngryBooch posted:I'd love to see Black Widow take down a super villain out of her weight class in a straight up fight with cunning, planning, and spycraft. I love those comic storylines. Like BvS but not as... epic? Maybe the wrong word. Maybe a structure similar to the Thomas Jane Punisher movie. Does Black Widow even have any villains that are kinda specific to her?
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May 9, 2016 23:17
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ImpAtom posted:Fantastic Four not good or Superman v Batman not good? Fantastic Four not good is hopefully never likely again. Most of the reviews seem to cast it as lifeless, boring, and treading ground already done in other X-Men movies.
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May 9, 2016 23:19
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ImpAtom posted:Fantastic Four not good or Superman v Batman not good? Thor 2 not good.
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May 9, 2016 23:19
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ArmyOfMidgets posted:I'd rather the MCU start focusing on an actual male superhero character with actual super powers over a guy in a suit of armor that's really good at doing that arm pointing to shoot missiles and beams thing that Iron Man does. Don't be obtuse. Black Widow has absolutely been crowded out of the Avengers, either of them, especially the latter, because all she can do is fight a couple of dudes really well in hand-to-hand combat. Even Civil War basically sidelines her for a vast majority of the, ahem, airport sequence. I like Black Widow, but she feels like a character that is emblematic of Marvel's inconsistent treatment of female supers in the movies; powerful but clearly out of their league when the "big tough men" are around.
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May 9, 2016 23:22
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Aphrodite posted:Thor 2 not good. Those drat blue villains.
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May 9, 2016 23:22
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Toxxupation posted:If Kamala Khan didn't have the Ms. Marvel mantle I think it'd be hard to argue she isn't completely original. Also, how many completely original male characters has Marvel actually introduced to major acclaim in the past 20 years? Most have been quite derivative or would not clear the highly subjective "major acclaim" bar- i.e. the Sentry is about as prominent as they come (though more Superman derivative than most heroes), but you'd be hard pressed to make a case that people have been clamoring for a film featuring him or really any hero who hasn't existed for 30+ years. But that was also true of the Guardians and Ant-Man (even if the former was a team format). And if you can make those work, there's no reason you can't pick a character like Monica Rambeau, Elsa Bloodstone, or Kamala and make a good solo movie out of them. It's just a matter of getting the right creative team. And you don't even need to do this blind if you set them up in crossover films and see who resonates- i.e. nobody is talking about what a travesty it is we don't already have a solo Black Widow movie if ScarJo hadn't been killing it in a supporting role the past few years. e: ArmyOfMidgets posted:Anyways I hope that the secondary cast that doesn't have full names yet on Spider-man: Homecoming end up being some more young heroes, like just show that they got powers in a scene or two and later on in Phase 4 reveal them as Squirrel Girl, White Tiger and Wiccan LGD fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 23:25
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I don't know why they didn't just give her the mild superpowers deal from the comics. Then at least she can fight anyone except like Vision or Scarlet Witch.
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May 9, 2016 23:26
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