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occamsnailfile posted:I always notice how 'libertarian' arguments are completely in favor of companies working for their own interests, but when labor agitates for its own interests, they're "entitled" and "lazy" and probably millenials who don't know the value of an hour/dollar or whatever. This guy exemplifies a lot of similar attitudes about how developers should feel honored to drop 80+ hours a week in videogames "because they are art not a job" and they shouldn't complain about the hours or being underpaid because again art! Didn't he mention games are art?! Stop being such a spoiled whiner! The best part about that rant is that his Daughter tore into him because he spends a lot of time blaming women for playing the victim card and that the Glass Ceiling is entirely of their own construction.
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May 9, 2016 15:55
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If people want clean, art-free layouts, their solution is going to be in EPUB, not in anti-deluxe book versions.
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May 9, 2016 15:59
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Terrible Opinions posted:For supplement heavy lines like D&D, WoD, GURPS, etc I can very much see the value in allowing your customers to read the books before purchasing them. Particularly in crunch heavy systems that require a bit of referencing. I think its also really smart when you're doing new game editions. Pretty much all my onyx path anniversary editions/2nd edition WoD stuff I bought after reading excerpts or drafts and feeling like I was getting things my existing library didn't cover. I think that backlog thing is important. I don't doubt there are plenty of vocal stingy nerds out there, but there's also just a glut of gaming pdfs out there from established lines to compete for gamer dollars inside the industry. 60-70 bucks can get a bunch of games or supplements from ones you have but never got around to. There'll always be the crowd who want the newest thing, but the ability to try out 3-6 older games that you hadn't before for the same price is pretty compelling. Its basically the video game model all over, with all the mess that entails.
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May 9, 2016 17:12
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GimmickMan posted:I disagree. RPG books are generally terribly organized but a well done book would be fine in pure text form. Visual cues are fine but not necessary, that's what ToCs/Indexes/memory are for. I honestly would prefer to have a stripped down text-only version of the games I play with any frequency, but that's obviously going to sell a lot less because people like having pretty things so it is not a good move to make anyway. Memory is greatly aided by those visual cues.
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May 9, 2016 17:24
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LatwPIAT posted:Memory is greatly aided by those visual cues. Yup. One of the reasons I really like how Head First produces their teaching texts.
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May 9, 2016 17:32
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moths posted:That mentally probably grows from when a DM does "work" preparing a game for free. They're extrapolating their unpaid effort to what a designer does, when in reallity running a game/campaign is how they choose to consume and enjoy the product. Heck, I still remember creating my own character sheets in MS Word for Shadowrun and D&D back in high school because none of the ones I could find laid anything out in a useful manner. As people have mentioned though, the answer to the above isn't less money spent on tech writing/editing.
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May 9, 2016 18:54
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The market for RPG adventures reminds me a little of the market for teachers' lesson plans. Good ones save a teacher a good amount of time and should probably be priced accordingly, but there are a lot of bad ones, because anyone can make them and put them online. And they do.
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May 9, 2016 19:49
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ImpactVector posted:I can actually see a bit where this mindset could have originated though, because even now the GM often ends up having to play designer (picking and choosing what rules modules to use, on the fly errata, fixing broken games) and distributor (copying relevant sections into cheat sheets for their group), among others. You also have things like the people in charge of 5e D&D answering rules questions with "Ask Your DM."
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May 9, 2016 20:45
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clockworkjoe posted:http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3410-Why-We-Need-To-Pay-What-Games-Are-Worth-Not-What-We-Think-They-Should-Cost The best thing about the comments is how many of them go "Oh, so you think I'm a cheapskate, eh?!" and then immediately prove the article correct that, uh, yeah, you're a massive one. They're also utterly unsurprising because ENWorld is pretty much made up of people in their 40's and 50's with a very definitive right wing swing.
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May 9, 2016 21:45
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ProfessorCirno posted:They're also utterly unsurprising because ENWorld is pretty much made up of people in their 40's and 50's with a very definitive right wing swing. (I love how Morrus himself tells Celebrim that he's being needlessly hostile and that if he doesn't like the topic he can leave, but doesn't do anything to actually make him stop or punish him for continuing to poo poo up the comments.) (Also bonus points for one person in the comments actually making a "why do we have to have these political discussions?" whine.)
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May 9, 2016 21:57
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ProfessorCirno posted:The best thing about the comments is how many of them go "Oh, so you think I'm a cheapskate, eh?!" and then immediately prove the article correct that, uh, yeah, you're a massive one.
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May 9, 2016 22:03
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FMguru posted:One of my very favorite subspecies of nerds is the guy who brags about how little money he spends, how hard he bargains for things, how he never buys anything unless it's on sale or at a massive discount, and how utterly unashamed he is about using Barnes & Noble as a lending library and sees nothing wrong with torrenting movies/books/comics/games/etc...and who is also really really angry because no one ever seems to make the things he wants. That was the kind of guy I was talking about, he took it one step further though and actually made death threats against the line devs for not slavishly adhering to his vision and celebrating when 90% of the staff got laid off (Since that was obviously validation of his own personal viewpoint, if they had just made "Book exactly like I wanted" they would have made a million billion trillion dollars)
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May 9, 2016 22:11
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Asimo posted:I love the "oh I would totally love a plaintext file instead!" arguments because they are so transparently bullshit. A proper layout and art are actually pretty critical to RPGs, since they help break up the text and make it easier to remember where various sections of the text are in the book. It's the same reason good textbooks have chapter illustrations, tables, and other visual cues. Someone who claims they would prefer going without is like, the perfect example of someone who has no idea of what they actually want in a product. Also it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to printed books. The reason books, comics, RPGs have increased in price as much as they have is because the basic costs of ink, paper, etc. have boomed. Like even if comics went back to being printed on newspaper it wouldn't lower the price much. Black and white maybe, but even then, you may as well go for color and glossy paper so the buyer thinks they're getting value for money. Obviously this doesn't apply to ebooks, but like you said, layout and editing are kinda important.
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May 10, 2016 00:54
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I don't think there's as much complexity behind the stupid ideas these people have about the price of RPGs. They just "feel" a certain price-point is acceptable, without any real thought of how much work it takes to make a book, regardless of all the nuance that goes into whether a book is good or bad or made to be minimally expensive or whatever.moths posted:I don't think this had been a thing since the 2e AD&D Monsters Compendium, but I feel like Trinity had a weird binding. Rolemaster Standard System had three-hole-punched books with perforated pages. Apparently the idea was that you could make a master binder containing only the rules options you wanted to use, excluding all the rest, but a) very few people want to do that to their books, and b) people who play RMSS are the types that will cram all those optional, sometimes mutually exclusive rules into a single game.
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May 10, 2016 06:27
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That Old Tree posted:Rolemaster Standard System had three-hole-punched books with perforated pages. Apparently the idea was that you could make a master binder containing only the rules options you wanted to use, excluding all the rest, but a) very few people want to do that to their books, and b) people who play RMSS are the types that will cram all those optional, sometimes mutually exclusive rules into a single game. One of the problems with Rolemaster's Companion supplements was that they kept adding more and more skills, but they never increased development points, such that you now couldn't weave baskets without the basket-weaving skill, but you also couldn't afford to get those skills, either (and then they introduced even more houserules to try to give you synergy bonuses or secondary-skill-only development points). I feel like Pathfinder might be headed into such territory (if it already isn't in it), especially with Ultimate Intrigue making things like "lie twice in a row" and "let alcohol stabilize you" and "plant a small object in a creature's pocket" into feats that you need to take.
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May 10, 2016 11:25
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That Old Tree posted:I don't think there's as much complexity behind the stupid ideas these people have about the price of RPGs. They just "feel" a certain price-point is acceptable, without any real thought of how much work it takes to make a book, regardless of all the nuance that goes into whether a book is good or bad or made to be minimally expensive or whatever. It doesn't help that there's a ton of geek-centered entertainment these days, and most of it has benefited much more by changes in tech and business than print media has. Back in the 80s, a new NES game would cost 2x-ish a regularly priced game book. Now they're roughly even for AAA games. Buying movies went down pretty quick over the 80s and 90s, but could be 80-100 bucks early on; now they're 1/4 to 1/3 the price of a game book. Music, TV services, etc. etc. all are still pretty cheap and plentiful relative to game books. Add in that books are seen as "old tech", and its not surprising the casual prospective customer doesn't grasp why books haven't gotten as cheap as a lot of their other interests.
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May 10, 2016 16:06
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That Old Tree posted:Rolemaster Standard System had three-hole-punched books with perforated pages. Apparently the idea was that you could make a master binder containing only the rules options you wanted to use, excluding all the rest, but a) very few people want to do that to their books, and b) people who play RMSS are the types that will cram all those optional, sometimes mutually exclusive rules into a single game. e.g. For both players and GMs. Imagine being able to take all the pages from all the sourcebooks you needed for your class/tree and specifically organizing it for your character. You could always do this electronically, but I imagine for a lot of people like myself, they enjoy the ability to look things up on a physical medium. I usually prefer it since the only thing electronic versions have is easier specific navigation, but I've always found it clunkier to use than thumbing through my own handwritten+paper copy notes. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 16:40 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 16:35
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Desiden posted:It doesn't help that there's a ton of geek-centered entertainment these days, and most of it has benefited much more by changes in tech and business than print media has. Back in the 80s, a new NES game would cost 2x-ish a regularly priced game book. Now they're roughly even for AAA games. Buying movies went down pretty quick over the 80s and 90s, but could be 80-100 bucks early on; now they're 1/4 to 1/3 the price of a game book. Music, TV services, etc. etc. all are still pretty cheap and plentiful relative to game books. Add in that books are seen as "old tech", and its not surprising the casual prospective customer doesn't grasp why books haven't gotten as cheap as a lot of their other interests. Funny enough this is actually a very similar problem in the games industry. Game prices have largely stagnated, which is something major companies can typically - though not always - afford to handle, but smaller companies usually can't. Video games absolutely should cost more in general given production costs most of the time, but you'd have consumer riots on your hands if they tried.
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May 10, 2016 22:00
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As a graybearded grognard I can confidently assert that most people don't really understand how inflation works. I have plenty of RPG books from the eighties that cost $30-$40 in 1989 dollars or whatever. The fact that you can still buy an RPG book for $40 suggests they've actually fallen dramatically in price, once you adjust for inflation... but people have a very hard time mentally adjusting for 30 years of inflation. $35 in 1988 is the same buying power as $70.45 in 2016.
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May 10, 2016 22:09
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I remember SNES carts used to be $80 or so, and that's in 1990 dollars so that's about $145 in today's money. The fact that you can get last year's best game (with all the DLC) for $10 at a Steam Sale is just amazing Leperflesh posted:As a graybearded grognard I can confidently assert that most people don't really understand how inflation works. I have plenty of RPG books from the eighties that cost $30-$40 in 1989 dollars or whatever. The fact that you can still buy an RPG book for $40 suggests they've actually fallen dramatically in price, once you adjust for inflation... but people have a very hard time mentally adjusting for 30 years of inflation. quote:The price of the new Runequest books adds to the same reason I have skipped on the remakes of Paranoia and Warhammer Fantasy.
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May 10, 2016 22:25
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Leperflesh posted:As a graybearded grognard I can confidently assert that most people don't really understand how inflation works. I have plenty of RPG books from the eighties that cost $30-$40 in 1989 dollars or whatever. The fact that you can still buy an RPG book for $40 suggests they've actually fallen dramatically in price, once you adjust for inflation... but people have a very hard time mentally adjusting for 30 years of inflation. Wages haven't really kept pace with inflation either, have they? I'm not an economist or anything, but that's what I've always read (from progressive sources, at least). The guy literally trying to say "inflation doesn't exist" in FMguru's quote is obviously full of poo poo, but that doesn't mean that inflation has lifted all the proverbial boats equally. It might well not be the publishers' fault that consumers generally are less and less likely to have the amount of money necessary to comfortably buy things at a "fair" price, but it sure as poo poo isn't the fault of said consumers, again generally speaking.
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May 11, 2016 00:12
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FMguru posted:Here's one of my favorite quotes from grognards.txt He's not wrong that you can buy an RPG for about twenty-to-thirty bucks and get practical use out of it for years. I know we laugh at people who only play one game ever for decades, but the fact of the matter is you can run a campaign for multiple years off a single RPG book. It's always been a problem, and is pretty much why the supplement treadmill was such a problem for years.
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May 11, 2016 00:21
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JerryLee posted:Wages haven't really kept pace with inflation either, have they? I'm not an economist or anything, but that's what I've always read (from progressive sources, at least). The guy literally trying to say "inflation doesn't exist" in FMguru's quote is obviously full of poo poo, but that doesn't mean that inflation has lifted all the proverbial boats equally. They haven't, productivity has gone up immensely over the last 20 years but wages haven't gone up to match for the average worker.
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May 11, 2016 13:25
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JerryLee posted:Wages haven't really kept pace with inflation either, have they? I'm not an economist or anything, but that's what I've always read (from progressive sources, at least). The guy literally trying to say "inflation doesn't exist" in FMguru's quote is obviously full of poo poo, but that doesn't mean that inflation has lifted all the proverbial boats equally. They haven't. It's one of the basic graphs you're shown and expected to learn in an intermediate macro class, after reviewing logs. Depending on the prof's whim, you get more or less into labor econ. But that's a neat class and subject on its own. Oh lol: RocknRollaAyatollah posted:They haven't, productivity has gone up immensely over the last 20 years but wages haven't gone up to match for the average worker. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 15:39 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 15:36
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Sure, wages haven't kept pace with inflation, but that in no way invalidates an analysis of pricing. You can say, well, a lower percentage of consumers can "afford" a luxury item at a given price, but that's partially how prices are set: it's very likely that the reason RPG books are generally cheaper than they were in the 1980s and even the 90s is due to a change in the supply/demand equation. We've already discussed rising supply (in part due to a willingness of suppliers to work for free), but the drop in demand (often bandied about in this thread on very shaky/vague premises like 'people just aren't playing RPGs much any more') may also be affected by falling luxury budgets for the middle class. But then you go and look at SUVs sold per year and hey, guess what: despite falling real wages, Americans still spend vast quantities of money on stupid bullshit they don't need, and as a general rule, cheap luxuries like fast food, low-end entertainment products, tickets to entertainment events, etc. are pretty inelastic. Meaning, they don't decline in lockstep with the economy. Many of them actually sell better during economic downturns... the theory goes that when people are feeling depressed about their economic situation and pessimistic about the economic future, they turn to affordable comforts like mcdonalds and football games as distractions. In any case, none of that stuff affects the basic truth of inflation: dollars are worth less now than they were then, but RPG books and supplements have generally only barely kept up with inflation, despite generally being much higher quality publications. That means they're as cheap or cheaper, period. And that runs directly against some various handwavey posts I've seen recently about how publishing has gotten more expensive or something. Actually (especially color) publishing is much cheaper than it used to be. Computerization of processes that used to be done manually is a big part of it. Machines that can do full-color printing for far less per page than in 1980 or even 1990, far better print-on-demand and just-in-time-delivery streamlining of supply chains, far better tools for automating and streamlining page layout, standardization of formats, etc. etc. On a real money basis, publishing 2000 copies of a full color book has never been cheaper, and we can see that factor directly reflected in the lower prices of RPG books, once you do the completely necessary step of adjusting for inflation. I was curious and decided I wanted actual original advertised prices. Just grabbed a random old magazine off my shelves: All adjustments based on the CPI inflation calculator at http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl My copy of Fantasy Gamer #1 (August/September 1983) includes MSRPs for a number of supplements: "Against the cult of the reptile God/N1", an adventure for character levels 1-3, TSR, 28 pages: $5.50. 2016 moneys: $13.15 "Blizzard Pass", by David Cook, 32 page module for basic D&D: $8. 2016 moneys: $19.13 "Questworld", 9 Gateway Adventures for RuneQuest: 4018-X (boxed adventure set): $15. 2016 moneys: $35.86 The Palladium Role-Playing Game, 248 pages, including 20-page The Dread Tombs of Gersidi: $19.95. 2016 moneys: $47.70. All of these were black & white manually typeset publications. I believe only the Palladium game was hardbound. Those seem like appropriate modern prices for most of those things, once you consider the quality, but maybe $13 for a black and white 28 page adventure module is actually pretty cheap?
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May 11, 2016 20:56
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I don't think Palladium did a hardbound book until '95 with the hardbound "collector's edition" of Rifts. In fact, their prices have stubbornly ignored inflation. The original Rifts RPG from 1990 ran for $25 for a 256 page softcover game with color inserts, and Rifts Northern Gun 2 from 2014 runs $23 for a 256 page softcover supplement. Palladium isn't a good yardstick- they're a bit mad. Granted, most of their hardbacks these days do run about $40-$50, but most of those are sold as special editions of some preexisting book.
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May 11, 2016 21:30
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All of this discussion is kind of moot since there's been a revolution in printing and self publishing. With POD and online marketplaces existing, average people can make a quality product. This brings down prices due to production costs going way down and competition going up, bringing down prices. Kickstarter has also drastically changed pricing models too. POD has pretty much ended the great killer of RPG companies too, being hit by the unsold back stock of games all at once isn't really something that happens anymore to my knowledge to most companies. None of this applies to Palladium though because Kevin Siembieda is probably taking all that poser art and making mock ups with it in his wax machine. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 15:48 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 11:59
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:None of this applies to Palladium though because Kevin Siembieda is probably taking all that poser art and making mock ups with it in his wax machine. Using all the money he stole from Robotech RPG Tactics backers
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May 12, 2016 13:50
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Re RPG pricing: It's always been weird to me how people also flip out over games being divided into multiple books. Like D&D, AD&D, 1st even--you needed the PHB, DMG AND MM to play. Sixty bucks. Pathfinder sells for $50 and you still need the bestiary. They say only the GM needs it, but like most players won't want the inside edge on enemy powers. Plus, monster manuals are great bathroom reading. I love the things myself! But nWoD publishing a unified rules book and then devoting the big fat splat books to the big fat splats, OMG. Too expensive! Complete money grab! I just threw up my hands at these people eventually. I mean some of their objection was 'that thing I liked is no longer supported' but the whinging about having to buy two books to play Werewolves was just dumb, especially after how many problems oWoD had from not trying to unify its systems and pretending that multiple splats would never interact in a single campaign, ever. (not to say that nWoD got all that right; CoD is proof it didn't. But it was an attempt to evolve.) I guess I am saying that some of that cheapness is a way of channeling grog dissent in a manner that sounds almost reasonable. "I'd buy it but they're just too greedy" is almost plausible until you pause to think about it even a little. POD lowered costs for smaller firms, but that leaves us with the massive wreckage of so many other larger businesses who tried to compete at scale and could not.
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May 12, 2016 15:58
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I'd also say it's because D&D gets cut a lot of slack by dint of being D&D.
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May 12, 2016 16:20
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D&D also really fucks with "what should games cost" because D&D either costs $150 or $49 depending on the reviewer's slant. Ie: "This $70 game I love is a great deal! It contains everything that would ordinarily cost $150 for the DMG/PHB/MM!" vs "This $70 game I hate is a ripoff money grab, you only need $49 to play D&D with the PHB!"
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May 12, 2016 16:36
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Right, and D&D still has a supplement treadmill even if it is slower than 3.5/4e, it's just now devoted entirely towards the DM as opposed to every player.
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May 12, 2016 17:05
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Leperflesh posted:Sure, wages haven't kept pace with inflation, but that in no way invalidates an analysis of pricing. You can say, well, a lower percentage of consumers can "afford" a luxury item at a given price, but that's partially how prices are set: it's very likely that the reason RPG books are generally cheaper than they were in the 1980s and even the 90s is due to a change in the supply/demand equation. We've already discussed rising supply (in part due to a willingness of suppliers to work for free), but the drop in demand (often bandied about in this thread on very shaky/vague premises like 'people just aren't playing RPGs much any more') may also be affected by falling luxury budgets for the middle class. Thanks for the reply, and sorry if it seemed like I was attacking the wisdom or necessity of analyzing with inflation at all. As you demonstrate, it gives some interesting insights into how the industry is evolving and such. I still don't think that "well, you can still sorta afford your simple hobbies!" is a great victory as opposed to just, y'know, the way things should be, but I was more responding to a general sentiment that tends to swirl around discussions like this, rather than anything you explicitly (or implicitly, really) said in your post. Your post just happened to be the catalyst for my observation.
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May 12, 2016 17:45
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:None of this applies to Palladium though because Kevin Siembieda is probably taking all that poser art and making mock ups with it in his wax machine. Well, they haven't used a wax machine in years now - which is how they can now use that poser art in books. Mind, I think regarding Robotech RPG Tactics, incompetence (either with money, minis, or both) is probably the cause there. Once the people that knew what they were doing (Ninja Then again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe they put all the money into rebuilding the wasteland of Siembieda's toy collection and making those new Rifts jackets everybody is wearing these days. 
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May 12, 2016 17:58
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Wait, is Ninja Theory not working with Palladium anymore? Last I heard they still had a working relationship, Siembieda had just blamed them for everything that had gone wrong.
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May 12, 2016 18:14
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Ninja Division was under contract for the project, and as far as I've heard they walked in 2014 when their contract with Palladium was up for renewal, and that means everything they provided - most notably their sculptors and modelers - went with them. Exactly that went on is unclear, but Siembieda's posts are a good indicator that not all was well. From what I heard it's extremely unlikely that Ninja Division would work with Palladium Games again due to what went on. Presumably Palladium Games has had to fish for people to do their minis design since, and it's no secret how badly Palladium Games has treated freelancers in the past. They have been showing off some prototypes for Wave 2, but we'll see if and when those will actually ever get into production. For all we know the Savage Worlds Rifts KS could be a desperation move, we'll see, Palladium is a cockroach of the industry if nothing else. Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 19:04 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 19:02
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Then again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe they put all the money into rebuilding the wasteland of Siembieda's toy collection and making those new Rifts jackets everybody is wearing these days. The most common speculation I've seen is that, instead of spending the kickstarter money on the things that backers actually, y'know, backed, Siembieda ordered effectively triple the Wave 1 starter sets that he needed to fulfill that part of the kickstarter. Presumably, the idea is that he'd make a mint with the extras at retail and conventions, then use the profits from that to fund Wave 2. It didn't work, for reasons I'm sure anyone with a moment to think about it can figure out, so now there's no money to get the second wave of models done. This is likely the reason Savage Rifts happened at all.
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May 12, 2016 19:31
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occamsnailfile posted:Re RPG pricing: It's always been weird to me how people also flip out over games being divided into multiple books. Like D&D, AD&D, 1st even--you needed the PHB, DMG AND MM to play. Sixty bucks. Pathfinder sells for $50 and you still need the bestiary. They say only the GM needs it, but like most players won't want the inside edge on enemy powers. Plus, monster manuals are great bathroom reading. I love the things myself!
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May 12, 2016 23:21
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I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but it looks like Privateer Press is following Asmodee's lead, with uh, less tact I'm guessing:quote:"Over the last eleven years...online retailers with nearly no overhead and very little meaningful contact with our audience have been undermining the stability of the market by selling product at discounts well below retail value, depending solely on the efforts of our brick and mortar partners who offer services that nurture our audience and grow the market to move their product," [Privateer Press President Sherry Yeary] wrote. "This model of business is widely recognized by experts and the justice system as 'free riding.' While this can be a viable business model for many mainstream products, it is common knowledge that in our industry it's crippling and anticompetitive." quote:Privateer Press Announces Full Distributor Support for Free Rider Policy
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May 13, 2016 01:39
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Anti-Competitive, because they are offering a product cheaper than other people? I'm pretty sure that's the definition of being "competitive". E: At the same time, I can understand why PP is doing this, and it's their right.
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May 13, 2016 02:25
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