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Maybe people shouldn't kill themselves over turning ganking into such a chore. Take out a talos. Warp to a random belt. Split the guns and just blow up every venture in range. It's not profitable but it's fun.avatarinwin posted:yes, and instead of giving any opportunity to gankers just make JFs immune to ganking barring user error To be fair there's a lot of user error to go around. Zephyrine fucked around with this message at 22:31 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 22:28
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Zephyrine posted:To be fair there's a lot of user error to go around. what part of any of JFing is hard? making sure to buy extra cyno mallers? don't confuse 'time consuming' with difficulty
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May 14, 2016 22:29
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i feel like i'm on eve o right now debating lucas kell
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May 14, 2016 22:32
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avatarinwin posted:what part of any of JFing is hard? making sure to buy extra cyno mallers? 37 of these supposedly immortal space vessels died in the past week according to zkill.
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May 14, 2016 22:32
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Gotta say, I'm not a fan of instalock archons. I've died/ taken so much damage from their instalock fighters in gatecamps its just annoying. Also annoying: I cant seem to find any solo fights recently. Like 1 fight in the last 2 weeks and I'm just dieing left and right.
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May 14, 2016 22:34
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Zephyrine posted:37 of these supposedly immortal space vessels died in the past week according to zkill. and every single one of them could have been easily avoided if the pilot was tabbed in and paying attention
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May 14, 2016 22:35
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avatarinwin posted:and every single one of them could have been easily avoided if the pilot was tabbed in and paying attention Right but they aren't paying attention and they are dying in droves to clever and tenacious killers. On paper they are immortal. In practise they are killed more than enough to call it balanced. Three titans worth of jump freighters in a week.
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May 14, 2016 22:37
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also i was there for about half of them, they got alphaed by half a dozen dreads undocking after them and volleying them. all you have to do is dock back up, or use a different station, or jump out anywhere, or bait them over and over again because it takes them about 6 seconds to kill you if they're all 100% perfect and execute it perfectly.
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May 14, 2016 22:38
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DisgracelandUSA posted:Except now the game of whack a mole will only have one hole. Also, hostile entities, the kind that own sov (lol), rarely use t1 freighters. Only John Q Publord hauling a his belongings from Jita to Rens to make a new life in his new highsec mission Corp. I generally agree with JFs being too safe, but I'd fall much more into the camp of cynoing into docking radius is the problem -- which is true for all caps but JFs are the ones that really abuse it by teleporting from station to station. I see the stupid watch list has finally been fixed, so that removed a weapon against cap pilots. Now the balance should swing back against a thing that makes their lives too easy. How do cynos work with the new citadels? Can you cyno right next to them as well? Also, someone fill me in on these destroyers with the aoe microjump stuff, like any weird edge effects. Can they move a cyno ship? Does a scram on a secondary ship stop them from getting jumped with it? Do they work on anything or are capships "too big" to be bounced?
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May 14, 2016 22:40
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Zephyrine posted:On paper they are immortal. hunting the stupid is pointless because eventually you will run out of stupid, and the only people left are untouchable. the only reason people are stupid is because of the hubris of their invulnerability. i'll ask again: what part of any of JFing is hard? making sure to buy extra cyno mallers? don't confuse 'time consuming' with difficulty
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May 14, 2016 22:43
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avatarinwin posted:also i was there for about half of them, they got alphaed by half a dozen dreads undocking after them and volleying them. all you have to do is dock back up, or use a different station, or jump out anywhere, or bait them over and over again because it takes them about 6 seconds to kill you if they're all 100% perfect and execute it perfectly. But then they aren't docking back up. They align and alt tab. People break gate cloak and align without watching local. They jump to bad cynos. They get disconnected after undocking from bad stations. Victims everywhere. All you have to do it claim them. You don't balance a game based on paper-odds and optimal application. You look at how people play the game and then balance based on that. Edit: and we will never run out of stupid victims.
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May 14, 2016 22:43
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Zephyrine posted:But then they aren't docking back up. They align and alt tab. People break gate cloak and align without watching local. They jump to bad cynos. They get disconnected after undocking from bad stations. Victims everywhere. All you have to do it claim them. you have to base it on the optimal situations, because everyone good is going to do it optimally, which means killing the stupid is loving pointless. every single big time JF guy I know has never lost a JF, nor do they fear the loss of their JFs, because it's laughable.
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May 14, 2016 22:45
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Klyith posted:only took how many years since the freighter got lowslots? If people couldn't cyno jump freighters to zero on a station then how would you even pass a station with a single neutral pilot in local? avatarinwin posted:you have to base it on the optimal situations, because everyone good is going to do it optimally, which means killing the stupid is loving pointless. every single big time JF guy I know has never lost a JF, nor do they fear the loss of their JFs, because it's laughable. Do I count as a "big time JF guy"? I don't know. I lost something like 5 or 6 jump freighters. I've never known someone active over a long period to claim zero losses who didn't seem to have a personal need to claim it rather than be open about it. ITL lost something like 22 Jump Freighters over the course of a year and we did everything in our power to keep people from making mistakes while providing information. Zephyrine fucked around with this message at 22:49 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 22:46
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Zephyrine posted:If people couldn't cyno jump freighters to zero on a station then how would you even pass a station with a single neutral pilot in local? do you know how laughably easy it is to move loving supers, let alone a JF you can insta web into warp?
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May 14, 2016 22:47
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if you 'adapt' (as in using an underused gimmick which only works once) to killing them the way that is easily countered with minimal effort, people will just stop doing that, just like they have with dreads alphaing them off the undock.
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May 14, 2016 22:52
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avatarinwin posted:do you know how laughably easy it is to move loving supers, let alone a JF you can insta web into warp? See now you are bullshitting me because you want this more than an open argument. Low sec border systems would be filled with cloaky instant locking tackle and considering a JF needs about a hundred trips to just break even the initial purchase. People would just look for other alternatives/move their industry out of null sec. Never mind doing it in null sec where cloaky dictors can sneak up on your cynos.
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May 14, 2016 22:54
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Zephyrine posted:See now you are bullshitting me because you want this more than an open argument. Low sec border systems would be filled with cloaky instant locking tackle and considering a JF needs about a hundred trips to just break even the initial purchase. People would just look for other alternatives/move their industry out of null sec. we have to balance based on how people play, not on where the endgame will end up
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May 14, 2016 22:57
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avatarinwin posted:we have to balance based on how people play, not on where the endgame will end up Jump freighter work pays around 70 million isk per hour and hull. So it takes around 100 hours to pay off the hull and everything after that is profit. You can shift the risk around as much as you like as long as the reward pays for the investment and the effort. The reward being the price for the work. But once you hit certain pain thresholds. People will stop different activities in remote locations and you get less work. If survival is taken completely out of the hands of the jump freighter pilot. Where you look at a loss and the conclusion is "I couldn't have done anything different to avoid this" And the clients aren't willing to pay to compensate for hulls being lost on a regular basis. Then that route will end and those juice jump freighters you were looking forward to killing will not be there in the first place. Because someone already killed a handfull and the lake is now empty of fish.
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May 14, 2016 23:03
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avatarinwin posted:we have to balance based on how people play, not on where the endgame will end up avatarinwin posted:you have to base it on the optimal situations, because everyone good is going to do it optimally, which means killing the stupid is loving pointless. every single big time JF guy I know has never lost a JF, nor do they fear the loss of their JFs, because it's laughable.
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May 14, 2016 23:09
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Hi guys, we've discussed in the past how globby is completely ignorant of risk/reward gameplay. Lets go ahead and shelve any ideas he has for JF's right next to the "Removing Local will make Nullsec Better for people who live there" argument. That shelf being in the trashcan.
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May 14, 2016 23:09
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yeah a 20-30 second spool up timer to jump would solve the issue and i don't think anyone would think it's a bad idea. currently you have no way of interrupting or stopping or slowing down enemy logistics and like one guy can supply an entire alliance with multiple fleets in a couple of hours, kinda dumb imo
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May 14, 2016 23:09
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May 14, 2016 23:10
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Klyith posted:Also, someone fill me in on these destroyers with the aoe microjump stuff, like any weird edge effects. Can they move a cyno ship? Does a scram on a secondary ship stop them from getting jumped with it? Do they work on anything or are capships "too big" to be bounced?
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May 14, 2016 23:10
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but yeah to wrap it up since this isn't going anywhere a jf wont die unless 1) the pilot is afk 2) the pilot is unaware of a game mechanic 3) the pilot is lazy* *the effort required to be 100% safe is super super low too btw
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May 14, 2016 23:16
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avatarinwin posted:*the effort required to be 100% safe is super super low too btw if its so low, why do so many jfs die though? i think we can safely call this myth... busted
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May 14, 2016 23:18
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Blazing Zero posted:if its so low, why do so many jfs die though? i think we can safely call this myth... busted gently caress
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May 14, 2016 23:18
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Klyith posted:How do cynos work with the new citadels? Can you cyno right next to them as well? Yes, you can cyno right next to them. MJFDs can move a cyno ship, but they will only move the ship; the cyno field stays in the original position. Any ship that has a scram on it at the end of the MJFD cycle will not be moved by the jump. If the ship using the MJFD is scrammed at any point during its cycle, the MJFD will do nothing at the end of its cycle. They only work on subcaps.
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May 14, 2016 23:19
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avatarinwin posted:yeah a 20-30 second spool up timer to jump would solve the issue and i don't think anyone would think it's a bad idea. currently you have no way of interrupting or stopping or slowing down enemy logistics and like one guy can supply an entire alliance with multiple fleets in a couple of hours, kinda dumb imo Which is also dumb because then you would never be able to leave a null or low sec station with a single hostile in system because you would get tackled before the spool up timer finishes.
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May 14, 2016 23:19
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ullerrm posted:Yes, you can cyno right next to them. Actually the cyno ship will stay as well.
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May 14, 2016 23:19
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avatarinwin posted:gently caress i just calls em like i sees em 
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May 14, 2016 23:20
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Zephyrine posted:Which is also dumb because then you would never be able to leave a null or low sec station with a single hostile in system because you would get tackled before the spool up timer finishes. and thus the entire logistics network of the imperium is collapsed, by a single solo lowsec madman
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May 14, 2016 23:21
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don't control the system? can't use it for logistics... makes sense to me
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May 14, 2016 23:23
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Whenever gankers are brainstorming improvements to jump freightering. I always wonder "how much isk do they think we are making for us to work in a world designed by them?" What sums do they imagine there to be in this business where turning it into Russian roulette would still leave it with enough isk to continue to the point where they will actually find targets?
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May 14, 2016 23:25
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yes, because jump freighting payments are determined by CCP and definitely aren't super low because of the ease of moving 300,000 m3 of poo poo wherever you want, whenever you want unimpeded by anything or anyone. e: except jump fatigue, the ultimate enemy of JFs 1001 Arabian dicks fucked around with this message at 23:29 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 23:26
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avatarinwin posted:yes, because jump freighting payments are determined by CCP and definitely aren't super low because of the ease of moving 300,000 m3 of poo poo wherever you want, whenever you want unimpeded by anything or anyone. The more it costs the fewer forms of industry becomes viable in remote locations. What do I care if I make 400 million in a single trip. If that's the only trip I'm making this week? I think our efficiency peaked when people were literally building T1 battlecruisers in north west Deklein and we could export them to Jita and they could be sold at a profit.
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May 14, 2016 23:29
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okay, so since a 20-30 second spooling timer is absolutely unacceptable, and being able to jump only from border systems is out, what would you suggest giving to gankers to allow them to kill something other than a stupid/afk/dced/lazy JF? Or should the ability to kill people like you who spend the tiny amount of effort needed to make yourself unkillable be impossible? e: or the ability to interrupt logistics at all? Currently nothing can stop jump freighters from resupplying an alliance of thousands with only a few pilots 1001 Arabian dicks fucked around with this message at 23:38 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 23:36
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avatarinwin posted:okay, so since a 20-30 second spooling timer is absolutely unacceptable, and being able to jump only from border systems is out, what would you suggest giving to gankers to allow them to kill something other than a stupid/afk/dced/lazy JF? Or should the ability to kill people like you who spend the tiny amount of effort needed to make yourself unkillable be impossible? I lost 6 jump freighters personally. How unkillable is that? Sure the last one was over a year ago but I certainly contributed to the pool. I never lost one to gankers but still...
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May 14, 2016 23:38
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Zephyrine posted:I lost 6 jump freighters personally. How unkillable is that? how did you lose them?
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May 14, 2016 23:39
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avatarinwin posted:how did you lose them? Inexperience mainly. I never had anyone to show me the ropes and so I read up on everything I could and went by trial and error from there. Most deaths were combinations of bad stations and very skilled hunters who knew about it. Also bad gates.
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May 14, 2016 23:41
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That sure explained a lot
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