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NecroMonster posted:I've got a super good way to deal with any and all problems you might be having with SFV. yeah, I think I'll play more KI.
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May 11, 2016 01:53
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A.o.D. posted:yeah, I think I'll play more KI. unironically a good idea
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May 11, 2016 01:53
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Zand posted:if the easiest way to get better is by playing other locals why doesn't the game match me with players willing to fight offline against me at their house? how much does the game owe a player? practically no competitive games teach you how to compete at a high level using tools within the game. personally i wish there were more features in sfv, but expecting too much handholding in any competitive game is absurd... like I said, the tools are there, replays and training mode. the game doesn't show you how to use the tools but so what? hammers dont come with instruction manuals either, but you learn by doing. in fact, the act of exploration is a valuable experience in and of itself which has an importance that shouldn't be overlooked Sure, but fighting games don't teach you how to play at a level past "extremely basic" without you having to consult other sources. I'm not saying they MUST - it's just the reality of the genre as it is -, but you improve much faster just by playing other games than you do just by playing fighting games. It requires a lot of homework, as I said, and I feel that just "learning by doing" is the fastest road to getting frustrated and giving up on the genre altogether.
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May 11, 2016 01:53
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Baal posted:Uh play Cammy, she has nice legs I legit was thinking about it, but I'm way too turtly to play Cammy well. I'm not married to top tier, I played Rose during AE, hehe. also c'mon guys i know sfv is disappointing to a lot of us but stop pushing ki
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May 11, 2016 01:55
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have you seen chun-li's legs in that pre-order outfit? cammy cannot compare, sorry.
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May 11, 2016 01:57
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KI is actually fun
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May 11, 2016 01:57
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NecroMonster posted:unironically a good idea I like KI. I've liked KI since 2013. The fact that it's a technically proficient game from a mechanics and game code standpoint don't hurt one bit.
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May 11, 2016 01:57
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Dias posted:Sure, but fighting games don't teach you how to play at a level past "extremely basic" without you having to consult other sources. I'm not saying they MUST - it's just the reality of the genre as it is -, but you improve much faster just by playing other games than you do just by playing fighting games. It requires a lot of homework, as I said, and I feel that just "learning by doing" is the fastest road to getting frustrated and giving up on the genre altogether. It also really doesn't help that the response to the mere suggestion that this aspect of the genre could be improved for new players is to say that the babies want their hand held and they don't wanna practice, etc, when the reality is they just don't know where to start.
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May 11, 2016 01:59
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i've actually held a number of peoples hands through the process of practicing. "here is how you practice this, here is how you practice that" none of them actually practice. You get sort of sick of treating them earnestly after a while. Even despite that, I still try, but not everyone who's been through this over and over and over and over again is going to be as much of a glutton for punishment as I am.
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May 11, 2016 02:03
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Srice posted:It also really doesn't help that the response to the mere suggestion that this aspect of the genre could be improved for new players is to say that the babies want their hand held and they don't wanna practice, etc, when the reality is they just don't know where to start. the basics of the game ARE taught to you inside of the base game. it even breaks down more complex interactions in the challenge mode. if you want to practice, start reading the screen as you play. **the option to save replays is present at the end of every match online, and the option to view them is in the main menu as is training mode** you can even view the ranked replays for top players, sorted by character, with incredible ease. the fact of the matter is that when players "don't know where to start" they just havent been paying attention. also expecting an unexplored competitive game to be released alongside a guidebook for how to play well does not make sense, as competitive games constantly evolve. like this game is nearly featureless but it certainly has everything necessary to get good if you pay attention or put forth any effort whatsoever Zand fucked around with this message at 02:12 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 02:10
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Zand posted:the basics of the game ARE taught to you inside of the base game. it even breaks down more complex interactions in the challenge mode. if you want to practice, start reading the screen as you play. Yeah that just proved my point
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May 11, 2016 02:13
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Srice posted:Yeah that just proved my point ok and I just proved mine so we're even
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May 11, 2016 02:14
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Being condescending towards people asking legit questions is definitely a solution if your goal is to drive them away from the genre.
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May 11, 2016 02:16
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but grandpa Zand, does any of that help me excuse my inability to play well and unwillingness to improve?
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May 11, 2016 02:17
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Srice posted:Being condescending towards people asking legit questions is definitely a solution if your goal is to drive them away from the genre. is expecting people to read the screen of the game they are playing condescending? because apparently im giving them too much credit expecting people to do this and they actually sound like they WANT to be condescended to. maybe the game should teach you the alphabet and how to read too complaining about a game being hard to learn is wholly different than complaining about a game not giving you the tools to learn, even doubly so when it absolutely does give you the tools. Zand fucked around with this message at 02:20 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 02:18
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NecroMonster posted:I've got a super good way to deal with any and all problems you might be having with SFV. Complain about it on internet forums obsessively?
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May 11, 2016 02:19
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Complain about it on internet forums obsessively? I'm talking about advice, not, you know, what I do to fill time and have fun.
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May 11, 2016 02:20
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Zand posted:is expecting people to read the screen of the game they are playing condescending? because apparently im giving them too much credit expecting people to do this and they actually sound like they WANT to be condescended to. maybe the game should teach you the alphabet and how to read too The post I had quoted specifically mentioned about how people have to use out of game resources.
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May 11, 2016 02:21
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Zand posted:the basics of the game ARE taught to you inside of the base game. The very basics if you're playing the one popular and "newbie-recommended" fighting game. Like "block jumpins standing and low attacks crouching". Zand posted:it even breaks down more complex interactions in the challenge mode. Again, if you're playing the one popular game, what interactions are broken down if you're new to the genre? I mean, I can parse cr.MK xx special telling me that that one is my midrange poke, but without my previous background I would just see a "finger puzzle". Zand posted:you can even view the ranked replays for top players, sorted by character, with incredible ease. And this one I never quite understood, especially in this context of "information related by the game". Maybe some people are more visual than me, but I couldn't learn anything from replays until I was a good 200 matches into SF4. I saw people doing things, but I had no idea why those things were "right" or "wrong". It's an amazing tool, but AFTER you understand the game on more than a surface level. Like, I'm not even disagreeing with you, but fighting games are pretty obtuse, and their presentation doesn't help. Some games are a lot better than others at teaching you, like Skullgirls and GGXRD, but they're exceptions, and we're in the SFV thread anyway.
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May 11, 2016 02:22
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Dias posted:And this one I never quite understood, especially in this context of "information related by the game". Maybe some people are more visual than me, but I couldn't learn anything from replays until I was a good 200 matches into SF4. yeah it took me forever to be able to identify the different normals of all the characters i was watching.
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May 11, 2016 02:31
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sometimes, because I basically grew up playing, talking about, and reading about these games, I take things for granted.
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May 11, 2016 02:34
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I had a friend who got me playing guilty gear before I ever really played any street fighter, and now I can't get that friend to play Xrd with me because he thinks the game is just simply too complicated, and I think I agree with him. He works a full time job with a long commute, if he wanted to learn Xrd it would take many weeks of all of his free time to be able to beat your average GG player. People bash SFV for being simpler in combos and tech and such but I think it's just a difference in style, and clearly people prefer simple or else there would be more than 100 people playing guilty gear in NA right now. I grew up playing shooters and RTS games, so doing even "simple" bnb combos in GG is hard as poo poo for me, and I'm really trying to like the game. I think a simpler fighting game is good, but it's a shame that SFV isn't better on a technical level, but I like the way it feels so I think I'm going to keep playing it, and there's plenty of people to play against who are just barely better than me, so thats a big plus.
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May 11, 2016 02:44
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Dias posted:Again, if you're playing the one popular game, what interactions are broken down if you're new to the genre? I mean, I can parse cr.MK xx special telling me that that one is my midrange poke, but without my previous background I would just see a "finger puzzle". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyE6NaaSDA4 to be honest, watching replays is one of the best ways to get good. you can see setups and combos and situations and gain a huge amount of information. i dont think its fair to the game to expect it to teach you how to watch them though. and i hate sfv, dont get me wrong, but its done a really excellent job at making replays easy to access and create. i know you're not disagreeing, this is just a conversation as far as i can tell. and as far as fgs being obtuse, oh well. so is basically every competitive game thats worth a poo poo from most sports to chess to street fighter. what makes this kind of competition between humans tick is something that has been written about extensively and is not a concept limited to only fighters. feeling entitled to an explanation on the basics of competition and handholding on the road to personal achievement in videogames is a new problem that really only exists in the heads of new bloods. like even scrabble doesnt come with a dictionary and opening gambits arent listed on the back of the chess board. Dracula Factory posted:I had a friend who got me playing guilty gear before I ever really played any street fighter, and now I can't get that friend to play Xrd with me because he thinks the game is just simply too complicated, and I think I agree with him. He works a full time job with a long commute, if he wanted to learn Xrd it would take many weeks of all of his free time to be able to beat your average GG player. People bash SFV for being simpler in combos and tech and such but I think it's just a difference in style, and clearly people prefer simple or else there would be more than 100 people playing guilty gear in NA right now. I grew up playing shooters and RTS games, so doing even "simple" bnb combos in GG is hard as poo poo for me, and I'm really trying to like the game. I think a simpler fighting game is good, but it's a shame that SFV isn't better on a technical level, but I like the way it feels so I think I'm going to keep playing it, and there's plenty of people to play against who are just barely better than me, so thats a big plus. trying to learn established combos used at mid- or high-level play is a waste of time for new players. using the game systems effectively to do simple combos like ABC special RC ABC special or ABC super will get you very far. setting your sights too high and trying to achieve something which you do not have time to ever actually do is just setting yourself up for failure. GG is a neat game with cool movement and combos that have extreme scalability of difficulty, which is a big strong point of the series imo. i understand what you mean about it being hard to do the cool poo poo though, because i generally have the MO of go hard or go home in fgs, so its hard for me to effort out the practice to do the cooler poo poo in the game. Zand fucked around with this message at 02:49 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 02:46
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Hi I didn't mean to start some big lovely argument. I just wish it were easier for me to gradually get better instead of just dunking me in the tank with the general SF population which I don't think is a super weird request. I looked up Karin bread and butter stuff and practice in between fighting with the dummy over and over again, so I am not trying to be a lazy poo poo about learning stuff. The problem is that a large part of the game feels like it doesn't translate from CPU to humans. Like I practice the poo poo out of cr MP, st MP, LP sensha but I don't know the situations where I can actually try it without getting poo poo wrecked. Can I do it during footsies stuff? Jump in and cr MP? Against which characters? All this poo poo feels like stuff that gets worked out while playing hundreds of matches against people, which is fine. I just wish it would generally involve people I stand a vague chance against who are doing the same thing. Maybe that isn't possible anymore.
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May 11, 2016 02:47
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Goetta posted:Hi I didn't mean to start some big lovely argument. I just wish it were easier for me to gradually get better instead of just dunking me in the tank with the general SF population which I don't think is a super weird request. I really wish capcom was on the ball enough to have online training mode, I think it's a great low-pressure way to learn the game with someone. You should find local people to play against if you can't strongarm your friends. It's nice to be able to repeat a situation over and over to see how to get out of it and things like that.
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May 11, 2016 02:49
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gg is way simpler to do work in though because practically every character has good poo poo that anyone can chain up.
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May 11, 2016 02:51
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like, the first mistake people make is thinking GG is actually all that hard, yes, there is a lot there, trying to take all of that in at once can be super intimidating. But learning how to chain into sweep or jump in and and then chain into a sweep is so loving easy it might as well be a joke, and at that point you've already gotten closer to playing the game well than you will get in weeks of practicing street fighter.
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May 11, 2016 02:54
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you can practically hit any button next to the last button you hit in gg and it combos
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May 11, 2016 02:58
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SF should have gatling combos
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May 11, 2016 02:59
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It did and it was a very bad game
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May 11, 2016 03:00
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Real hurthling! posted:you can practically hit any button next to the last button you hit in gg and it combos cancel timing is also way more lenient than street fighter, and street fighter style links, the very few that are present, are almost all piss loving easy to do as well and to top all of that off arksys games are generally loaded full of smart tutorial modes, useful challenge and mission modes, and have some of the best training modes in the business.
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May 11, 2016 03:02
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I would honestly debate the quality of the Blazblue challenge modes as they kinda get up their own rear end with frame and position perfect combos that are impractical as hell, but otherwise you can still get a decent grasp of the basics of a character from the first half of them normally
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May 11, 2016 03:03
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NecroMonster posted:cancel timing is also way more lenient than street fighter, and street fighter style links, the very few that are present, are almost all piss loving easy to do as well the links that exist in gg are generally visually understandable. like you might bounce someone off a wall and have to time a hit. or hit someone as they are falling down close to you. and the timings on these things can be pretty tight but generally speaking, they can be broken down visually..
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May 11, 2016 03:04
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S.J. posted:SF should have gatling combos Just bring back Easy Operation!
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May 11, 2016 03:04
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Baal posted:I would honestly debate the quality of the Blazblue challenge modes as they kinda get up their own rear end with frame and position perfect combos that are impractical as hell, but otherwise you can still get a decent grasp of the basics of a character from the first half of them normally a lot of that has to do with Blazblues design in general. Combos tend to be chock-a-block full of obnoxious pauses and very late links just as a matter of course
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May 11, 2016 03:06
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Nah, most bnbs and stuff you'll use at high level aren't gonna really require that kind of nonsense. It's definitely sort of baked into BB's design, but nowhere near as bad as those combos make it seem.
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May 11, 2016 03:08
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Zand posted:the links that exist in gg are generally visually understandable. like you might bounce someone off a wall and have to time a hit. or hit someone as they are falling down close to you. and the timings on these things can be pretty tight but generally speaking, they can be broken down visually.. Yeah, and the visually less obvious stuff (looking at Slayer and Leo here mostly) is generally very very generous in timing, before you even factor in the input buffer.
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May 11, 2016 03:08
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Baal posted:Nah, most bnbs and stuff you'll use at high level aren't gonna really require that kind of nonsense. It's definitely sort of baked into BB's design, but nowhere near as bad as those combos make it seem. I ain't played since Continuum Shift, where even a simple combo out of ground throw with Ragna, contained a loving obnoxious pause. Has this gotten better over time?
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May 11, 2016 03:10
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Zand posted:demonstrations mode Oooh, you mean the demonstration mode thingie, I forgot about that between Melty Blood, Hearthstone and Overwatch taking over my SFV time, hehe. Fair enough, that is a decent resource in-game. Unfortunately that's the kind of thing that should've shipped with the game. I agree about replays, nowadays I read up on a character and then watch people play it to get "how" it's supposed to be played, but I don't think it benefits a new player very much. By new, we're talking about people that are fresh to the genre and haven't even clocked 100 matches in-game. It's easy to see a player doing hard reads on wakeup/neutral and think "oh, this is something I should be doing all the time" before you understand the basics of footsies, frametrapping, etc. The reason why I'm discussing this is that I honestly believe FGs might be the genre that requires the most out-of-game resources in order to improve, even at a basic level, and it's natural for people to feel frustrated since that outside knowledge is often times enough to put up a wall between you and your adversaries. There's a reason why people say it's like chess and not like RPS, right? It's not a bad thing, but it should be addressed to a level so that new people get into the genre, and I don't think it's catering to "lazy millenials". You gotta remember there are guys with literal decades of experience online, and an "09er" has played FGs for 7 years. There's quite a breadth of knowledge required to not get smashed nowadays compared to when I went to arcades and won Tekken Tag matches by doing Jun's stupid 2+4 string over and over. Goetta posted:I looked up Karin bread and butter stuff and practice in between fighting with the dummy over and over again, so I am not trying to be a lazy poo poo about learning stuff. The problem is that a large part of the game feels like it doesn't translate from CPU to humans. Like I practice the poo poo out of cr MP, st MP, LP sensha but I don't know the situations where I can actually try it without getting poo poo wrecked. Can I do it during footsies stuff? Jump in and cr MP? Against which characters? All this poo poo feels like stuff that gets worked out while playing hundreds of matches against people, which is fine. I just wish it would generally involve people I stand a vague chance against who are doing the same thing. Maybe that isn't possible anymore. Don't get too disencouraged, just set yourself small objectives that aren't outright winning and you'll see improvement. As for your doubt, that sort of thing is what you do when you closed the distance between you and an opponent. With Karin, you probably either knocked them down with a sweep, dashed in or landed a jump-in. 1 and 3 are probably what'll happen more often. Karin is a "footsies" character, so you shouldn't focus too much on landing a combo as much as you should on pestering adversaries with your amazing normals (sweep, st.HK, st.MK, even cr.MK). A lot of your damage will come from crush counter st.HK, so look into combos that start off that. St.MP starters are for after you're in their face, and you should be making them block those normals because they put Karin in an advantageous situation where a lot of your normals will come out before a lot of their normals.
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May 11, 2016 03:11
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NecroMonster posted:I ain't played since Continuum Shift, where even a simple combo out of ground throw with Ragna, contained a loving obnoxious pause. Has this gotten better over time? CP did a lot to fix general game feel and how combat flows and while that issue definitely persists with some characters, it's not anywhere near as much of a problem as it used to be.
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May 11, 2016 03:19
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