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LuffyVeggies posted:Take a closer look at the stat sheet. Mung Roach has a poison rating of 4. Line changed to:  drat, Poison and Disease from the Roaches? This could be annoying. If I didn't have five Priests.
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May 6, 2016 23:09
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The Anama Church is the dominant forse of this island. Gotta say, "Anama Church" sounds like what a cult from Silent Hill would be named. Is Magic evil, or are it's practitioners evil...competition? 
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May 7, 2016 01:20
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Rockopolis posted:Gotta say, "Anama Church" sounds like what a cult from Silent Hill would be named. Is Magic evil, or are it's practitioners evil...competition? See, I always figured the founder was a refrigerator salesman.
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May 7, 2016 01:21
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LuffyVeggies posted:I usually didn't go to the Point of Contemplation until later during the quest. I also don't believe there's any benefit to visiting there, other than the pool that cures diseases. Which I didn't use, because I thought it would cause disease instead. berryjon posted:
Also, if you do Slimes->Roaches, you're overpowered, but can still have a few challenges and gives decent XP rewards. If you do Roaches first, there's no gameplay reason to ever do the Slime quest.
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May 7, 2016 01:27
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Few typos I noticed: "tenants" instead of "tenets", "mould" instead of "mold" (a mould is something you use to shape things e.g. for casting), and Delilah says at one point "You think the..." when she probably meant "I think the...". Rockopolis posted:The Anama Church is the dominant forse of this island. Fixed, and it's also a play on the word Anima,
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May 7, 2016 01:32
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Some kind of healing.... magic?
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May 7, 2016 01:41
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Really it's the "deranged" in that question that bugs me. I mean, a deranged mind isn't going to be able to focus enough to use magic properly. Magic can be directed toward evil, of course, but that's by a deliberate and malicious choice.
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May 7, 2016 03:53
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Glazius posted:Really it's the "deranged" in that question that bugs me. I mean, a deranged mind isn't going to be able to focus enough to use magic properly. Magic can be directed toward evil, of course, but that's by a deliberate and malicious choice. As Art pointed out, the word choice is designed to associate "Mage" with "Mad", leaving "Priest" as "Not Mad". The Anama's religious creed has its ups and downs in presentation, and that was definitely a misstep on their part.
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May 7, 2016 04:02
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The big problem, as always, with including any kind of philosophy in a RPG is that it inevitably comes of as worse than it could be. If you're discussing a philosophical point IRL, you're engaging another person who (hopefully) has thought their position through and can argue for or against your own opinion in an organic way, which the game really cannot. After all, the player can come up with endless arguments for or against what the game tells them, but the game can only offer whatever argument that has been programmed in. For example, I think that there are good possible counterpoints to Art's objections in the last update, but again, the limitations of the medium leave the whole Anama philosophy as hopelessly simplistic and kinda unconvincing.
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May 7, 2016 05:40
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Cerebral Bore posted:For example, I think that there are good possible counterpoints to Art's objections in the last update, but again, the limitations of the medium leave the whole Anama philosophy as hopelessly simplistic and kinda unconvincing. Which is also why I'm mining your guys' comments for counterpoints. Art won round one. There are more to come.
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May 7, 2016 05:43
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My chief counterpoint: Divine magic is just mages being philosophical rather than scientific. Thus, Mages rule, everyone else drools 
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May 7, 2016 05:54
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We're just going to murder a priest and take his ring, aren't we? is a pretty universally applicable counterargument, after all.
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May 7, 2016 06:30
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Rockopolis posted:We're just going to murder a priest and take his ring, aren't we? Well, I suppose it would be 6 priests to get 6 rings. For some reason, membership is an all or nothing deal. Maybe there's something in the scripture about not being in adventuring parties with non-Anama?  Also, it begins to sound like one of those moral dilemma questions: Given the choice, is it morally better to save the life of a priest or let him die and use his ring to unlock magic that could save more people? Is it morally ok to kill one priest for a ring that'll give you access to magic that could save more people? If the priest was a fat man standing near a train...etc.
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May 7, 2016 06:48
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Okay, the slimes had the excuse of being toxic enough to dissolve buildings. How are roaches dismantling buildings and breaking walls?
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May 7, 2016 11:41
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Nuramor posted:Okay, the slimes had the excuse of being toxic enough to dissolve buildings. How are roaches dismantling buildings and breaking walls? They're bloody huge roaches and the game is applying the Spider-Man theory of insectile strength?
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May 7, 2016 15:38
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Clearly to solve the roaches we need to introduce some of those giant intelligent friendly talking spiders up here. They'll deal with it! What do you mean, invasive species are bad? 
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May 9, 2016 04:31
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President Ark posted:Clearly to solve the roaches we need to introduce some of those giant intelligent friendly talking spiders up here. They'll deal with it! We've already introduced Slithzerai outside their native environment.
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May 9, 2016 04:45
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The Lone Badger posted:We've already introduced Slithzerai outside their native environment.  "I'm helping!"
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May 9, 2016 05:00
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That reminds me, why don't the lizards have horrible sunburn reactions?
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May 9, 2016 05:37
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wiegieman posted:That reminds me, why don't the lizards have horrible sunburn reactions? Because the weather has been massively overcast for the past couple weeks. I'm still trying to fit that in at some point.
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May 9, 2016 05:45
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wiegieman posted:That reminds me, why don't the lizards have horrible sunburn reactions? I'm sure the wizards at the Tower cooked up some kind of radiation shielding spell during the long period of preparation and construction of Fort Emergence. Many of the younger wizards have probably never seen the surface and all they know is that there's a massive fireball that will literally burn you if you just stand outside, so (rather excessive) precautions must be taken. (It's not just slithzerai. Human exiles are pale as fish and will burn incredibly quickly) To support this, the game references you being recognisable due to your pale skin even after you've been on the surface for a while. Because the shielding spells are stopping you from tanning?
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May 9, 2016 05:52
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The Lone Badger posted:I'm sure the wizards at the Tower cooked up some kind of radiation shielding spell during the long period of preparation and construction of Fort Emergence. Many of the younger wizards have probably never seen the surface and all they know is that there's a massive fireball that will literally burn you if you just stand outside, so (rather excessive) precautions must be taken. Mind if I borrow this for the next trip back to the Tower? Have Solberg or Peregrine ask the party about how it's working, and the party going "What Spell?!?!"
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May 9, 2016 06:00
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Go ahead.
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May 9, 2016 06:02
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berryjon posted:Mind if I borrow this for the next trip back to the Tower? Have Solberg or Peregrine ask the party about how it's working, and the party going "What Spell?!?!" Doing something without considering others is Standard Practice for mages. Selfishness is Wizardry 101!
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May 9, 2016 12:46
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I personally love the intro to this game, especially for this line: "THIS! Is a tree!" "... Whats it do?"
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May 11, 2016 04:52
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And here's the Shayder Anama Question - quite reasonable, don't you think? I should have the next update done tomorrow. There's a lot of stuff in Shayder, so I may have to break it into two - the town proper, then the Temple and the Sewers.
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May 14, 2016 03:20
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Honestly, unlike the first question, this one is much more reasonable and fair. The fact is that in real life, humanity has had to overcome plenty of obstacles and hardships with even less than the Anama (we don't even have prayers - at least not ones that have any visible effect). Real life is a perfect example of how great deeds can be accomplished without magic. Still, magic makes it easier. Even Priest spells (which the Anama are okay with) make it easier.
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May 14, 2016 04:22
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The problem is its still working from the assumption that mage spells are evil, with people viewing them as a necessary evil. Yeah, you can accomplish great things without magic, but there isn't any particular reason to. Magic would have made the process vastly easier. If anything they probably risked/lost more lives by refusing to use magic than they would have if they'd had a few mages around to blast the goblin hordes with firestorms. Using hard work when you could have used easy work isn't a virtue.
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May 14, 2016 04:37
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No, it's working from the assumption that magic isn't necessary, ergo mages aren't necessary. You can easily throw the same thing back at them with the rhetoric of 'sounds like all you needed was hard work and courage, prayer wasn't necessary either.' Double bingo if they go for the 'anything not necessary is evil' route though. Society is practically based on all sorts of things that aren't strictly required.
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May 14, 2016 06:58
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To that question as it is phrased, the only honest answer I can give is "yes". But the excluded middle is "... but they would have been convenient." The Great Wall of China proves that modern construction equipment isn't, strictly speaking, necessary to produce immense structures: you can do it with slavery and death (I count "forced labor", even if it's temporary, as slavery, and far too many of the workers on the Great Wall died during its construction.) But modern construction equipment sure makes it easier, and usually, nobody dies during the construction of modern buildings.
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May 14, 2016 07:28
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The question as it is phrased forces a "Yes" but it's obvious magic would have been a useful tool, if they have managed that much without magic, how much better would things be by now if they had used it?
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May 14, 2016 07:54
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berryjon posted:And here's the Shayder Anama Question - quite reasonable, don't you think? First off, the entire premise of the question is misleading, because it doesn't actually prove anything. It's theoretically possible to clear tangled thickets with your bare hands, but that doesn't justify humans never using a machete. The fact that you cleared the island by yourselves (with apparently minimal support from the Empire at large) is very impressive, but doesn't really prove that Magic should be eradicated. Secondly, in this particular example, Mage spells weren't needed to perform a great deed. But the plural of anecdote is not data. Think of a lot of the other great deeds in the history of the world (as we know it) were heavily reliant on magic: >Stopping Grah-Hoth required serious mage spells (both the first time and when Art, Peregrine et al did so) >Mages basically made Exile livable and into a functional community. I can't remember the exact wording, but it's stated somewhere that the powerful mages sent down to Exile created the mushrooms which are the primary food source and helped spread the glowing fungus that keeps the place lit. >Stopping the slimes required the Mage spell Fireball OR a Priest spell which is a carbon-copy of Fireball. Logically, if you hate Mage spells, a Priest spell that's the exact equivalent should also be off limits, therefore, the slimes should should still be wreaking havoc. >I won't go into details (for obvious reasons), but stopping the Roach plague requires the use of a certain powerful Magic spell to purge the place. Completely random side note: "battling goblins, ursagi, cold, and disease". Goblins, really? And the Isle of Bigail is a tropical island filled with jungles - is cold really that much of an issue? MagusofStars fucked around with this message at 14:43 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 12:01
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Let's take a look at opportunity costs. If I decide to dig a ditch with my bare hands, rather than using a shovel, it will take me far, far longer. That extra time spent is the cost I am paying to avoid making use of the shovel. With that time I could have done any number of other beneficial things -- worked and donated the proceeds to charity, cleared farmland faster so people wouldn't starve, or just focused on making life more comfortable for everyone. But instead I spent that time digging in the dirt with my bare hands. And why? Because I don't like the fact that shovels can be used to hit people on the head? The refusal to use magic to help clear habitable lands in Bigail doubtless added many years of backbreaking labor to the process. Why don't you go ask the guy who's bent double from day 20 of moving boulders out of a field how he'd feel if a mage came by and cleared the entire field for him in a day?
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May 14, 2016 16:01
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Man, the fact that all of you guys are coming up with great arguments against this statement probably says a lot about me - none of it good. Am I too gullible or impressionable? I'd say at best I try to avoid conflict, and even then that's not always good.
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May 14, 2016 16:28
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LuffyVeggies posted:Man, the fact that all of you guys are coming up with great arguments against this statement probably says a lot about me - none of it good. Am I too gullible or impressionable? I'd say at best I try to avoid conflict, and even then that's not always good. Well, you considered the question in a vacuum, without thinking of the next leading question this priest would ask in a real conversation where he was attempting to convert you to his way of thinking. Start with an obvious question, follow it up with logical extensions, then after your target has been agreeing with you for a while, spring your dogma on them as if it follows from your previous points.
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May 14, 2016 19:13
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Last question proved Art is more than happy to break out the formal logic, so I'll take a stab at it; it's fun to see which cases match. Anecdotal evidence; "it was true for me this time, so it will hold true in all cases." Just because they got away with not using magic this time says nothing about some other catastrophe that could only be solved with magic. They are also using the Noble Effort, "we worked really hard on this, so it must have value/be right." Then there's what has already been pointed out, the "we live in the best of all possible worlds" - refusing to consider that magic could have made the process easier and safer, and they would be better off than they are now if had used it. All that said, they have a point about how one can do great deeds without magic, but the jump to "therefore magic isn't needed" is wrong.
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May 14, 2016 20:38
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I think part of this really hinges on how magic actually is in the world. I mean, we're PCs, we can pick up spells whenever barring character creation disadvantages, but how much of a sacrifice or a possibility is it really for the common man to start using magic? And magic is never really dangerous for us, barring friendly fire incidents or quickfire, but mages traffic regularly with demons and other forces. So it may not be "do you want to use a shovel to dig the hole" but "do you want to use the radioactive shovel that plugs into your soul to dig the hole". On its face though, with how PCs experience the magic system? Shovel vs. not-shovel.
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May 15, 2016 02:43
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Glazius posted:I think part of this really hinges on how magic actually is in the world. I mean, we're PCs, we can pick up spells whenever barring character creation disadvantages, but how much of a sacrifice or a possibility is it really for the common man to start using magic? And magic is never really dangerous for us, barring friendly fire incidents or quickfire, but mages traffic regularly with demons and other forces. The number of mages who go fooling around with demons is markedly lower than the number of mages in the world. Getting screwed up by demons is kind of the "accidentally shot myself in the foot with my gun" of the Exile world -- it's not going to happen to you if you don't own a gun, but just because you do own one doesn't mean you're a guaranteed foot-shooter. As for the common man picking up magic, let's extend my shovel analogy earlier: if you have to dig a trench, would you rather use a shovel or a back hoe? The back hoe could dig a huge trench in a few hours, which would take you days even with the shovel. But you're not licensed to use a back hoe, so you hire an operator instead; they bring their expertise and specialized equipment, do the job, you pay them, you're both happy. We know that magic can be used for such civil engineering jobs because the Castle in Exile was built by magic (its walls are formed out of massive single slabs of stone).
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May 15, 2016 03:23
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Glazius posted:I think part of this really hinges on how magic actually is in the world. Not so much how it works, but look at how the Tower handles teaching Magic, which is implied to be copied wholesale from the Empire's methodology, just with more students. When you apprentice yourself, the first thing they do is magically silence you for a year. Opinions about why may vary, but the justification given in-universe is that this gives the students an appreciation for what they are learning - and to avoid accidents as apprentices don't start casting spells willy-nilly. They also reward people for good behaviour with new spells - much as Solberg and X do for the party in this game. In Exile, the only mages who can be said to have really gone off the reservation is Linda who has had plenty of contact with Demons. Certainly many are arrogant, or otherwise anti-social, but they're not completely crazy like she is.
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May 15, 2016 03:32
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There is that one mage in Exile 2 trapped with a demon he summoned in some isolated building.
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May 15, 2016 03:37
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