|
What's the solution for dealing with gangs like that though? They are entrenched in those communities and they are heavily armed It's hosed up but at least they are doing something, better than the usual "let them do whatever they want" approach.
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 17:52 |
|
|
Goddamn, living in those barrios (our term for Venezuelan fabelas) is already pretty scary, even with local gangs keeping kind of a status quo of terror. Having the military come in, disrupt the relative peace, and start a tiny war must be insane. Much like the Fabelas, the Barrios are a maze poorly made and unplanned buildings, stairs and infrastructure that is impossible to navigate unless you are a local. A single bullet might just as well penetrate a wall and hit an innocent and a war against people that know the area and can move around it sounds like a terrible idea. I'm guessing it's just the most dangerous Barrios that are getting hit? There's a relatively calm one near my home, hopefully it won't be targeted next.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:31
|
|
|
I see. So they are just sort of government revenge attacks, for when the criminals misbehave "too much". It might make sense if it was part of a broader initiative to re-establish order, but I don't see how the occasional one-off, drive-by cop kill frenzy is supposed to accomplish anything. Looks like decision action on TV, I guess.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:32
|
|
|
It's not gonna do anything because ironically the most dangerous places in Venezuela aren't barrios, they're jails, which are entirely ran by criminals, usually by gang leaders.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:36
|
|
|
fnox posted:It's not gonna do anything because ironically the most dangerous places in Venezuela aren't barrios, they're jails, which are entirely ran by criminals, usually by gang leaders. Well, actually, I guess Barrios are a bit safer in the way that gangs won't gently caress with locals that much beyond regular robberies (because they are mostly poor and probably know you/your mom cut his mom's hair and she would be pissed), except for intra-gang violence. Obviously if you or I were to go in them without knowing someone we would have a very bad time. Still a lovely place to live. But then again, that's everywhere in Caracas.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:45
|
|
|
Mukip posted:I see. So they are just sort of government revenge attacks, for when the criminals misbehave "too much". It might make sense if it was part of a broader initiative to re-establish order, but I don't see how the occasional one-off, drive-by cop kill frenzy is supposed to accomplish anything. Looks like decision action on TV, I guess. Yeah, it's essentially all show. The government needs these type of bombastic actions/events to maintain whatever little legitimacy they think they have left. Even the name is so dramatic that it makes my eyes roll: "Operacion de Liberacion y Proteccion del Pueblo" [Operation for the Protection and Liberation of the People]. This is also why so much of what Maduro and the cabinet says is couched in the language of Venezuela and her glorious and dignified people being sovereign heirs to the legacy of our liberator, Simon Bolivar, and his son and our eternal commander, Hugo Chavez, etc. Also, this particular raid on the Cota 905 is aimed at taking out two gang leaders that operate there: El Coqui and Lucifer. Whenever they do capture/kill them, it'll make the news and the government will declare victory... and then the power vacuum will get filled by whoever's next in line and the cycle will continue. Hugoon Chavez posted:I'm guessing it's just the most dangerous Barrios that are getting hit? There's a relatively calm one near my home, hopefully it won't be targeted next. In Caracas, Cota 905 is the hardest hit area (and I think the article mentions a couple of other ones nearby). There is more OLP action happening in the rest of the country, but there's not a whole lot of media coverage on it.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:48
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:Also, this particular raid on the Cota 905 is aimed at taking out two gang leaders that operate there: El Coqui and Lucifer. This reminds me of this glorious list a friend sent my way the other day: A list of real-life Venezuelan criminals' nicknames. Waring: Spanish and Reddit. My favorite I think it's the very first one. Pelo e'bollo which would roughly translate to Pussy Hair. edit: Seven Elbows, Raven's Blanket and The Mun-rah are stand outs, too.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 15:58
|
|
|
But again what's the solution? Just leave the barrios to the gangs?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:01
|
|
|
El Hefe posted:But again what's the solution? Just leave the barrios to the gangs? The problem with their solution is that it's a classic politician's syllogism: We must do something This is something Therefore, we must do this. Which sounds like distilled PSUV.txt, based on what I've read about the government.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:10
|
|
|
Do we think the recall election will happen?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:11
|
|
|
They already tried the "pretty please give us your guns" which obviously didn't work and the peace zones didn't work either, I doubt whatever the Mud has planned is going to do anything either. It all boils down to corruption because every step of the process is flawed, from the policeman who catches the criminal to the judge who hands out the sentence that's what they need to fix first.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:13
|
|
|
Hugoon Chavez posted:edit: Seven Elbows, Raven's Blanket and The Mun-rah are stand outs, too. What is el munra?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:15
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:Do we think the recall election will happen? Sure, just not this year, ensuring the vice-president serves the rest of the term.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:16
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:Do we think the recall election will happen? Yes, but the key issue here is when it happens. The PSUV will throw every wrench it can in its way, but I believe the must understand that at least getting rid of Maduro would ease tensions and buy them more time. The problem is that if it happens after January 10, 2017 the vice president gets to remain in charge for the rest of Maduro's period. Whereas if it's held earlier, new presidential elections must be called. That's why we've seen to many PSUV spokespersons lately saying that there just isn't any time to hold the referendum during this year and why they're inventing artificial roadblocks to slow it down.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 16:18
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:Yes, but the key issue here is when it happens. The PSUV will throw every wrench it can in its way, but I believe the must understand that at least getting rid of Maduro would ease tensions and buy them more time. The problem is that if it happens after January 10, 2017 the vice president gets to remain in charge for the rest of Maduro's period. Whereas if it's held earlier, new presidential elections must be called. Thank you both, that explains a lot to me.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
Fuschia tude posted:What is el munra? Assuming this is a serious question, he's the villain from the "Thundercats" cartoon on television. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumm-Ra
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 17:29
|
|
|
The march this morning to demand that the CNE stop shuffling its feet on the recall referendum is going sideways. The plan was for demonstrators to meet near the Bello Monte subway station and then walk over to the CNE building together. The National Guard set up roadblocks to stop this from happening, so the march isn't heading to the CNE building anymore. The National Guard has also started using tear gas to disperse the crowd, and National Assembly deputy Freddy Guevara who is at the scene also said that they've been shutting rubber bullets at people. Here's a picture of some tear gas at the march this morning:  This image shows a National Guard roadblock stopping protesters. I'm not sure where exactly in Caracas this is, but it seems strange to me that their planned demonstration route took them onto a highway (EDIT: I think that's the Francisco Fajardo highway, and it does look like it was the planned protest route):  Here is a video taken at the same place as pictured above: https://twitter.com/RCamachoVzla/status/730435564122587138 And here are three pictures of the crowd as it prepared to set off from the Bello Monte subway station earlier today:    Earlier today, National Assembly President Henry Ramos Allup said that the PSUV had put up a stage and some stands in front of the CNE building where the opposition protesters were supposed to march to, and that people were handing out fireworks to the government supporters there. Apparently, the demonstration is at Plaza Venezuela right now, which is also cordoned off by National Guard troops to prevent the protesters from moving towards the CNE building. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 17:41 on May 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
Why the gently caress did they start from Bello Monte? Why not go straight to Av. Baralt or Av. Urdaneta? The CNE headquarters are more than an hour away on foot from Bello Monte.quote:This is near the UCV and Plaza Venezuela. I don't think that this is everybody, I'm pretty sure that the march split in two. fnox fucked around with this message at 17:58 on May 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
What a shocking development.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 17:54
|
|
|
fnox posted:Why the gently caress did they start from Bello Monte? Why not go straight to Av. Baralt or Av. Urdaneta? The CNE headquarters are more than an hour away on foot from Bello Monte. I don't know - but Google Maps shows two hits for "Consejo Nacional Electoral" in Caracas: one in the west end (which I think is the main headquarters?) and another near Plaza Venezuela, which is much closer to Bello Monte. I'm guessing they wanted to go to the office near Plaza Venezuela? Henrique Capriles just got pepper sprayed: 
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 17:56
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:I don't know - but Google Maps shows two hits for "Consejo Nacional Electoral" in Caracas: one in the west end (which I think is the main headquarters?) and another near Plaza Venezuela, which is much closer to Bello Monte. I'm guessing they wanted to go to the office near Plaza Venezuela? Headquarters are in La Hoyada at the Plaza Diego Ibarra. They're doing effectively nothing by going to Plaza Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 18:06
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:I don't know - but Google Maps shows two hits for "Consejo Nacional Electoral" in Caracas: one in the west end (which I think is the main headquarters?) and another near Plaza Venezuela, which is much closer to Bello Monte. I'm guessing they wanted to go to the office near Plaza Venezuela? I think they did mean to go to the west end headquarters, there's just a taboo about protesting in western Caracas ever since that first march of La Salida where people got killed, so they set their concentration points on "safe" zones. The march began to retreat back to its starting point a little while ago and will apparently be dissolved since the police won't let them pass. They're supposedly calling for a new protest on Saturday, but I don't see the point unless they hope that a bigger crowd will enable them to cross the imaginary line between eastern and western Caracas. I mean, I get where they're coming from. No one on the opposition wants to be the guy telling people to protest knowing that they will be met with violence, but I think at some point, these neutered protests start doing more harm than good for morale.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 18:09
|
|
|
What they need to do is converge at the Plaza Diego Ibarra. No routes, no nothing, just several different groups joining in at the CNE headquarters. The police can't blockade them all.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 18:13
|
|
|
La Patilla just put up a video showing some of what happened today. You can see it here, and my translation is below:quote:[0:17] Cameraman: Why are you marching today? Labradoodle posted:I mean, I get where they're coming from. No one on the opposition wants to be the guy telling people to protest knowing that they will be met with violence, but I think at some point, these neutered protests start doing more harm than good for morale. Yeah, definitely. I think they've nailed the "peaceful protest" side of the equation, but that's about it. In the video I posted, there's even a bit when the protesters start yelling at other protesters to not throw rocks at the National Guard.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 21:40
|
|
|
There are a couple of National Assembly deputies speaking at the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs up here in Ottawa right now. The meeting is scheduled to last until 6:15 EST time, and it's being streamed (and translated into English). You can watch it here. (EDIT: It ended early!) This is really good for anyone interested in what's happening in the country, since the deputies are explaining the situation to a bunch of people who don't know anything about it. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 22:36 on May 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 22:21
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:The march this morning to demand that the CNE stop shuffling its feet on the recall referendum is going sideways. I guess ill be the nillist and ask, do you think maduro will go full assad/gadaffi on the protesters and just have the national guard open fire on them? to me it seems like thats going to happen eventualy.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 22:32
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:I guess ill be the nillist and ask, do you think maduro will go full assad/gadaffi on the protesters and just have the national guard open fire on them? to me it seems like thats going to happen eventualy. No, I don't think the National Guard would be used to do that. Part of me (possibly the naive part) doesn't believe that your average National Guard soldier would obey that kind of order. What is much more likely to happen is that the national government will rely on irregular groups to attack protesters. They go by many names in Venezuela, perhaps most commonly colectivos armados [armed collectives]. They're an offshoot of these earlier organizations called circulos bolivarianos, which were essentially neighbourhood watch groups that happened to have been heavily armed and political. Using these types of irregular armed forces presents a couple of benefits for the government. First, it spares them the optics of National Guard/other official security forces attacking innocent protesters, which the international media and other organizations would not be OK with at all. Second, it grants them plausible deniability in that they can "unleash" these irregular forces on protesters to do their dirty work for them, and then pretend like they had nothing to do with them. Here is a video of what is probably a colectivo in action during the 2014 protests. I'm not entirely clear on how closely the PSUV is connected to the colectivos armados. Do they provide them with weapons, paycheques and direct orders? I'm not sure. I do know that the PSUV has a history of creating militias and pseudo-militias, so the colectivos armados aren't exactly out of place. Anyway, things start to get super blurry when you consider the fact that there are also likely to be individuals or groups of individuals who sympathize with the government but have no official connection to the PSUV, who nevertheless still take it upon themselves to go and act violently towards protesters. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch both documented cases of non-uniformed civilians attacking opposition protesters within sight of official security forces who did nothing to stop them during the 2014 protests. In other words, you don't have to believe that colectivos armados are a real thing to see how the government wouldn't want to stop groups of violent supporters from attacking opposition protesters.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2016 22:50
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:The march this morning to demand that the CNE stop shuffling its feet on the recall referendum is going sideways. Sounds like things are out of control thanks to those pesky non-PSUV parties. Better put that referendum on hold like they said they would, at least until the opposition can prove it can hold a rally that doesn't result in its leader being pepper sprayed. Better luck next time, MUD! Maybe try again after January 10 of next year? 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 03:44
|
|
|
To follow up on the NA deputies speaking in Canada, on the other side of the pond the recent protests and scarcity have been getting some coverage , which is uncommon in the British press.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 11:20
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:Second, it grants them plausible deniability in that they can "unleash" these irregular forces on protesters to do their dirty work for them, and then pretend like they had nothing to do with them. I think you mean "Condemn the MUD for the violence and arrest some of its leaders".
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 11:27
|
|
|
More from The Atlantic, by two Venezuelans.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 15:54
|
|
|
The economic emergency decree that Maduro decreed earlier this year expired on May 9. You might remember that Maduro asked the National Assembly to vote on implementing the decree, as is the law; the National Assembly voted against the decree, but the Supreme Court ruled that the decree was in place anyway regardless of what the National Assembly said. You might also remember that the whole point of the decree according to Maduro was to grant him emergency powers to do whatever he thought necessary to fix the economy. As evidenced by the situation in the country today, nothing that Maduro did (and I would argue that he actually did virtually nothing) had even a hint of a positive impact on the economy, and in fact the situation in the country today is worse than it was when he declared the decree. Inflation continues to rise uncontrollably, the scarcity crisis (for food and medicine in particular) continues unabated, and there is absolutely no way for short-term or arguably medium-term relief. Maduro declared an extension to the decree yesterday, essentially giving himself dictatorial powers in the name of fixing the economy. Maduro said that the economic emergency decree would stand until the end of 2016. He also spoke on the recall referendum efforts against him, and said: quote:None of the strategies that the oligarchical, fascist right wing has announced is political viable, nor will they achieve their objective of recalling or overthrowing the Bolivarian revolution. None. The people will be there [to stop them] wherever they go. It won’t happen in 2016, in 2017, or in 2030. The Lone Badger posted:I think you mean "Condemn the MUD for the violence and arrest some of its leaders". Ha! Yes, definitely, this as well. Typical fascist false flag operation: hiring thugs to attack yourselves!
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 17:11
|
|
|
Vlex posted:More from The Atlantic, by two Venezuelans. The Atlantic posted:Burglars rampaged through the lab, scattering samples of highly dangerous viruses and toxic fungal spores into the air. Wow. Hope no new weird plagues got started. EDIT: Is the Zika crisis as serious as the article makes it sound? It seems like it'd be a sideshow compared to all the other crises.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
wdarkk posted:Wow. Hope no new weird plagues got started. The crisis was just breaking and making international headlines when I was in Amazonas January-March this year, and based on my extremely limited interaction with the good people of Puerto Ayacucho in that time, I heard of one case. I imagine it's much worse now, but (and I'm completely going out on a limb here) the extreme dryness of the climate this year might have ameliorated the spread so far by denying A. aegypti breeding grounds. For instance, the quickest route between Caracas and Pto. Ayacucho involves going on a barge over the Orinoco via a little shitstain of a town called Puerto Paez. The waiting area for the ferry in August (end of wet season) was thick with huge mosquitos, which left me with bites whose marks you can still see. By contrast, crossing the same point in January I wasn't touched by them. So that might be having something of an effect.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
I'm fascinated by the government of Venezuela. I'm trying to get into the frame of mind of somebody who has screwed up this badly, and must surely know that there is no future for them or their country as long as they are in charge, but instead of resigning they think "nope, gonna ride this train off the cliff". I cannot imagine what they think their end-game must be at this point. I really hope somebody somebody does a bunch of interviews with them in 10+ years time, when their government has gone and the heat has died down. I want to know what's going down in the Chavista bunker and how they rationalized their behaviour at the time. "One more slogan-laden speech blaming the USA will turn things around".
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
They are now accusing the United States of "judicial terrorism" against Venezuela because they dared to catch and prosecute Cilia Flores' nephews for drug trafficking.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
Mukip posted:I'm fascinated by the government of Venezuela. I'm trying to get into the frame of mind of somebody who has screwed up this badly, and must surely know that there is no future for them or their country as long as they are in charge, but instead of resigning they think "nope, gonna ride this train off the cliff". I cannot imagine what they think their end-game must be at this point. I really hope somebody somebody does a bunch of interviews with them in 10+ years time, when their government has gone and the heat has died down. I want to know what's going down in the Chavista bunker and how they rationalized their behaviour at the time. "One more slogan-laden speech blaming the USA will turn things around". I'm convinced Marduro is either totally batshit crazy or will never, ever break kayfabe.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 19:12
|
|
|
The real problem with those diseases is that you can't even find medicine to alleviate the symptoms. When the Chicunguya outburst happened, a big issue was finding acetaminophen, which was the only known medicine to alleviate symptoms. My mother in law has osteoporosis and has to take a single pill each month. She can't find it. My mom started getting allergies, which is a silly thing until you can't sleep or breath without effort, etc. An actual dangerous disease right now is devastating because a lot of the time there's no choice but to tough it out.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 19:21
|
|
|
It blows my mind that acetaminophen is a loving rare commodity. I'm also amazed at how far the SC justices can stick their heads up their own asses. I understand a lot of PSUV people would lose their lofty positions if they started acting for the good of their country, but it seems like the SC justices have literally no personal loss if they decide to stop being evil.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 19:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 17:52 |
|
|
Saladman posted:It blows my mind that acetaminophen is a loving rare commodity. I'm also amazed at how far the SC justices can stick their heads up their own asses. I understand a lot of PSUV people would lose their lofty positions if they started acting for the good of their country, but it seems like the SC justices have literally no personal loss if they decide to stop being evil. Well they did rule that they can never be removed, so yeah, they don't.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2016 19:45
|
|