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Michael Scott posted:So many people on here manage to max their 401k and Roth IRA every year. I'm managing to squirrel away $12k a year scrimping a lot, prioritizing IRA over 401k, and that's trying really hard to save. If you're younger than 30, and especially if you're under 25, saving even that much will put you heads and shoulders above your peers. That said, if you work somewhere that gives you the option of having a 401k, you'll usually make enough of a salary to max it out every year, but obviously this is dependent on how much you make, what your non-optional expenses are, and how high a priority retirement is in your life.
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May 10, 2016 21:30
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There are a lot of factors to consider. My wife and I are "behind" on retirement savings at age 41, if you just look at how much money we have socked away and our age. However, we've prioritized several other factors - paying off student loans (should be done, finally, in about 14 to 16 months), buying a house (we bought at a good time and now have substantial equity that we didn't have to pay for, due to the market recovery), the fact we have no kids (our best earning years are the next 20, and we won't be forced to reduce our savings rate by having to pay for teenage kids and college tuition), and our plan to leave the high cost of living area we're in right now, when we retire (so we don't need to replicate our current COL in retirement). Your personal circumstances, your retirement plans, your career options and likely pay scale over time in your career, all affect the numbers. This is why it's very difficult to give anyone a specific number when they ask "am I saving enough?" or "how much more should I save?" Many old people survive entirely on social security. If you're willing to live in a small apartment in a very low cost of living part of the country, you can manage it. Nobody knows if that will still be true in 20, 30, or 40 years... so your retirement savings is really more of a risk mitigation factor, plus an investment in your comfort when you're old. The more you save, the more insulated you are against the risks of a more expensive future, and the more invested you are in being able to afford luxuries and comforts. Maybe you'll drop dead at the age of 65 and never benefit from any of it, though, so you have to weigh retirement savings vs. quality of life today. And it's not just a binary thing: my parents planned to do a lot of travel and adventure in their retirement, and saved money to afford it... but my dad has two new knees and my mom has a new hip and Parkinson's, and that's put the kibosh on a lot of their plans. Maybe they should have given up some of their financial security and done more travel during their working years...?
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May 10, 2016 21:39
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Thanks guys! This thread is great and the info is very encouraging.TwoSheds posted:If you're younger than 30, and especially if you're under 25, saving even that much will put you heads and shoulders above your peers. That said, if you work somewhere that gives you the option of having a 401k, you'll usually make enough of a salary to max it out every year, but obviously this is dependent on how much you make, what your non-optional expenses are, and how high a priority retirement is in your life. This is a good example of why I'm a huge fan of putting age and salaries into posts in this thread, it's very useful to gauge other numbers in play. In lots of areas of life it doesn't pay to compare yourself to others, in this one it does. In the U.S. for some reason it seems to be a bit of a taboo to talk about this stuff, which is frustrating when trying to gauge yourself and learn about career choices. Both 'real' jobs I've worked after college have had a 401k, and the two salaries respectively were $45k and $48k. I'm at $48k now at almost 24 years old. It feels very tough if not impossible to max the 401k. I'm a little lower in salary than I would prefer to be at 24, and lower than many of my peers. One decision I need to make is if I should get a Comp Sci master's (I have a non STEM bachelor's), but it would be $50-60k and 3.5 years part-time. Guinness posted:If you're above 15-20% to retirement you're in way better shape than most people. Sorry what do you mean by this? Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 21:55 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 21:45
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Michael Scott posted:Sorry what do you mean by this? Sorry that came out a little awkward. If you contribute more than 15-20% of your gross income to retirement you're doing far better than most people. If you're socking away 12k/yr on a 48k/yr gross salary you're doing quite well IMO -- especially at only 24. Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:52 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 21:47
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Guinness posted:If you're socking away 12k/yr on a 48k/yr gross salary you're doing quite well IMO -- especially at only 24. Great to hear. I want to work towards financial independence and a quasi-cushy lifestyle before traditional retirement age.
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May 10, 2016 21:57
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Michael Scott posted:One decision I need to make is if I should get a Comp Sci master's (I have a non STEM bachelor's), but it would be $50-60k and 3.5 years part-time.
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May 10, 2016 22:07
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:Get work to pay for it, otherwise don't do it. My company unfortunately does not have tuition reimbursement. They'll pay like $500 per year for certs haha. It's a small company so I've already spoken to my boss and she said it's a no-go. I guess I'll have to put it on the back-burner and learn programming languages on the side until I can move to a company that funds Masters' in maybe a year or two. Or not do the Master's at all. I was always taught that the world is such now where a bachelor's is basically not enough. Especially if I want to get hired at companies where I am competing with candidates that have Comp Sci bachelors'. Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 22:18 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 22:09
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Michael Scott posted:I was always taught that the world is such now where a bachelor's is basically not enough.
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May 10, 2016 22:12
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Michael Scott posted:Great to hear. I want to work towards financial independence and a quasi-cushy lifestyle before traditional retirement age. The good news there is that you're off to a great start! You should also consider taxable investments once you either increase your earnings or reduce your spending, if possible. Most early retirement blogs I've seen advocate some allocation of taxable assets in index funds, bond funds, and real estate funds, the exact percentages of which will depend on your risk tolerance. Vanguard is the go-to because of their low expense rates, but it's a little bit of a pain in the rear end saving up $10,000 to start buying shares in a fund.
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May 10, 2016 22:12
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:Not really true in the programming world for most modern shops. Some older companies might still have the "degree required" hurdle but for the most part if you just want to write C# tools and SQL queries all day, you don't need a degree. This is all more appropriate for the programming career advice thread, I suppose. Good to know. Yeah, unfortunately my discussions tend to shift away from the thread subject, but I think I consider it related. A career in programming seems like among other things a great path to FI. TwoSheds posted:The good news there is that you're off to a great start! You should also consider taxable investments once you either increase your earnings or reduce your spending, if possible. Most early retirement blogs I've seen advocate some allocation of taxable assets in index funds, bond funds, and real estate funds, the exact percentages of which will depend on your risk tolerance. Vanguard is the go-to because of their low expense rates, but it's a little bit of a pain in the rear end saving up $10,000 to start buying shares in a fund. Indeed. I started my IRA late and have about 50/50 in a taxable brokerage/Roth IRA. Every year I plan on liquidating $5500 of index funds in the brokerage and immediately transferring and rebuying in the Roth around 1/1. I've already maxed 2016. I'm in the process of moving everything over from Schwab to Vanguard so I can dump everything in VG's Target 2055 (VFFVX). Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 22:19 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 22:16
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TwoSheds posted:The good news there is that you're off to a great start! You should also consider taxable investments once you either increase your earnings or reduce your spending, if possible. Most early retirement blogs I've seen advocate some allocation of taxable assets in index funds, bond funds, and real estate funds, the exact percentages of which will depend on your risk tolerance. Vanguard is the go-to because of their low expense rates, but it's a little bit of a pain in the rear end saving up $10,000 to start buying shares in a fund. If you don't have the 10k, you can just buy ETFs.
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May 10, 2016 22:31
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Michael Scott posted:My company unfortunately does not have tuition reimbursement. They'll pay like $500 per year for certs haha. Will they put that $500/year towards continuing education, or education towards a cert? If so, snatch it up and take one course/semester at community college. I got my CCNA many moons ago via a "Regional Occupational Program" which was nearly free for high school students, and not much more for adults. It's free money on the table. You do not need a masters to work in a computer related field. Most businesses will say "Or equivalent experience" and will lean heavily on a practical discussion with you. Do side projects on Github, even if they seem like silly home automation things, or contribute to open source projects. Grab open bugs and commit them to your personal github then make the pull request from there. On topic: See if they would consider a SIMPLE plan? It does require money input on their side (either 2% across the board, or 1:1 match to 3% but only for participating employees.) https://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/simple.html
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May 10, 2016 22:32
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TwoSheds posted:The good news there is that you're off to a great start! You should also consider taxable investments once you either increase your earnings or reduce your spending, if possible. Most early retirement blogs I've seen advocate some allocation of taxable assets in index funds, bond funds, and real estate funds, the exact percentages of which will depend on your risk tolerance. Vanguard is the go-to because of their low expense rates, but it's a little bit of a pain in the rear end saving up $10,000 to start buying shares in a fund. There are low fee funds for $2,500 as well. Once you hit the $10,000 minimum you can roll it over. It is double the fee at 0.10% but that is still very low. FUSEX $2,500 @ 0.10% https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/fees-and-prices/315911206 FUSVX $10,000 @ 0.05% capped https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/fees-and-prices/315911701
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May 10, 2016 22:36
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H110Hawk posted:Will they put that $500/year towards continuing education, or education towards a cert? If so, snatch it up and take one course/semester at community college. I got my CCNA many moons ago via a "Regional Occupational Program" which was nearly free for high school students, and not much more for adults. It's free money on the table. The $500 can be for any education that relates to what we do at my company. I will certainly be taking advantage of the yearly allotment and finding the most cost-effective option. What you mentioned sounds great and I will be looking into it, thank you. As I learn new languages, I will absolutely be looking to bolster my Github with new projects. It's currently pretty bare. My company does have a 401k, so the SIMPLE doesn't seem applicable. I am currently not eligible for the 401k due to a lovely 6-month waiting period. When I become eligible their match is only like 2%. So, I'll be putting all savings into my brokerage for now, and liquidating as needed to fund the Roth. Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 22:49 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 22:45
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H110Hawk posted:There are low fee funds for $2,500 as well. Once you hit the $10,000 minimum you can roll it over. It is double the fee at 0.10% but that is still very low. Super Dan posted:If you don't have the 10k, you can just buy ETFs. Good to know! Now I just need to save up that much. Still better than waiting for $10,000 while the remainder sits in a savings account, though.
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May 11, 2016 00:25
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Michael Scott posted:My company does have a 401k, so the SIMPLE doesn't seem applicable. I am currently not eligible for the 401k due to a lovely 6-month waiting period. When I become eligible their match is only like 2%. Oh, I thought it didn't exist at all. 2% is still free money. If you are good at managing money, like trust yourself not to spend your rent good, you can save the money now for your 401k and set your withholding very high as soon as you qualify. For example, last year to "top up" my 401k and make sure I got my entire match I set my % withheld to be exactly the match-maximum (6%.) Then in December I set it to 100%, meaning I literally got no paycheck the first time, and a $100 one the second time. (My memory is foggy.) I drew down my savings in December to cover the 401k top-off then set it back to 6% the same day I got paid. I set annual calendar reminders for this. I would personally do it into a FDIC insured savings account given the stakes, but it's up to you if you want to put it into a taxable brokerage. Only play this game if it is with money you intended to deposit in your 401k to begin with, and you won't spend your savings and rent money just because it's there. Why do I do this instead of just max_dollars / pay_periods? We get 2 bonus payouts which are eligible for matching. If I maxed out in the first quarter, it was extra paperwork to try get the extra matching.
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May 11, 2016 01:08
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Leperflesh posted:...the fact we have no kids (our best earning years are the next 20, and we won't be forced to reduce our savings rate by having to pay for teenage kids and college tuition)...
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May 11, 2016 05:42
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H110Hawk posted:Oh, I thought it didn't exist at all. 2% is still free money. If you are good at managing money, like trust yourself not to spend your rent good, you can save the money now for your 401k and set your withholding very high as soon as you qualify. For example, last year to "top up" my 401k and make sure I got my entire match I set my % withheld to be exactly the match-maximum (6%.) Then in December I set it to 100%, meaning I literally got no paycheck the first time, and a $100 one the second time. (My memory is foggy.) I drew down my savings in December to cover the 401k top-off then set it back to 6% the same day I got paid. I set annual calendar reminders for this. I would personally do it into a FDIC insured savings account given the stakes, but it's up to you if you want to put it into a taxable brokerage. Sorry this is just really confusing to me. By setting the withholding super high for 2 months, aren't you maxing in the first quarter? If you did "max_dollars / pay_periods," wouldn't that equal less dollars in the first quarter?
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May 11, 2016 05:49
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Saint Fu posted:Pretty sure you have to wait 5 years after recharacterizing traditional 401k -> Roth IRA to withdraw without penalty. In my case I opened a Roth IRA with 1k when I was 22 or so, got a real job with a traditional 401k at 27, worked a year, became unemployed, recharacterized, then lived off of unemployment and roth ira withdrawals (totaling more than my 1k from long ago). I paid no penalties when I did my taxes, and I'm pretty sure I entered everything correctly into TurboTax and Tax Act (which both agreed).
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May 11, 2016 05:49
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ShadowHawk posted:I believe the rule may actually be "you must have had the Roth IRA open for 5 years, regardless of when you did the recharacterization" No, it's not that. There are two five year rules with Roth IRAs. The one you're thinking of is that you must be 59.5 or older and have had the Roth IRA open for five years to withdraw earnings without penalties or income tax. This one only applies to earnings within the Roth IRA and does not apply to any conversions at all (but does apply to earnings after the conversion). The other five year rule is that you need to wait five years after each taxable conversion to withdraw that conversion without a penalty. Traditional 401(k) to Roth IRA conversion is entirely taxable. One of the strategies to withdraw early from a 401(k) is the Roth IRA ladder, where you move money from the 401(k) or traditional IRA five years (really four because the year you do it in counts as year 1) before you withdraw it from the Roth IRA, incurring no penalties (but you do pay income tax at the time of the conversion). The second five year rule only applies to taxable conversions, so if you have non-taxable conversions - the majority of the contributions through the backdoor/mega backdoor, or part of a Roth 401(k) to Roth IRA conversion - then you can withdraw it immediately without penalty. Roth IRA withdrawal rules are confusing but ultimately work in your favour, more than any other retirement account anyway. e: From what I can tell you should have paid a 10% penalty on those withdrawals after the first $1000, some quick Googling says you should have gotten a 1099-R with a J (or Q) code. I'd check your records. It's possible you were given an incorrect 1099-R. e2: Conversions and recharacterizations are different things. I'm confident you meant conversion, though, because I'm certain it's impossible to recharacterize from a traditional 401(k) into a Roth IRA. Desuwa fucked around with this message at 06:26 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 06:12
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TwoSheds posted:The good news there is that you're off to a great start! You should also consider taxable investments once you either increase your earnings or reduce your spending, if possible. Most early retirement blogs I've seen advocate some allocation of taxable assets in index funds, bond funds, and real estate funds, the exact percentages of which will depend on your risk tolerance. Vanguard is the go-to because of their low expense rates, but it's a little bit of a pain in the rear end saving up $10,000 to start buying shares in a fund. Schwab will let you get in on a lot of their mutual funds for $100, with a $1 minimum contribution after that.
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May 11, 2016 06:24
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Desuwa posted:e: From what I can tell you should have paid a 10% penalty on those withdrawals after the first $1000, some quick Googling says you should have gotten a 1099-R with a J (or Q) code. quote:e2: Conversions and recharacterizations are different things. I'm confident you meant conversion, though, because I'm certain it's impossible to recharacterize from a traditional 401(k) into a Roth IRA.
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May 11, 2016 07:21
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ShadowHawk posted:It did indeed have a J code. J is the code for early withdrawals that may or may not be subject to penalties (https://ttlc.intuit.com/questions/1900306-are-roth-ira-distributions-taxable). Personally I'd go over my return that year pretty closely and maybe get some advice. I'm not a CPA or tax professional, but based on what I read in your posts it seems like you should have incurred penalties. Recharacterizing is when you made a contribution but then, that year, decide to change that contribution. If I made a Roth IRA contribution but later found out I was over the income limit I could recharacterize it into a traditional IRA contribution. A backdoor Roth is a conversion, not a recharacterization. The simplest scenario I can see is if you entered your traditional IRA -> Roth IRA conversion as a recharacterization/contribution instead of as a taxable conversion. If you did that the tax software would believe the entire withdrawal was from contributions, making it penalty free.
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May 11, 2016 08:49
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Michael Scott posted:So many people on here manage to max their 401k and Roth IRA every year. I'm managing to squirrel away $12k a year scrimping a lot, prioritizing IRA over 401k, and that's trying really hard to save. If you're not making six figures and you still have student loan debt, maxing both accounts will be hard, but it's a good goal to have if you can manage it. I only started really doing it this year, though I'd done pretty good the two years before this. Before that I was just putting 4-6% into my 401k. quote:Great to hear. I want to work towards financial independence and a quasi-cushy lifestyle before traditional retirement age. You should have no problem there, even if you don't get raises (you will), you'll probably have close to 100k for retirement at age 30, that'd be about 900k in inflation-adjusted dollars at age 60 with no more contributions, which is a nice start. If you can start to max by age 30, you should be set up for a very cushy retirement by 50. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 15:16 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 15:13
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where are y'all getting these numbers? are you just running compound interest calculations using the average market growth rate? doesn't that fail to account for how the returns would start tapering off when one (presumably) starts shifting from stocks to bonds as one approaches retirement age?
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May 11, 2016 15:45
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It's just a rough guess based on assets by average doubling every 8 years in retirement accounts, and inflation halving the value of currency about every 30 years, obviously this is going to vary widely. It's a very ballpark figure, which is all you can really do on a timeline that long. It's definitely not going to be exactly that, but you can't say for sure whether it's going to be higher or lower.
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May 11, 2016 15:51
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Yeah, I think it's a lot more useful to discuss the likely range of results, because it's usually pretty wide. A realistic simulation would account for the variability of returns depending on time period, as well as the effect of making periodic investments (as most people do) instead of a lump sum. I think portfoliovisualizer.com does a reasonable job at this - and at helping you realize that any single projection could easily be off by a factor of two.
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May 11, 2016 18:54
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slap me silly posted:portfoliovisualizer.com this is super useful -- thanks for the link.
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May 11, 2016 19:21
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Desuwa posted:J is the code for early withdrawals that may or may not be subject to penalties (https://ttlc.intuit.com/questions/1900306-are-roth-ira-distributions-taxable). Personally I'd go over my return that year pretty closely and maybe get some advice. I'm not a CPA or tax professional, but based on what I read in your posts it seems like you should have incurred penalties.
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May 11, 2016 20:00
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Rocks posted:there's a system in Canada where you can pull money out of your RRSP (the equivalent of a 401k) and not incur penalties as long as it's used for a house, and as long as it's paid back within 10 years. it's called the Home Buyers Plan. nothing like that in the USA right? So this post is a little outdated, but it was the first unread post I had, and I don't see that anyone has addressed it since then, so I will. There are a couple of possibilities for a 401k or similar retirement plan to have the same options as what you described in your post. 1) Hardship withdrawals. In this option, you take a distribution of funds from your retirement plan and never pay it back. You DO have to pay the extra 10% penalty tax on early withdrawals, as well as any regular income taxes on pre-tax funds withdrawn. Also you cannot then contribute anything to your plan for the next 6 months. Not all plans allow this for purchasing a home. 2) 401k loan In this option you borrow money from your own 401k and pay it back over a period of time. Standard timeframe for this is no more than 5 years, though I believe there are different rules specific to using this method for purchasing a home so that you may be able to pay it off over a longer timeframe. To be honest I don't know much of the details of either of those options, but there's a brief overview so you can go look up more specifics if you want.
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May 11, 2016 22:12
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Michael Scott posted:Sorry this is just really confusing to me. By setting the withholding super high for 2 months, aren't you maxing in the first quarter? If you did "max_dollars / pay_periods," wouldn't that equal less dollars in the first quarter? Low to start (match max @ 6%) then 100% at the end to top it off. Your low to start is 0% because you don't have one. But if you can afford it and are smart with money you can build a buffer in a savings account then set it very high and draw down the savings set aside for that purpose.
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May 12, 2016 00:00
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flowinprose posted:So this post is a little outdated, but it was the first unread post I had, and I don't see that anyone has addressed it since then, so I will. thanks this is actually really appreciated.
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May 12, 2016 02:51
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401(a) or 457(b)? I don't see any incentive to the 401(a) other than the simplicity of it and the ability to make loans against it. The 457(b) gives you flexibility if money is tight and it has the option of being pre-tax like a 401(a). My employer (government) is giving me a 90 day time limit to go with the 401(a) and once I set a % it can't be changed so I'd probably go with something small like 2.5%. I haven't got any clear answer as to why the 401(a) is a better deal. I think the 90 day limit thing is just to trick you into enrolling into the plan so they can milk you for 30 years or whatever.
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May 14, 2016 06:16
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Michael Scott posted:Sorry this is just really confusing to me. By setting the withholding super high for 2 months, aren't you maxing in the first quarter? If you did "max_dollars / pay_periods," wouldn't that equal less dollars in the first quarter? I'm not really sure what the quoted poster was doing, but it's possible to set your 401k withdrawal to a large percentage of a payroll deduction on a per check basis, so if you need to you can throw a ton in a non-taxable account at the end of the year. My wife and I usually do that so we can maximize retirement savings with the extra cash in our budget for the year. Just handle all the expenses, and then set payroll deductions to 50% or whatever your company allows you to max. I'm lucky enough to hit the max these days between my contributions and the match, but we usually have to game it with my wife's paychecks.
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May 15, 2016 10:39
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I am ridiculously confused by the rules for the "testing period" for an HSA - I am moving back to the US from abroad and will likely pick up a marketplace plan to tide me over while I search for a job. However, I enrolled my wife and my two kids in COBRA coverage. More expensive, but very good coverage. My marketplace plan would likely be eligible for an HSA...but I have no idea how long I remain unemployed and therefore needing that plan. It seems to me that based on the rules here: https://www.irs.gov/publications/p969/ar02.html#en_US_2015_publink1000204045 If I make the contributions I'm eligible to, but I change plans after 6 months instead of meeting the "testing period" of 12 months, not only are those excess contributions taxable but but they're subject to an extra 10% tax. Can I avoid this by making contributions month by month as I'm eligible instead of contributing the full amount per year?
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May 15, 2016 14:37
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flowinprose posted:So this post is a little outdated, but it was the first unread post I had, and I don't see that anyone has addressed it since then, so I will. It should be noted that if you lose your job while a 401k loan is open, the remaining balance immediately counts as a distribution subject to income tax + penalty.
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May 15, 2016 14:51
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My new 401k has the super special Vanguard retirement funds with 0.05% ER and up to 9k/yr matching. 
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May 15, 2016 15:58
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shame on an IGA posted:It should be noted that if you lose your job while a 401k loan is open, the remaining balance immediately counts as a distribution subject to income tax + penalty. This is not true, you have two months from departure date to repay the loan. After that, what you said applies.
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May 15, 2016 16:30
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I'm recently married and since we are going to be merging finances, we've been taking stock of our financial situation. We're both professionals in our early 30s grossing in the mid-70s each. We own our home and have a mortgage, but no other debt. The two main things I'm looking at right now are retirement and general investments. I made some elections when I started working for my employer and made substantially less than I do now, and unfortunately never looked back at them until now, so I have just made an uncomfortable realization. The good news: I work for the government and have a pension. The bad news: I apparently did not opt into the other retirement option, which because of my public employer is a 403(b) (or a 457(b) if I prefer) instead of a 401(k). The ugly news: My employer does not do any kind of contribution matching to those accounts. On the retirement end, I am basically looking for two broad categories of answers: 1. I am aware that not using a tax-advantaged retirement account until now is a gently caress-up, but I would like to know approximately how big a gently caress-up this is at my age, and 2. How should I best recover from it (IRA? Roth IRA? Opt into one of the employer plans despite no match? etc.)? Happily neither of us lives extravagantly and we live comfortably within one of our salaries. We have a good amount of money on hand, and my wife does have retirement accounts to which she's been contributing. General investment-wise, we have some investments in index funds via Schwab. Neither of us really has a clue about investing and I have no idea if it makes sense to plow more money into those, or into similar funds through other companies, or some other strategy, nor how much to invest vs keep as cash on hand. We do not need investment returns to live on and would cheerfully plop money in and ignore it until retirement, but we are both risk-averse as we have little idea what we're doing. I am also wondering if we should just be working with a financial advisor just so we don't have to deal with any of this ourselves, although I understand that this is not a sound move in raw dollar terms.
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May 17, 2016 02:22
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"How big a gently caress-up this is at my age" - completely irrelevant and unimportant, because you can't do anything to change past choices. So let this worry go. What to do now is a great question, though. Unless you have specific goals that you need money for before age 60ish (do you? House, car, kids?) you should start shoving money into some tax-advantaged retirement accounts. Your 403b/457b option is a good choice IF you have some good fund options - what's available? Traditional or Roth IRA is always a good option. Two critical questions for money that's going into savings or investments: When will you want it? How much of a loss can you deal with when you take it back out again?
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May 17, 2016 03:11
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