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Chichevache posted:Athens was always an oligarchy. Fair enough, I imagine any democracy will in truth be led by a small group of influential people even if everyone has a vote.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:25
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FAUXTON posted:everyone has a vote. And "everyone" in Athens meant free men who owned land.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:31
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Alhazred posted:And "everyone" in Athens meant free men who owned land. Yeah, and even if everyone in the actual everyone sense had a vote there would still be people with enough influence to control the will of the voters at a macroscopic level.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:44
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FAUXTON posted:Oh I'm sure stoneworks which got blown up with dynamite and then bulldozed can just be swapped back into place. You're missing the point, but okay.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:13
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Patter Song posted:Probus. Yeah, but he and Aurelian apparently had the same shortcoming: really good at alienating the people around them. That doesn't mean they deserved to die or be overthrown, and Rome would have probably been way better off had either of them stayed in power. But there's a good lesson to learn from their downfalls: don't yell too loudly at the guys around you who have pointy swords. e: Vavrek posted:I remember clearly a point made by a friend in a political philosophy class we had years ago. That day, the class's topic was censorship, and we were going over detailed reasons for and against it. The professor, I think, put forward the idea that you could think of censorship of intellectual studies as not causing lasting, permanent harm, because information which was one day suppressed could always be (re)discovered later, in a more permissive time. (An awful example, off the top of my head, would be the Nazi's rejection of "Jewish Physics". Assuming, for the moment, that there was any actual good to antisemitic censorship, you'd get that benefit, and could discover relativity later.) Not a strong argument in favor of the practice, just a claim that its harms might not be as great as they're made out to be. That's more it, IMO. There's so, so much to be learned from those ruins, and from other ancient sites that nihilistic shitlords like ISIS are destroying. It's also a really lovely way to treat an entire civilization's memory - this is what they valued. This is what was most important to them. Those are things that should be preserved, just as we hope that the things we consider to be the best of us will be preserved by future generations. As much as I think Aurelian was an awesome badass who deserves to be remembered as one of the best Roman Emperors, destroying Palmyra wasn't a very nice thing to do. It's even less nice that ISIS is destroying the ruins, when there's no Zenobia to attack them. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 20:29
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I guess future archaeologists will be able to learn a lot about the pre-apocalypse years from the mass grave sites they're creating.
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Apr 27, 2016 00:29
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Majorian posted:Yeah, but he and Aurelian apparently had the same shortcoming: really good at alienating the people around them. That doesn't mean they deserved to die or be overthrown, and Rome would have probably been way better off had either of them stayed in power. But there's a good lesson to learn from their downfalls: don't yell too loudly at the guys around you who have pointy swords. Cassius Dio posted:But Laetus, seizing upon the case of Falco as a handle, proceeded to put out of the way many of the soldiers, pretending that it was by the emperor's orders. The others, when they became aware of it, feared that they, too, should perish, and made a disturbance; but two hundred, bolder than their fellows, actually invaded the palace with drawn swords. Pertinax had no warning of their approach until they were already up on the hill; then his wife rushed in and informed him of what had happened. On learning this he behaved in a manner that one will call noble, or senseless, or whatever one pleases. For, even though he could in all probability have killed his assailants, — as he had in the night-guard and the cavalry at hand to protect him, and as there were also many people in the palace at the time, — or might at least have concealed himself and made his escape to some place or other, by closing the gates of the palace and the other intervening doors, he nevertheless adopted neither of these courses. Instead, hoping to overawe them by his appearance and to win them over by his words, he went to meet the approaching band, which was already inside the palace; for no one of their fellow-soldiers had barred the way, and the porters and other freedmen, so far from making any door fast, had actually opened absolutely all the entrances. 10 The soldiers on seeing him were at first abashed, all save one, and kept their eyes on the ground, and they thrust their swords back into their scabbards; but that one man leaped forward, exclaiming, "The soldiers have sent you this sword," and forthwith fell upon him and wounded him. Than his comrades no longer held back, but struck down their emperor together with Eclectus. The latter alone had not deserted him, but defended him as best he could, even wounding several of his assailants; hence I, who felt that even before that he had shown himself an excellent man, now thoroughly admired him. The soldiers cut off the head of Pertinax and fastened it on a spear, glorying in the deed. Thus did Pertinax, who undertook to restore everything in a moment, come to his end. He failed to comprehend, though a man of wide practical experience, that one cannot with safety reform everything at once, and that the restoration of a state, in particular, requires both time and wisdom.
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Apr 27, 2016 18:43
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Hey there guys, I don't suppose anyone has any good ideas for cool books on mythology and ancient history that aren't full of "woo"? Asking as its my birthday coming up and I'd like some cool books.
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Apr 27, 2016 19:59
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Alhazred posted:And "everyone" in Athens meant free men who owned land. It's also notable that Athens didn't stand on its own as a city. It ruled over the rest of the Delean League in a decidedly undemocratic fashion.
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Apr 27, 2016 23:50
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So how much do we know about the ancient Celts? Specifically the Insular Celts in the British Isles. Was Wales really the center of a Druidic religion that extended into mainland Europe? Were they all basically herded into modern-day Wales and Cornwall by the coming of the Anglo-Saxons? How similar was their culture to the Scandinavians(a lot of the art I've seen looks very similar, but that isn't much of a link)?Just how closely related are the Welsh, Irish, and Scottish culturally?
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Apr 28, 2016 23:32
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Canemacar posted:So how much do we know about the ancient Celts? Specifically the Insular Celts in the British Isles. Was Wales really the center of a Druidic religion that extended into mainland Europe? Were they all basically herded into modern-day Wales and Cornwall by the coming of the Anglo-Saxons? How similar was their culture to the Scandinavians(a lot of the art I've seen looks very similar, but that isn't much of a link)?Just how closely related are the Welsh, Irish, and Scottish culturally?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0054894
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Apr 28, 2016 23:52
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"I got a great idea guys, let's bury this loot we just stole and come back for it in a couple of years when the heat has died down. It's the perfect crime and we'll live the rest of our lives rich once all this so-called Imperial Crisis settles down, which I'm sure won't send any of us to an early grave!" At least that's what I'm assuming happened. 
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Apr 29, 2016 02:36
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That's usually exactly what happened with these kinds of hoards. Some smaller ones are just personal savings kept at the Bank of My Shovel. The caption says BC but they're in Spain so I assume that's a typo. AD makes sense.
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Apr 29, 2016 02:46
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The coins were brand new though, sounds more like a rich guy's stash. Not sure how he died though.
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Apr 29, 2016 02:48
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Yeah I saw it said BC but that didn't really make any sense to me so I assumed it was a typo. Maybe one day we'll find the gold of Tolosa and it'll clear Caepio of any wrongdoing.... in that particular instance, which would still leave him a loving disgrace to all good Romans 
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Apr 29, 2016 02:52
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Phobophilia posted:The coins were brand new though, sounds more like a rich guy's stash. Not sure how he died though. He died secretly wealthy.
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Apr 29, 2016 02:58
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Should be able to read that one coin to put a firm limit on its age but I can't make out the name. Latin alphabet with a laurel crown guy so definitely Roman though. Rome had colonies and vassals in Spain in the BCs or how else would Scipio Africanus have cut his teeth?
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Apr 29, 2016 03:09
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Arglebargle III posted:Should be able to read that one coin to put a firm limit on its age but I can't make out the name. Latin alphabet with a laurel crown guy so definitely Roman though. Rome had colonies and vassals in Spain in the BCs or how else would Scipio Africanus have cut his teeth? Third or fourth century B.C.E. would be a bit early, back then Spain wasn't even Carthaginian yet. I can't tell who it is either.
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Apr 29, 2016 03:21
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According to this article they're Maximian and Constantine's inscriptions on the coins.
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Apr 29, 2016 03:34
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What is an error of 500 years compared to the glory of the Eternal City 
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Apr 29, 2016 03:42
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The Guardian says Constantine and Maximian are stamped on the coins. Dude probably put BC when he meant AD. E: beaten like Maximian FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 04:06
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cheerfullydrab posted:Someone who did exactly that last thing, literally: Pertinax. This doesn't even end with the Western Roman Empire. Take Autokrator/Imperator Flavius Mauricius Tiberius Augustus Dr. Charles William Previté-Orton posted:His fault was too much faith in his own excellent judgment without regard to the disagreement and unpopularity which he provoked by decisions in themselves right and wise. He was a better judge of policy than of men. [...] So after resounding successes he came to his fall - one of the worst disasters of the Empire. Turns out that sending the army outside of the country to save on room and board isn't that popular with the soldiers.
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Apr 29, 2016 05:43
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Jerusalem posted:According to this article they're Maximian and Constantine's inscriptions on the coins. Welp
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Apr 29, 2016 06:33
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It could be a time traveling Constantine E: I know I've mentioned it before but the furthest outside the Roman Empire that stashes of Roman coins have turned up is Vietnam. I don't believe any have been found in China outside of the far west. Japan is the furthest that Roman manufactured goods have been found. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 06:36
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Grand Fromage posted:It could be a time traveling Constantine When we make contact with the aliens from Alpha Centauri, Roman shits probably going to turn up over there too.
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Apr 30, 2016 05:04
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Grand Fromage posted:E: I know I've mentioned it before but the furthest outside the Roman Empire that stashes of Roman coins have turned up is Vietnam. I don't believe any have been found in China outside of the far west. Have any been found being passed around in Africa?
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May 5, 2016 03:25
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HalPhilipWalker posted:Have any been found being passed around in Africa? Yep! I don't know of anything in west or central Africa, but all down the east coast was in the classical trade world. Romans were kicking around at least as far as Zanzibar, and probably further.
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May 5, 2016 03:35
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It's gonna be a real contest to see which star-faring species is dominant once we discover light-speed travel, if they're Romans or Vikings.
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May 5, 2016 03:39
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Thump! posted:It's gonna be a real contest to see which star-faring species is dominant once we discover light-speed travel, if they're Romans or Vikings. Pretty sure the Bolivians traveled there first with their Atlantis-tech. Isn't that why the Pope made rats fish, so that sailors wouldn't need to figure out whether or not it is a Friday in the warp zone?
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May 5, 2016 05:51
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Thump! posted:It's gonna be a real contest to see which star-faring species is dominant once we discover light-speed travel, if they're Romans or Vikings. 
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May 5, 2016 13:28
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Chichevache posted:Pretty sure the Bolivians traveled there first with their Atlantis-tech. Isn't that why the Pope made rats fish, so that sailors wouldn't need to figure out whether or not it is a Friday in the warp zone? I love this out of context.
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May 5, 2016 16:30
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Grand Fromage posted:That's usually exactly what happened with these kinds of hoards. Some smaller ones are just personal savings kept at the Bank of My Shovel. Probably a typo. Spanish uses AC and DC rather than BC and AD, it would be easy to confuse.
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May 5, 2016 17:16
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What was Mark Antony like? A romantic and passionate guy or a complete idiot and lout? I was looking for some history on him but, much like when I was looking at reading up on Alexander, it seems history is divided into haters and fanboys. Alexander was either a lucky brat and megalomaniac or the greatest thing ever. I find the same thing when looking up stuff about Antony. The one book I was really interested in, by some fellow named Goldsworthy but the reviews and excerpts I've seen seem to paint him as a "Antony was just kind of a jerk with no real skill" camp. Maybe that's true but how can I know it's true. I can't find anything that isn't biased as all hell. It's kind why I hate history, in spite of loving history.
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May 11, 2016 21:46
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NikkolasKing posted:What was Mark Antony like? A romantic and passionate guy or a complete idiot and lout? Anthony is generally seen as an rear end in a top hat but at the same time a competent politician and good general
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May 11, 2016 21:53
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Haughty trust fund brat.
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May 11, 2016 22:43
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Marc Antony was an extremely ambitious and shrewd guy who got spermjacked by Cleopatra and killed himself, if Rome the television series is anything to go by.
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May 11, 2016 23:07
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Thump! posted:Marc Antony was an extremely ambitious and shrewd guy who got spermjacked by Cleopatra and killed himself, if Rome the television series is anything to go by. I was thinking more of the Shakespeare play. I haven't seen the HBO series. But as one might expect, such dramatizations aren't always accurate so I was wondering how the man lived up to the myth. The myths are always cooler though. I might as well stick with that. People can agree on the myth, after all. Historical facts on the other hand seem dicey at best. Augustus did his best to prove "history is written by the victors." This seemed interesting and well-researched http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=Mark_Antony_-_The_Man_and_the_Myth
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May 11, 2016 23:12
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NikkolasKing posted:I haven't seen the HBO series. You need to fix this.
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May 11, 2016 23:23
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NikkolasKing posted:What was Mark Antony like? A romantic and passionate guy or a complete idiot and lout? I don't think you're going to find many Antony boosters, considering many people in his time whose writings survive either hated him personally or the forces that he represented. Plutarch's Lives, which was written several generations later and generally provides examples of heroic figures, uses Antony as the prime example of how not to be a good Roman. (That might be bias, or he might really have been such an enormous shithead that there's just nothing good to say.) I don't think "no skill" is fair, though, since it's known that Caesar made him the commander of an entire wing of his army and then his Master of Horse, which was the second-in-command for a dictator. So I doubt he was incompetent.
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May 12, 2016 02:14
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IIRC, he didn't spend his time as co-ruler loving around with Cleo, he actually spent a fair amount of time reorganizing the byzantine patchwork of colonies and client states that represented the eastern half of the empire into something more manageable. He also fought off a Parthian invasion, launched a counter-invasion, and managed to retreat without losing his entire army. Unfortunately, this weakened him in the eyes of Octavian...
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May 12, 2016 02:34
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