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NikkolasKing posted:Well one person elsewhere was going on and on about how Israel is right to hate the Iranian nuclear deal because Iran is an empire and is all over Syria, Lebanon and Iraq and that MAD doesn't work when your opponent is crazy and when your own country could be destroyed by a single nuke. Israel is very small as countries go. Iran, despite it's clusterfuck of a government system, is more or less among the sanest, competent and most pragmatic countries in the Middle East at the moment. That doesn't mean they're good or anything (considering that they and the Russia are the only thing standing between Bashar al- Assad and some horrible method of execution) but they are certainly not crazy.
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May 16, 2016 17:39
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NikkolasKing posted:Well one person elsewhere was going on and on about how Israel is right to hate the Iranian nuclear deal because Iran is an empire and is all over Syria, Lebanon and Iraq and that MAD doesn't work when your opponent is crazy and when your own country could be destroyed by a single nuke. Israel is very small as countries go. Although Iran dwarfs them in terms of raw manpower, Israel spends quite a bit more on their military than Iran does, with a much larger defense budget that's supplemented by billions of dollars in aid money and equipment from the largest and most advanced militaries in the world. Israel may be small, but it punches well above its weight, and the "plucky little Israel surrounded by enemies" narrative is designed to draw attention away from Israel's considerable military capabilities. The Iran deal isn't an existential threat to Israeli existence, it's a threat to Israeli interests and influence. Both Israel and Iran are major regional powers in the Middle East, and an increase in Iran's ability to influence other countries in its favor typically comes with a corresponding decrease in the influence of the Middle East's other major powers - including Israel. Iran's dependence on oil is also a significant strategic vulnerability in any potential military conflict, and just as Iran wants to get rid of that, Israel wants them to keep it, so even a wholly peaceful Iranian nuclear program with no possibility for weaponization is unacceptable to Israel (which is part of why the American opposition to nuclear weapons tends to clash with the Israeli opposition to a nuclear program).
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May 16, 2016 20:01
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And, conversely it's Israel that is considered crazy and unpredictable by a number of countries bordering it and in the region as well. Just off the top of my head I can think of 1967 The U.S.S. Liberty is attacked by israeli jets, killing 34, wounding 174. There is pretty damning evidence making it really loving clear they were aware of the ship's identity. What makes it worse is the Liberty was a technical research ship meant more for signal intelligence than combat. Imagine if Iran or north korea were implicated willfully attacking an american vessel. The result certainly wouldn't be daming silence on the matter. 1973 In the course of hostilities with Egypt during the Yom Kippur War, israeli forces occupying the sinai shot down Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114, killing all but 5 passengers. They were surprisingly officially censured by the United States and eventually paid restitution to the victims and survivors. The justification used for downing a civilian airliner was that it may have been on a spying mission to an israeli base. 1982 Operation Peace for The Galilee, Lebanon is invaded on the pretense of disarming the exaggerated military threat of the PLO. Massive bombardments to civilian centers, followed by mass incarcerations of military age male palestinians was completely unreported in major news outlets. As were ad hoc detention centers built for temporarily housing prisoners, the conditions of which were appalling. As well as the treatment of prisoners including, being forced to lick the ground with their tongues, bark like dogs, yell LONG LIVE BEGIN AND SHARON, among more noteable torments. There's no reason whatever to exaggerate anything about the current state of middle eastern politics with words like crazy, rogue, fundamentalist etc. The historical record serves to illustrate plainly.
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May 16, 2016 20:26
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Ultramega posted:1967 The U.S.S. Liberty is attacked by israeli jets, killing 34, wounding 174. There is pretty damning evidence making it really loving clear they were aware of the ship's identity. What makes it worse is the Liberty was a technical research ship meant more for signal intelligence than combat. Imagine if Iran or north korea were implicated willfully attacking an american vessel. The result certainly wouldn't be daming silence on the matter. Since this has already led to at least one derail in one prior incarnation of this thread, I am singling this out: please do not propagate conspiracy theories. Malice was rejected by several US investigations, which all point to negligence, for which the Israeli government paid compensation. As for a comparable Iran-related incident, this comes to mind.
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May 16, 2016 21:16
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Thanks for all for all the info, everyone.Ultramega posted:And, conversely it's Israel that is considered crazy and unpredictable by a number of countries bordering it and in the region as well Well with the kind of stuff I've heard about the current leader in Israel and the rhetoric he employs, stuff like apparently saying Israel should be a state only for Jews, I can see why. A video debate I saw about this BDS movement had one side claiming the current Israeli government is ridiculously hardline and won't be making any of the same concessions it used to under more open-minded leadership. Basically, other countries have a reason to fear this more...forceful Israel. Main Paineframe posted:Although Iran dwarfs them in terms of raw manpower, Israel spends quite a bit more on their military than Iran does, with a much larger defense budget that's supplemented by billions of dollars in aid money and equipment from the largest and most advanced militaries in the world. Israel may be small, but it punches well above its weight, and the "plucky little Israel surrounded by enemies" narrative is designed to draw attention away from Israel's considerable military capabilities. Well yeah, I never bought that. Israel has kind of won too many wars to try and play helpless. Also it has been attached at the hip to the strongest military in the world so that also makes it impossible to take the aforementioned narrative seriously.
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May 16, 2016 21:54
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Since this has already led to at least one derail in one prior incarnation of this thread, I am singling this out: please do not propagate conspiracy theories. Malice was rejected by several US investigations, which all point to negligence, You mean gross negligence. Whether it's considered intentional or not, it still stands as an example of why Israel is considered crazy and unpredictable. Other examples include Deir Yassin, executions of POWs the Lavon Affair (instability of internal Israeli politics - cf The Iron Wall, Avi Shlaim), the threat to use nuclear weapons in 1973, the killing of thousands of civilians in 1982, 'break their bones' 1987-1991, the executions of POWs in 1956, the 1956 war, the executions of hundreds of POWs in 1967 (cf Unit Shaked), the elections of Begin, Shamir, Sharon etc. But let's assume all that causes too many derails to worry about. Stuff that's happening now is worrying enough. The expansion of settlements, the labelling of anyone who opposes Israel as a new Hitler (any Arab/Persian leader, any resistance movement, many regional critics), its bellicosity towards Iraq, Syria and Iran, extrajudicial killings (and not just of teenagers armed with knives/unarmed) etc.
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May 16, 2016 22:06
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You mean gross negligence. Whether it's considered intentional or not, it still stands as an example of why Israel is considered crazy and unpredictable. I'm in Tunis at the moment and I've heard a few people still talk about 1st of october 1985 when Israel bombed the capital, killing some 70 people. The audacity of that attack seems to have left a mark. This is history, however, I think there is more finesse today. Also, Israel's only real enemy in modern times have been totally subjugated by now.
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May 16, 2016 22:19
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You mean gross negligence. Whether it's considered intentional or not, it still stands as an example of why Israel is considered crazy and unpredictable. I was explicit about singling it out because of the conspiratorial aspects of the malice accusation. Gross negligence would be an entirely fair assessment supported by US and Israeli investigations, and sticking to that makes the case stronger, I think. quote:Other examples include Deir Yassin, executions of POWs the Lavon Affair (instability of internal Israeli politics - cf The Iron Wall, Avi Shlaim), the threat to use nuclear weapons in 1973, the killing of thousands of civilians in 1982, 'break their bones' 1987-1991, the executions of POWs in 1956, the 1956 war, the executions of hundreds of POWs in 1967 (cf Unit Shaked), the elections of Begin, Shamir, Sharon etc. I don't want anyone, whether you or Ultramega or whoever, to hesitate to discuss relevant historical precedent. It's just that the conspiratorial stuff opens cans of worms, and they're completely unnecessary because, as you clearly demonstrate, strong arguments can be made by sticking to well-documented facts, and keeping speculation to a minimum. I would, however, say that this thread seems to be most interesting and productive when it discusses news and commentary about current events.
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May 17, 2016 02:24
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I was explicit about singling it out because of the conspiratorial aspects of the malice accusation. Gross negligence would be an entirely fair assessment supported by US and Israeli investigations, and sticking to that makes the case stronger, I think. You can't just accuse someone of peddling conspiracy theory just because you don't agree with someone else's assessment of an event that is in no way resolved one way or another. Also stop using "the government says it is" as your only argument. At least contribute.
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May 17, 2016 12:50
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Herzog of the Zionist Union continues to pursue entry into the government, in spite of the fact that his efforts are unpopular with the general public, Zionist Union voters, Zionist Union and Labor MKs, and even Likud seems lukewarm at best about it despite the fact that it would shore up their precarious one-seat majority. It's a little mystifying to me, honestly. Polling suggests that Zionist Union would get demolished if an election were held today, with Likud and the other government members losing a few seats and the gains going almost overwhelmingly to Yesh Atid. The spat between the defense establishment and the political far right continues. Ya'alon made a statement in which he decried the "extremist minority" which was "trying to influence the image and values of the IDF", warned against "excessive force" and those who "act against the law and our values", asserted that the military should act in accordance with conscience and morality without being misled by the political winds, and encouraged IDF officers to speak out without fear of retaliation even if it means going against the political orthodoxy. In return, the right basically threw a bunch of comments at him accusing him of wanting to be a military dictator and overthrow democracy, and Netanyahu publicly summoned him to a private meeting, after which he and Netanyahu issued a joint statement agreeing that the military was subordinate to the government. In spite of that compromise, no one on either side has forgotten what Ya'alon said, and the political ripples haven't stopped yet. Ironically, the best prospect yet for Gaza's rebuilding seems to be the fact that public health emergencies don't really respect national borders. The continued failure to restore Gaza's water infrastructure, which has been virtually nonfunctional over the last couple of years, didn't just stop at ruining Gaza's water supplies; pollution flowing into the sea is now spreading into Israeli waters and is already thought to be responsible for the shutdown of a desalination plant, and there are worries that aquifers used by Israel could become contaminated as well. http://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-sewage-poisoning-strips-residents-threatening-israel/ quote:Each day, millions of gallons of raw sewage pour into the Gaza Strip’s Mediterranean beachfront, spewing out of a metal pipe and turning miles of once-scenic coastline into a stagnant dead zone.
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May 17, 2016 16:21
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Svartvit posted:You can't just accuse someone of peddling conspiracy theory just because you don't agree with someone else's assessment of an event that is in no way resolved one way or another. Also stop using "the government says it is" as your only argument. At least contribute. By the same reasoning, the US armed forces must be ruled by a murderous hatred of Commonwealth troops, as they've killed more of the latter than any other nation since the 1950's (yes, that includes the Falklands war). Seriously, hearing "friendly fire must be the result of intentional planning" from American soldiers is really loving ludicrous.
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May 18, 2016 03:53
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So, after Bibi yanked Herzog's chain for the past few weeks it seems it was all just a clever ruse by the maestro, Ynet is reporting that Bibi has offered Avigdor Liberman the Ministry of Defense if he'll join the coalition which would mean Ya'alon is getting the boot. It would seem Ya'alon has made a very poor political decision in deciding to stick with the IDF's high command and condemn the actions of Elor Azaria (the executioner).
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May 18, 2016 16:45
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Xander77 posted:The supposed motive behind an intentional attack on a US ship is literally something between "vague nefarious Jewish plans" and "it was a way to improve Israel's diplomatic standing with the United States, somehow". This has started a thread derail hasn't it. I'm sorry. But, the evidence is a little more compelling than "vague nefarious jewish plans" and how does attacking US naval property improve diplomatic standing? Actually, in Fateful Triangle Chomsky asserted the motives behind attacking a technical navy ship was to remove the american presence in the area, namely their signal intelligence capability. This would enable the IDF leadership to engage in territorial acquisition through conquest and other tactics that could only be called war crimes if they were committed by any other armed force in the world. I'll try to dig up the relevant parts and PM them to you if you have that. Do y'all consider the Lavon Affair conspiracy theory drivel or actual history? gently caress it, Al I like you and you're a cool mod and all and I'll probably get the boot for a little while for continuing to talk about it but here are the relevant passages: Ch. 2, part 2.2.2 The Indigenous Threat: Israel as a Strategic Asset Relevant part is page 21(2nd edition, paperback). "Through the 1960s, american intelligence regarded Israel as a barrier to Nasserite pressure on the gulf oil-producing states, a serious matter at the time, and to Russian influence. This conclusion was reinforced by Israel's smashing victory in 1967, when Israel quickly conquered the sinai, gaza, the west bank, and the golan heights, the last, after violating the cease-fire in an operation ordered by defense minister moshe dayan without notifying the prime minister or chief of staff." This section is given footnote 39. The footnote reads: "Ibid, pp. 315-6; Peri, Between Battles and Ballots, p. 80. It has been suggested that the Israeli attack on the U.S. spy ship Liberty was motivated by concern that the U.S. might detect the plans for this attack. See James Ennes, Assault on the Liberty (Random House, New York, 1979). See also Richard K. Smith, U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, June 1978, who describes how "with the greatest ease...the Israeli pilots[and later torpedo boats] butchered the large, slow-moving, and defenseless Liberty," which was clearly and unmistakeably identified, in accordance with "a vital part of Israel's war plan," namely, "to keep foreign powers in the dark" so as to avoid "superpower pressures for a cease-fire before they could seize the territory which they considered necessary for Israel's future security" - a rather charitable interpretation, given the facts about the cease-fire and some questions that might be raised about "security". Ultramega fucked around with this message at 21:42 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 21:16
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Ultramega posted:This has started a thread derail hasn't it. I'm sorry. But, the evidence is a little more compelling than "vague nefarious jewish plans" and how does attacking US naval property improve diplomatic standing? quote:I'll try to dig up the relevant parts and PM them to you if you have that. Bear Retrieval Unit posted:
Xander77 fucked around with this message at 22:23 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 21:42
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 Liberman is gonna be the minister of defense. gently caress this dumb country.
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May 18, 2016 22:13
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Explain to me the obsession over the Liberty and not one peep about the USS Stark.
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May 19, 2016 04:57
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Kim Jong Il posted:Explain to me the obsession over the Liberty and not one peep about the USS Stark. YOu are kidding right? Actually according to your logic the USA should have invaded Israel and forced it to endure a ten year occupation. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 05:40 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 05:06
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Kim Jong Il posted:Explain to me the obsession over the Liberty and not one peep about the USS Stark. Liberals are well-known lovers of Saddam Hussein and smooch portraits of him daily.
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May 19, 2016 05:10
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An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. They fired an unguided rocked at it.
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May 19, 2016 05:16
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LeoMarr posted:An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. What in the actual gently caress is happening
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May 19, 2016 05:20
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LeoMarr posted:An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. Do you have an actual source for this? Googling "MS804" and IDF or Israel don't lead to anything relevant.
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May 19, 2016 05:22
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LeoMarr posted:An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. i loving love this subforum so g*d drat much
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May 19, 2016 05:55
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LeoMarr posted:An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. I heard the Israeli plane nearly collided with 2 Russian jets and a North Korean biplane who were also trying to shoot MS804 down.
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May 19, 2016 06:00
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LeoMarr posted:An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. Our very own Richard Silverstein?
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May 19, 2016 07:57
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LeoMarr posted:An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking. I was not aware that the EgyptAir A320 was nicknamed USS Liberty.
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May 19, 2016 10:03
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Is there any other country in the world where an elected representative would feel at liberty to run with a campaign slogan that goes: "Replacing Bibi, I hosed your mother!" or some variant thereof?  It says "Replacing Bibi, Kibinimat" I read that the most literal understanding is "back to your mom's vagina" though I'm uncertain. Care to elucidate Xander77? It really seems bizarre to me that russian speaking MKs from the Zionist Union haven't said anything against this campaign, ridiculously vulgar.
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May 19, 2016 12:06
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Is there any other country in the world where an elected representative would feel at liberty to run with a campaign slogan that goes: "Replacing Bibi, I hosed your mother!" or some variant thereof? Dimrub posted:And I wouldn’t say it is somehow stronger than cursing in other languages. Comparing with Hebrew, for example, there are also things that are never said in a ‘cultivated’ society or on the TV screen (except some shows that make a point of saying such things). Interestingly enough, there are curses in modern Hebrew, that made their way from Russian. They are as hardcore ‘mat’ as it gets in Russian, but are considered rather mild in Hebrew – such as the ‘kibinimat’, meaning in Hebrew ‘a remote place to be used as destination for annoying people’ (and many people are not even aware of the origins of these curses – they think it’s arabic). Doesn't seem worse to me than "Read my lips: no more Bush" though this wasn't used officially.
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May 19, 2016 12:42
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Yeah but there are well over a million russian speakers in Israel. Would "Vote for me, hijo de puta!" fly in the states? I mean it's not like "mother fucker" is truly obscene in colloquial English but it would still be considered obscene and vulgar in a similar context.
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May 19, 2016 12:46
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...is it negative against Bibi or not? I didn't really get that. Did Bibi gently caress my mother or should I go gently caress my mother if I think replacing Bibi is a good idea 
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May 19, 2016 12:48
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It's neither, it's more of a vulgar exclamation mark. It's really like "Replace Bibi, you son of a bitch!"
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May 19, 2016 12:50
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Crowsbeak posted:YOu are kidding right? Actually according to your logic the USA should have invaded Israel and forced it to endure a ten year occupation. Iraq was a US ally at the time, and would continue to be for a number of years. Again, why no conspiracy there? More people died.
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May 19, 2016 13:27
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Kim Jong Il posted:Iraq was a US ally at the time, and would continue to be for a number of years. Again, why no conspiracy there? More people died. Yeah but we in the end invaded Iraq and executed regime change. So are you suggesting the USA should have done the same to Israel? About the whole Herzog joining Bibi bullshit, wouldn't the resulting disinegration of Zionist Union make the Arab Joint list the main opposition?
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May 19, 2016 16:12
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https://news.vice.com/article/egyptair-says-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-is-missing http://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/733274534292381696/photo/1
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May 19, 2016 16:52
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quote:‘kibinimat’, meaning in Hebrew ‘a remote place to be used as destination for annoying people’ A gulag?
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May 19, 2016 16:55
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LeoMarr posted:https://news.vice.com/article/egyptair-says-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-is-missing Yes, and? This proves an Israeli terror attack how?
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May 19, 2016 17:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Care to elucidate Xander77? Far be it from me to kink-shame. The literal Russian translation is "[back] to your hosed mother" which depending on context might mean "gently caress your mom", "got back to your mom, whom I just hosed" or "your mom who exists in such a singular state of fuckedness I don't even feel the need to specify". "Back to your mothers vagina" is an interpretation that I have not encountered in the past. Of course, loan-phrases generally have only a tenuous connection to their original meaning. As a Russian speaker, the abbreviated Israeli version, which is pronounced differently, is not much more offensive than "go to hell", which is what it generally means in Hebrew parlance. Hope that was an exhaustive and satisfying lecture on this very important subject. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 19:04 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 18:35
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You are the resident Israeli-Russian and are to be called upon when matters require your expertise.
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May 19, 2016 18:47
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If this forum has more then one Israeli Russian speaker I am impressed Though I never realized how many Israelis speak it. It should be the third official language 
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May 19, 2016 20:03
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Xander77 posted:Better than Justice, though that would be a bit too ironic even by Israeli standards.
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May 19, 2016 21:38
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Isn't Avigdor Lieberman the guy whip had that line about African Jews not agreeing that Israel is for the white man or something to that effect?
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May 19, 2016 21:44
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