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Kaza42 posted:JUDGES 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Note the hook for Changelings in the Bible Tymez Demon shard in the STG is named Chariots of Iron.
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May 18, 2016 22:27
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Commissar Budgie posted:All players are required to take "Flaw: Itty Bitty Head, Giant Body" Thankfully there's precedent 
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May 18, 2016 22:29
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NewMars posted:I just want to say that the worst gods possible are the Irish Celtic ones. Why? Because they're the only gods who ever had a war with people and lost. Not only did they lose, mind you, but they were rules lawyered into being stuck underground. Should have sacrificed more hearts and eaten more corn.
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May 18, 2016 22:33
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Kaza42 posted:JUDGES 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Of course, in ancient warfare in the near east there was always the idea that your Gods were fighting while your armies fought and whoever's gods were stronger would win. It's why there's the escapade where the Lord's ark is held captive by Dagon but beheads the statue and visits plague until he's returned, as part of developing the Jewish doctrine that God doesn't lose so much as let the Israelites and people of Judea lose when he's pissed.
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May 18, 2016 22:34
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NewMars posted:I just want to say that the worst gods possible are the Irish Celtic ones. Why? Because they're the only gods who ever had a war with people and lost. Not only did they lose, mind you, but they were rules lawyered into being stuck underground. No, that just means all other cultures were pussies who didn't have it in them to rise up and overthrow the petulant whiny assholes that called themselves their gods.  Waves of gods sounds like it came out of Ireland's habit of getting filled with colonists every few centuries.
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May 18, 2016 22:40
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'm curious, what's the list? I've been away from home for a few days, so sorry for the delay but. Hellblazer, The Invisibles, The Night Watch pentology, House of Leaves, The Dresden Files, True Detective, Dark City, John Dies at the End and This Book is Full of Spiders. Although, reading it again, I have just learned that there is apparently a fifth Night Watch book, so there's that. Daeren posted:Possibly, but I'm fairly sure the book explicitly says something to the effect of "don't pick Odin as your shadow name if you're particularly attached to having both eyes" - that or it was in a dev post somewhere. This brings back memories that Norse God shadow names was gonna be a big plot point in my doomed Mage campaign, I'll need to try rebooting that campaign again now my friend's lives are a little more stable and 2e is out. NewMars posted:I just want to say that the worst gods possible are the Irish Celtic ones. Why? Because they're the only gods who ever had a war with people and lost. Not only did they lose, mind you, but they were rules lawyered into being stuck underground. Yeah, well, most cultures don't have Cu Chulainn running around. 
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May 18, 2016 22:54
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Commissar Budgie posted:After playing through Bloodborne pretty recently, I've been inspired to run a world of darkness game in the same vein, but modern day. My idea was to start the players off as mortal hunters and eventually have them move up the chain and start hunting true fae and become inundated with hedge and Dreamworld poo poo, transitioning into fae-touched and eventually changelings. I'm afraid it would be butchering the setting a little bit though since it's not really Changeling "proper," and trying to think of ways to make the transition be interesting instead of an asspull. Any advice? Running a Mage game with gradual ramp-up like that would kind of own. Start as mortals, bump up to Sleepwalkers, then move to some sort of half-Awakened Gnosis 0 state where you start getting Mage abilities like mana and passive sights. Maybe a 4-dot merit that you can buy up point-by-point that gives you access to certain abilities, culminating in a transition to Gnosis 1 and a single starter rank of a Ruling Arcanum. That would keep everything pretty low-powered for a very long time, since a two-die pool for rank 1 spells would force players to keep things subtle and rely on mortal abilities while still letting them have cool effects (that they can spend Willpower on for that +3 dice if they really need it to go off, like the merit-based powers in the core book). Thematically, you'd have to rejigger Awakening as a gradual process of peeling back the Lie bit by bit instead of a major life event, but I think the setting would be largely intact apart from that. (Then again, I really love the Mage mechanics, so I try to shoehorn them into anything.)
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May 18, 2016 23:05
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Yup! So as a follow up to this query, because it came up in the pub: could you use your magic to increase the Intelligence of your family and have it not Dissonance out, or blow up and give them brain damage if you either a) did it in a way that they didn't notice or b) fluffed it all up as a new prototype nootropic or something. Basically the question was if you wanted to make science advance faster as a Free Council Ars Nova type, what's stopping you going round the world and making leading scientists smarter? Would the spells fail over time or would there be other side effects?
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May 18, 2016 23:57
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Given my recent gaming fascination with superhero tropes, does anybody know if the campaign alternative White Wolf Comics Presents: the Cabal! is any good? I love the idea and own the book it's in (Mage Chronicler's Guide), but I don't know if the rules for Scaling to represent superheroics holds up in play. Also, the character creation section seems a little iffy; the allotted skills and attributes list beyond the Heroic Traits seems a little lackluster.
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May 19, 2016 00:02
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Doodmons posted:So as a follow up to this query, because it came up in the pub: could you use your magic to increase the Intelligence of your family and have it not Dissonance out, or blow up and give them brain damage if you either a) did it in a way that they didn't notice or b) fluffed it all up as a new prototype nootropic or something. Basically the question was if you wanted to make science advance faster as a Free Council Ars Nova type, what's stopping you going round the world and making leading scientists smarter? Would the spells fail over time or would there be other side effects? So your plan is to take people whose understanding of how normal physics and reality work is already key to their jobs, make them smarter, and hope they don't realize that what you've offered them is literally impossible scientifically and couldn't possibly have worked without magic - and, further, to not investigate how you did it?
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May 19, 2016 00:03
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Mors Rattus posted:So your plan is to take people whose understanding of how normal physics and reality work is already key to their jobs, make them smarter, and hope they don't realize that what you've offered them is literally impossible scientifically and couldn't possibly have worked without magic - and, further, to not investigate how you did it? I dunno, a lot of absolutely brilliant people are pretty lacking in knowledge outside of their field - consider the AI fears of Elon Musk, for example. You could probably say "have this injection of proprietary, prototype biodegradable nanomachines" and be in the clear if you stick them with some saline. Maybe even mix in some real but nonfunctional ones in the mix to stop them looking too closely.
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May 19, 2016 00:15
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Granted, but not one of those people is going to talk to someone whose field actually is nanobiology or neurology or any of the various means by which this is flatly impossible?
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May 19, 2016 00:17
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Personally, I was on the side of "this is a bad plan and wouldn't work" but apparently Quiescence and Disbelief have been extensively reworked in 2nd ed and if the Sleepers don't twig there's anything wrong then it's all fine?
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May 19, 2016 01:35
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What happens if you disguise magic as...magic. Like if I tell someone I'm aligning their chakras to focus their intuition and give them special tea made from herbs sacred to the local Native Americans known to improve clear thought, but I'm ACTUALLY casting an ancient Atlantean spell that buffs intelligence, how does that interact with Mage rules?
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May 19, 2016 02:25
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Mover posted:What happens if you disguise magic as...magic. Like if I tell someone I'm aligning their chakras to focus their intuition and give them special tea made from herbs sacred to the local Native Americans known to improve clear thought, but I'm ACTUALLY casting an ancient Atlantean spell that buffs intelligence, how does that interact with Mage rules? Pretty sure that's a form of focus ritual, at least in 1e, and based on my extremely limited knowledge of Yantras, basically that. (Caveat: I haven't actually read anything about Yantras beyond the previews for Mage 2e, but they basically came across as 'this is how YOUR mage casts spells' - a reintroduction of paradigms from Ascension, but not directly tied to your mage's faction.)
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May 19, 2016 02:44
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Mover posted:What happens if you disguise magic as...magic. Like if I tell someone I'm aligning their chakras to focus their intuition and give them special tea made from herbs sacred to the local Native Americans known to improve clear thought, but I'm ACTUALLY casting an ancient Atlantean spell that buffs intelligence, how does that interact with Mage rules? If anyone can actually see supernal magic's effects they'll subject it to Dissonance whether they want to or not and whether they believe in it or not, so if someone drinks your herbal tea and suddenly finds themselves twice as smart it's not going to last long. I assume that the threshold here is about the same as the threshold for covert vs. vulgar magic was in 1E, so if you give someone like a single dot of Int and don't thereby push them past 5 dots total the difference just won't be extreme enough to provoke serious scrutiny or Dissonance. On the other hand, dramatic upgrades will probably undo themselves.
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May 19, 2016 02:50
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My question is what happens when you use magic to regrow your hand, and a sleeper who never knew that you lost your hand to begin with looks at it. Does that still count as witnessing obvious magic?
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May 19, 2016 03:49
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Kurieg posted:To be fair, "They're horrible people and probably to be avoided, but can be useful in certain situations" is probably the closest thing we can get to an in-character condemnation of the line. Out of idle curiosity, what exactly is the deal with B:tP that provoked the summary in the OP? Brief googling reveals mostly some real bland looking poo poo. Where does the Creep Factor arise.
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May 19, 2016 04:11
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Captain Oblivious posted:Out of idle curiosity, what exactly is the deal with B:tP that provoked the summary in the OP? Brief googling reveals mostly some real bland looking poo poo. Where does the Creep Factor arise. Basically, due to poor writing, it ends up being a game where you abuse people to teach them a lesson. It has a lot of real life allegories since it was originally meant as "Minority Revenge Fantasty: The "Not-Getting-It" and ends up unintentionally justifying real life oppression since it portrays minority groups as unrepentant beasts.
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May 19, 2016 04:24
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Covok posted:Basically, due to poor writing, it ends up being a game where you abuse people to teach them a lesson. It has a lot of real life allegories since it was originally meant as "Minority Revenge Fantasty: The "Not-Getting-It" and ends up unintentionally justifying real life oppression since it portrays minority groups as unrepentant beasts.
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May 19, 2016 04:29
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Zereth posted:Don't forget using almost exactly the same justifications some real-world abusers use to say why Beasts doing the things they do is totally okay. Oh yeah, that too.
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May 19, 2016 04:34
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Daeren posted:My question is what happens when you use magic to regrow your hand, and a sleeper who never knew that you lost your hand to begin with looks at it. Does that still count as witnessing obvious magic? I assume that if someone sees it grow in they'll cause Dissonance but if someone just plain sees it they won't. I ALSO assume that a Sleeper who knows you're missing your hand, and sees you with that hand intact, won't cause Dissonance, but I'm less sure about that one.
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May 19, 2016 04:51
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Ferrinus posted:I assume that if someone sees it grow in they'll cause Dissonance but if someone just plain sees it they won't. I ALSO assume that a Sleeper who knows you're missing your hand, and sees you with that hand intact, won't cause Dissonance, but I'm less sure about that one. I guess the question is whether the regrown hand is considered an act of magic in and of itself, e.g. if it's being sustained by magic because otherwise your Pattern will reject it, or if it's the aftereffect of magic that regrows a hand but is otherwise mundane afterwards. If a Sleeper sees you using Space to teleport an rear end in a top hat CEO's car into his private office on the 80th floor, that'll definitely cause Dissonance, but if the CEO steps out for five minutes and comes back to find his Lexus on his desk (and couch (and minibar))), I don't see why it would cause Dissonance even if there's no earthly explanation for how it could have happened.
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May 19, 2016 05:23
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Conceivably, it'd cause a Breaking Point but without causing any Dissonance or paradox because it's too late for the Sleeper's apprehension to come into contact with any actual magic.
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May 19, 2016 05:32
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Does witnessing any supernatural effect provoke a breaking point, or is it just the Lie wrecking people's psyches as it erases their memories? If it's the latter, that's a pretty compelling mechanical way to think of Mages as more monstrous, since their spells actively wreck people that witness them. Not as bad as Werewolves or Vampires, but it's a good way to think of Supernal magic as less of a force of high truth. (The threat of Paradox doesn't really count since it's so trivially easy to deal with by internalizing it.)
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May 19, 2016 05:34
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I think that obvious supernatural events, supernal or otherwise, can be breaking points and probably are for most people, but since 'sins' against Integrity are pretty personalized they aren't universally so. But, witnessing supernal magic in action is universally a breaking point, such that the dread powers that mages channel are legitimately mind-bendingly alien in a way that e.g. Gifts and Disciplines aren't.
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May 19, 2016 05:40
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Covok posted:Basically, due to poor writing, it ends up being a game where you abuse people to teach them a lesson. It has a lot of real life allegories since it was originally meant as "Minority Revenge Fantasty: The "Not-Getting-It" and ends up unintentionally justifying real life oppression since it portrays minority groups as unrepentant beasts. Oh. Oh no. 
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May 19, 2016 07:46
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Captain Oblivious posted:Oh. Yeah, Beast probably isn't the single worst RPG ever made, but that's not for lack of trying.
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May 19, 2016 07:49
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Putting in "Villains can never be more than Always Chaotic Evil MRA stand-ins" and then amending that to "Well some with more than one character trait exist but they're not interesting and if you want to see them go play a different game" wasn't the worst thing but was also pretty dumb. Also, while not quite the fault of the authors, the fanbase's lengthy witch hunt on the profile of a comatose teenage girl to explain why she was wrong and probably Hitler for not meekly allowing a monster into her room to terrorise her was also deeply troubling.
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May 19, 2016 10:37
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spectralent posted:Putting in "Villains can never be more than Always Chaotic Evil MRA stand-ins" and then amending that to "Well some with more than one character trait exist but they're not interesting and if you want to see them go play a different game" wasn't the worst thing but was also pretty dumb. Well, for all we know the girl could've been up to some deeply hosed up poo poo, like drawing whitewashed Steven Universe fanart.
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May 19, 2016 14:04
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spectralent posted:
Missed that part, more info?
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May 19, 2016 15:07
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blastron posted:Running a Mage game with gradual ramp-up like that would kind of own. Start as mortals, bump up to Sleepwalkers, then move to some sort of half-Awakened Gnosis 0 state where you start getting Mage abilities like mana and passive sights. Maybe a 4-dot merit that you can buy up point-by-point that gives you access to certain abilities, culminating in a transition to Gnosis 1 and a single starter rank of a Ruling Arcanum. That would keep everything pretty low-powered for a very long time, since a two-die pool for rank 1 spells would force players to keep things subtle and rely on mortal abilities while still letting them have cool effects (that they can spend Willpower on for that +3 dice if they really need it to go off, like the merit-based powers in the core book). This is a pretty good idea too. I really need to familiarize myself with mage more. Thanks for the tip! spectralent posted:Also, while not quite the fault of the authors, the fanbase's lengthy witch hunt on the profile of a comatose teenage girl to explain why she was wrong and probably Hitler for not meekly allowing a monster into her room to terrorise her was also deeply troubling. elaborate please
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May 19, 2016 15:28
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So in the original draft, one of the sample heroes was a teenaged girl who was attacked by a beast. She chased it out of her house, but it left her in a coma, where she now wanders around in the creepy nightmare beastlands, killing monsters and trying to find her way home. So that left us with two questions: Why is the game _NOT ABOUT PLAYING HER_. Why is she a villain, since the whole thing with heroes in that draft is that they were assholes. She defended herself when she was attacked. So in an effort to justify her being in the wrong people were going through her statblock and backstory with a fine toothed comb to try to prove she was a Mean Girl style bully who deserved to be attacked in her home by a monster. LOOK AT THIS SKILL SPECIALTY, REALLY SUSPICIOUSLY EVIL ISN'T IT. MAYBE SHE IS A CHEERLEADER AND THUS AXIOMATICALLY A JERK. Etc. It was super-gross. In the later draft they changed her to be a nascent beast who just needs a good PC to rip out her soul and have it replaced by a monster's.
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May 19, 2016 15:55
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Also you shouldn't forget the thick, gooey layer of crossover-entitled, smug superiority slathered over the line itself, where the book explicitly says that all the other WoD lines (except Demon because reasons) think Beasts are super great! and special! And if Poochy isn't on screen, characters should be asking, where's Poochy? Meanwhile the mechanical support for even that is largely fumbly "I dunno, build a power?" and the stereotype quotes (I know, I know) are vaguely creepy-smug on a good day (in the revised text) and atrociously missing the point and loving horrible (the quotes about Changelings in particular in the first draft).
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May 19, 2016 16:04
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If you read Changeling and thought "by golly, these True Fae seem to have their act together! Why can't I play them?", Beast is for you.
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May 19, 2016 16:19
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Pope Guilty posted:If you read Changeling and thought "by golly, these True Fae seem to have their act together! Why can't I play them?", Beast is for you.
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May 19, 2016 16:37
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Unrelated: the Mage section on Tokyo is awful. Who decided it was a good idea to spend more time and focus on the local politics of arguing over whether or not the guy who founded the mage community 500 years ago was divine or not or whatever then the null magic zones that threaten to consume the city? To say nothing of the fact that it's stupid to posit that Tokyo had no wizards until 500 years ago and then not even discuss why even slightly.
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May 19, 2016 16:38
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Mors Rattus posted:Unrelated: the Mage section on Tokyo is awful. Who decided it was a good idea to spend more time and focus on the local politics of arguing over whether or not the guy who founded the mage community 500 years ago was divine or not or whatever then the null magic zones that threaten to consume the city? To say nothing of the fact that it's stupid to posit that Tokyo had no wizards until 500 years ago and then not even discuss why even slightly. Wars have been fought, Empires torn asunder and generations of division and hatred have been fostered over the question of whether Jesus-God is just as divine as Father-God or slightly less divine than Father-God. I can totally see people arguing theological points rather than address the imminent danger.
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May 19, 2016 16:55
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Ultimately the theology only matters as much as the actual words of Jesus Christ do in modern politics, ie, not very much. Everybody takes the position they do on their founder that justifies the political agenda they want to forward.
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May 19, 2016 16:58
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Yeah, but it sure as hell ain't what I'm looking for in Mage, not when the other areas have poo poo like 'a city that regularly spawns portals to alternate universes' or 'a city where you can wander around and accidentally end up causing a blackout because you walked a path the shape of the rune for lightning' or 'a city where nonexistent bells that ring and cause the ghosts of the future dead to appear'. And, again, this is the OOC text that is relegating the dead magic zones to a secondary concern compared to Random Asshat Wizard Guy and the Mysterium - again, the group most concerned with magical mysteries - arguing over whether or not he was a Buddha despite his entire lack of any actual Mysteries left behind. Basically: compared to any of the other locations it's bad.
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May 19, 2016 16:59
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