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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:This is not nearly as clear-cut as you're presenting it, it's actually a difficult question. Define "terminal;" what about illnesses with long progressions? When can the patient make this choice? DWD acts have become a big debate among medical ethicists because it's difficult-to-impossible to restrict the choice to "six months to live" and undoubtedly impossible to ensure patient autonomy in that decision (e.g. "I don't want to be a burden"). Many disability advocates have concerns with assisted suicide. I didn't present anything as clear-cut. What is clear is that end-of-life care is woefully underdiscussed--to the point where we are awash in a sea of empty vessels soaking billions of medicare dollars without any agency or awareness whatsoever. Is this humanity? Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I am not arguing about "Preserving life at all costs". Which is one really really weird Ameircan fixation. I don''t even think ti can be blamed on religion because there are plenty of religious countries where they don't have a peculiar obsession with keeping someone hooked up to a whole bunch of tubes just to prolong their lives for two months like we do. Also my Grandma has pretty bad dementia. Still would have not killed her. I'm not a big fan of slippery-slope arguments, nor do I advocate euthanizing the mentally ill. I am advocate for humanity and mercy for the suffering. The edges are murky and difficult to discuss--that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.... ....which is what most Americans do. Ignore it, shuffle grandma off to the nursing facility and visit on holidays. That is not a humane way to treat people. LeeMajors fucked around with this message at 17:24 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 17:20
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LeeMajors posted:I didn't present anything as clear-cut. Not really, and I think we Americans need to radically rethink how we percieve death, because at the moment we see forcing someone to have tubes stuck in them for a extra two months before the next life is somehow being empathetic.
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May 19, 2016 17:22
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Cool thanks for totally not reading my post. Anyway, lets break down what i actually said. Actually my post addressed your issue because you're tying what degree you have to future earnings which is exactly the wrong way to think about college education. The larger point is that instead of addressing the issue in terms of "but they take on so much debt!" Why don't we instead do the thing that has less damage to our society and reduce their debt burden by making college more affordable. Tying college loan availability to a major's "future earning," is a disaster waiting to happen. Telling someone not major in in X because Y have higher earning forecasts is even dumber.
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May 19, 2016 17:23
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Crowsbeak posted:Not really, and I think we Americans need to radically rethink how we percieve death, because at the moment we see forcing someone to have tubes stuck in them for a extra two months before the next life is somehow being empathetic. Well, I think there is little medical literacy among your average American. They think pain management means "complete relief of all pain." They think hospitals are magic buildings that cure all. They believe in miracles and overcoming long odds. They are by-and-large not pragmatists. They shun probability and statistics. And in that way, they tend to believe that grandma with an extended out-of-hospital arrest that managed to soak enough Epi to regain pulses is going to have a good neurological outcome because it happens in the movies--and will hope against hope that this will happen. Our media perpetuates medical miracles. Our culture perpetuates irresponsible optimism (while simultaneously fighting against it, but that's another discussion)... Yeah, we have a really big problem. And we are paying dearly for it in more ways than one.
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May 19, 2016 17:27
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Okay I am just going to do this one time nicely before I go nuclear on it but: the purpose of a liberal arts degree isn't to necessarily make you employed in that particular field! A history major doesn't have to become a historian. A sociology major doesn't have to get a job in sociology. Freddie deBoer (yes, I know he's probably unpopular here due to his hard left politics and sometimes annoying Twitter account) wrote a fantastic essay called "What Thomas Hardy Taught Me] on just this issue. I sent to one of my high school English teachers with whom I've kept in touch, and she assigned it to her class. His education writing is top-notch, in my view. The quite moderate New America Foundation (headed by Anne-Marie Slaughter, a likely Clinton advisor) recently commissioned him to do an essay on university assessment methodologies.
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May 19, 2016 17:27
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LeeMajors posted:I didn't present anything as clear-cut. I'm with you. I'm just suggesting that, in practice, it's going to really difficult to get a system that works the way you want it to. GalacticAcid posted:Freddie deBoer (yes, I know he's probably unpopular here due to his hard left politics and sometimes annoying Twitter account) Freddie deBoer is unpopular here because he can be a racist mansplaining dipshit, not because he has "hard left politics".
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May 19, 2016 17:30
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Why don't we instead do the thing that has less damage to our society and reduce their debt burden by making college more affordable. Ok, and I think we would all love it if college were more affordable, but how would we accomplish that? Given the limitations of the American system, that is. Remember, part of the reason college has gotten as stupidly expensive as it has is due to our society requiring everyone to get a degree for jobs that have no need for one. Changing that mindset is probably the first step to more affordable education.
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May 19, 2016 17:31
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Crowsbeak posted:Not really, and I think we Americans need to radically rethink how we percieve death, because at the moment we see forcing someone to have tubes stuck in them for a extra two months before the next life is somehow being empathetic. There is no afterlife, so unless the sick person doesn't want to be treated, doing what ever it takes is fairly empathic.
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May 19, 2016 17:32
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I'm with you. I'm just suggesting that, in practice, it's going to really difficult to get a system that works the way you want it to. Well he's good at writing about education, regardless of what you think of the rest of his ouevre (a can of worms I don't think it's fruitful to open. People either like him or they don't, and reasonable people do both.)
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May 19, 2016 17:33
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I'm with you. I'm just suggesting that, in practice, it's going to really difficult to get a system that works the way you want it to. I think we could start with providing cheap and comprehensive end-of-life counseling for the chronically ill. Then again, we'd have to start with making healthcare of any sort cheap....which is contrary to the interests of our shareholder overlords.
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May 19, 2016 17:33
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Ok, and I think we would all love it if college were more affordable, but how would we accomplish that? Given the limitations of the American system, that is. Remember, part of the reason college has gotten as stupidly expensive as it has is due to our society requiring everyone to get a degree for jobs that have no need for one. Changing that mindset is probably the first step to more affordable education. No, the reason college has gotten stupidly expensive is because we stopped funding it. I don't know, why not instead of building another Zumwalt class cruiser, we toss that 3.96 billion dollar per unit to the department of education and fund intrest free loans? Or even better give it higher education institutions AND fund interest free loans. The problem is priorities.
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May 19, 2016 17:34
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:No, the reason college has gotten stupidly expensive is because we stopped funding it. I don't know, why not instead of building another Zumwalt class cruiser, we toss that 3.96 billion dollar per unit to the department of education and fund intrest free loans? Or even better give it higher education institutions AND fund interest free loans. It;s like you WANT the Chinese to invade us.
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May 19, 2016 17:35
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:No, the reason college has gotten stupidly expensive is because we stopped funding it. I don't know, why not instead of building another Zumwalt class cruiser, we toss that 3.96 billion dollar per unit to the department of education and fund intrest free loans? Or even better give it higher education institutions AND fund interest free loans. Yeah, if you look at the data, the vast majority of increase above inflation is due to dropping state funding for public universities.
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May 19, 2016 17:38
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:There is no afterlife, so unless the sick person doesn't want to be treated, doing what ever it takes is fairly empathic. Well plenty of Americans do in fact believe in the life in the world to come, or in Reincarnation. But considering Europeans are less religious and they show far more willingness to accept death I do not think having faith in a next life is the problem. I think Lee Majors has it right, its our rather adolescent view of medicine and technology that is at fault, with our weird sense of optimism. Also we should provide end of life counseling that is subsidized might make us all a little less crazy in this country.
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May 19, 2016 17:38
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I mean poo poo, we could fund with small budgetary adjustments a massive investment into our community and technical college system to provide people with a real option if you want less people at four year universities. But seriously the reason education costs have gone up for students is because universities funding has dried up while their demand has gone up, along with their demand for the types of services they provide. How else are they supposed to offset those costs while meeting those needs.
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May 19, 2016 17:39
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I mean poo poo, we could fund with small budgetary adjustments a massive investment into our community and technical college system to provide people with a real option if you want less people at four year universities. Frankly do we need all the services that universities are expected to provide anymore? Could we do with less?
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May 19, 2016 17:41
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is the biggest loving myth around and it would be incredibly helpful for people to stop thinking about the purpose of higher education as some sort of glorified job training program. That is not why you should ever go to college or pick a major. A liberal arts degree isn't "how to do X career, and here are some job skills to do it." It is, instead providing you with a set of skills on how to solve problems from a specific view point of that discipline. And that might be what it says on the tin, but that's not why most people attend. Job prospects and "because it's what you do after high school" are going to be like 85% of that pie chart.
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May 19, 2016 17:41
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:No, the reason college has gotten stupidly expensive is because we stopped funding it. I don't know, why not instead of building another Zumwalt class cruiser, we toss that 3.96 billion dollar per unit to the department of education and fund intrest free loans? Or even better give it higher education institutions AND fund interest free loans. Ah I see, I come from a state that actually funds its universities. That said, that's state funding and not exactly related to building military vessels (that's federal funding). If you're looking for a scapegoat, blame Republican governors for slashing taxes and then being surprised when affordable schooling and state infrastructure go to poo poo (hello Kansas!).
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May 19, 2016 17:41
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theflyingorc posted:Most degrees do not actually provide this, and if that was all they provided, they'd be overpriced. And that's the wrong way to look at it, and it's not something we should encourage. Crowsbeak posted:Frankly do we need all the services that universities are expected to provide anymore? Could we do with less? Could? Probably. Should? gently caress no.
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May 19, 2016 17:43
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/733334457978085376
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May 19, 2016 17:43
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Hello there person who does not understand the purpose of higher education. To put people into eternal, inescapable debt they have no means of fully paying off? That's the thing about loans - they have to be paid back. I agree that liberal arts education is important but paying $40,000 for it is probably not a good idea! BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Actually my post addressed your issue because you're tying what degree you have to future earnings which is exactly the wrong way to think about college education. It's not telling people not to major in X because it has low earning forecasts, it's preventing colleges from putting people in a lot of debt to study X because it is exceedingly unlikely that they will have the means to pay back that debt. It's literally shutting down predatory lending. And, it'll likely help make liberal arts degrees somewhat more affordable. Colleges like to blame rising tuitions solely and entirely on falling state funding, but while that does have some effect, it's not the only factor in the skyrocketing cost of a college education. Another one that gets far less attention is the wide availability of loans, which leads colleges to place less priority on affordability than they should because they expect their students to go into debt to buy their services. It incentivizes some really horrible behavior, such as trying to attract customers by raising prices (to make theor school look like a higher-quality and more prestigious destination for all those student loan dollars) rather than lowering them. Cutting student loan availability for liberal arts degrees forces universities to shift their cost structures along with it, making liberal arts degrees cheaper since they can't assume everyone going for those will have loans. As a market-based solution, it's definitely got problems, but it's superior to no solution at all.
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May 19, 2016 17:43
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Crowsbeak posted:Frankly do we need all the services that universities are expected to provide anymore? Could we do with less? I generally think the expansion of services we provide to students are a good thing, but they come with costs and are more or less built into modern demands from parents. theflyingorc posted:Most degrees do not actually provide this, and if that was all they provided, they'd be overpriced. I think you missed my point. Main Paineframe posted:To put people into eternal, inescapable debt they have no means of fully paying off? That's the thing about loans - they have to be paid back. I agree that liberal arts education is important but paying $40,000 for it is probably not a good idea! THERE'S A WAY loving EASIER WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS INSTEAD OF KILLING LIBERAL ARTS DEGREES WHICH IT WOULD -- MAKE COLLEGE AFFORDABLE BY ELIMINATING THE NEED FOR LARGE LOANS.
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May 19, 2016 17:43
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MariusLecter posted:It;s like you WANT the Chinese to invade us. I got into an argument with someone about how if we divert any money from the military to college funding the Chinese are going to take over the Sea of Japan. The guy is from Taiwan so there's China bitterness there but really that seems like a dumb rear end reason to spend so much of our money on the military. He wouldn't hear that our Navy dwarfs the entire world's let alone China. Also linking future earnings and marketability with college is dumb as hell because even if it wasn't against the point of liberal arts degrees what happens when in four years the market has changed and suddenly what was the hot career is full of people that all wanted to get into it?
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May 19, 2016 17:44
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:But seriously the reason education costs have gone up for students is because universities funding has dried up while their demand has gone up, along with their demand for the types of services they provide. How else are they supposed to offset those costs while meeting those needs. And an increasing capital projects arm race for nonprofits has incentivized them to turn dormitories into hundreds of little palaces for all the little aspiring emperors attending State U. My small, reasonably reputable yet quasi-commuter college is unrecognizable after ten years--and the tuition is 3x what it was when I attended 10 years ago. It is really, really bizarre and it is crippling a generation.
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May 19, 2016 17:45
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Crowsbeak posted:Well plenty of Americans do in fact believe in the life in the world to come, or in Reincarnation. But considering Europeans are less religious and they show far more willingness to accept death I do not think having faith in a next life is the problem. I think Lee Majors has it right, its our rather adolescent view of medicine and technology that is at fault, with our weird sense of optimism. Also we should provide end of life counseling that is subsidized might make us all a little less crazy in this country. The only person to decide what happens with them at the end of their life is themselves. We do not need a loving government funded service to convince people to come around to your toxic religious beliefs any more then we should be wasting money for other toxic religious causes like fighting abortion rights or trying to worm prayer into schools.
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May 19, 2016 17:46
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Ah I see, I come from a state that actually funds its universities. That said, that's state funding and not exactly related to building military vessels (that's federal funding). If you're looking for a scapegoat, blame Republican governors for slashing taxes and then being surprised when affordable schooling and state infrastructure go to poo poo (hello Kansas!). Dude, I work in higher education. I am very aware of how we are funded (or not funded) and federal funding is a big portion of how universities pay their bills both through direct aid and through secondary resources like the availability of grant funding.
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May 19, 2016 17:46
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LeeMajors posted:And an increasing capital projects arm race for nonprofits has incentivized them to turn dormitories into hundreds of little palaces for all the little aspiring emperors attending State U. It's actually bizarre to assume that lovely dorm rooms are some kind of improving experience.
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May 19, 2016 17:46
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Radish posted:I got into an argument with someone about how if we divert any money from the military to college funding the Chinese are going to take over the Sea of Japan. The guy is from Taiwan so there's China bitterness there but really that seems like a dumb rear end reason to spend so much of our money on the military. He wouldn't hear that our Navy dwarfs the entire world's let alone China. If our rock hard navy cock softens even just a little bit, that's all the Chinese need to ratfuck us all!
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May 19, 2016 17:46
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itt people defend trump's "plan" to "make college more affordable" defending trump
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May 19, 2016 17:47
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TheQat posted:itt people defend trump's "plan" to "make college more affordable" Let's treat the symptom instead of the underlying issue. THIS IS GOOD.
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May 19, 2016 17:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Frankly do we need all the services that universities are expected to provide anymore? Could we do with less? "Donald J. Trump raises some points worth discussing" --you
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May 19, 2016 17:48
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Brainiac Five posted:And that's the wrong way to look at it, and it's not something we should encourage. I do have to wonder if the harry potter club could not jsut show its movies in a class room rather than getting university funds to show movies. Also do the Administration need all these leadership retreats? Killer-of-Lawyers posted:The only person to decide what happens with them at the end of their life is themselves. We do not need a loving government funded service to convince people to come around to your toxic religious beliefs any more then we should be wasting money for other toxic religious causes like fighting abortion rights or trying to worm prayer into schools. My religion says nothing about the end of life besides that suicide is wrong. But it would make sense to talk to people at the end to see whether they want to spend 2-4 months barley conscious with tubes stuck in them as more and more expensive treatments that will not work ae used on them to provide them two more months. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:51 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 17:49
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I wasn't on this site at all yesterday so sorry if I missed the boat on this, but I'm very pleased with the DoL's new overtime rules. Raising working-middle class wages going right into the general election season is good news for the Democratic nominee. Obama: pretty good!
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May 19, 2016 17:49
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MariusLecter posted:If our rock hard navy cock softens even just a little bit, that's all the Chinese need to ratfuck us all! this but unironically scarp the f35 instead
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May 19, 2016 17:50
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Cat Army 
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Brainiac Five posted:It's actually bizarre to assume that lovely dorm rooms are some kind of improving experience. No, but turning it into a competitive arms race at the expense of the students themselves is pretty insane also--considering they will be paying for it for the next 20 years of their lives.
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May 19, 2016 17:50
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Crowsbeak posted:I do have to wonder if the harry potter club could not jsut show its movies in a class room rather than getting university funds to show movies. Also do the Administration need all these leadership retreats? Administration costs aren't really the balk of where cost increases are coming from -- and what the gently caress are you talking about on the first one.
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May 19, 2016 17:50
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Brainiac Five posted:And that's the wrong way to look at it, and it's not something we should encourage. Virtually nobody's going to college for "the right reasons", so why justify it?
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May 19, 2016 17:51
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Republicans hold Zika funding hostage to lobbyists' wet dreamsquote:Steal some Ebola funding. Slap a little lipstick on a pesticide bill. Call it a done.
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May 19, 2016 17:51
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theflyingorc posted:What does that have to do with anything being discussed? That's the situation we're in right now, and none of the things being bandied about have anything at all to do with breaking that perception. Instead of surrendering to status quo why not adopt policies that give people real options?
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May 19, 2016 17:52
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Radish posted:I got into an argument with someone about how if we divert any money from the military to college funding the Chinese are going to take over the Sea of Japan. The guy is from Taiwan so there's China bitterness there but really that seems like a dumb rear end reason to spend so much of our money on the military. He wouldn't hear that our Navy dwarfs the entire world's let alone China. It's one of those funny things where I can understand people in Taiwan feeling more on-edge about a Chinese invasion of their island than we do, given that 1, it's their island, and 2, they're right next door to a behemoth. But on the other hand, yeah, come on, guys...Beijing's not dumb. It reminds me of Poland and the US' other Eastern NATO allies. I sympathize, but I also want to tell them all, collectively, "Calm down, Beavis."
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