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I really liked that Terminator movie, don't remember thinking she was bad in it or anything. It's quite fun and plays with the Terminator mythos in clever ways if you're familiar with the franchise.
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May 19, 2016 13:35
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A Strange Aeon posted:What is valonqar? Don't remember that word from the books. It means brother, and eve book prophecy says the valonqar will kill her. She assumes it's tyrion but book readers theorize it will be Jaime. They don't address on the show that I can remember, in the books it's part ofbthebreason she's so paranoid after Joffrey dies. Lots of prophecy comes true in the books but the question becomes how much is self-fulfilling.
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May 19, 2016 13:37
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hanales posted:It means brother, and eve book prophecy says the valonqar will kill her. She assumes it's tyrion but book readers theorize it will be Jaime. More importantly, it means little brother, which is why Cersei assumes it's Tyrion, forgetting that she was borne moments before Jaime
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May 19, 2016 14:04
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A Strange Aeon posted:I really liked that Terminator movie, don't remember thinking she was bad in it or anything. It's quite fun and plays with the Terminator mythos in clever ways if you're familiar with the franchise. Clarke giving a bad reading of "Come with me if you want to live" to Reese: "Oh poo poo that's clever" was not my reaction
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May 19, 2016 14:15
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While Terminator 2 is a great movie in its own right, nothing about any of the Terminator movies has been clever except the way the first one ended, with her getting that picture taken.
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May 19, 2016 14:17
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Elias_Maluco posted:But it might really be intentional. From Grey Worm speech to him last episode, I got the feeling the he was pretty right on how it was actually that masters manipulating Tyrion, and not the other way around. Tyrion is underestimating the situation and the players involved and I think is likely that his awesome plan will backfire soon The masters HAVE to be playing Tyrion otherwise there is no point in Dany showing back with a huge horse army on the back of a dragon. Soothing Vapors posted:iirc the book implies the Freys didn't even particularly plan to kill her they just didn't know what to do with her after she done lost her goddamn mind IIRC Cersei mentions that Littlefinger had pushed hard for that. Walder was probably willing to spare her if things had gone smoothly, but the moment she cut the Frey grandson's throat there was no way she was leaving the wedding alive. VVV Oh crap. Like Jon Snow treating with Mance when Stannis shows up and wrecks everything. But worse. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 14:43 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 14:30
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Blind Melon posted:The masters HAVE to be playing Tyrion otherwise there is no point in Dany showing back with a huge horse army on the back of a dragon. Unless everyone is just starting to get along and she swoops in and slaughters them all, because she's a villain.
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May 19, 2016 14:41
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Nail Rat posted:While Terminator 2 is a great movie in its own right, nothing about any of the Terminator movies has been clever except the way the first one ended, with her getting that picture taken. Arnie pulling a shotgun out of a box of flowers while Guns n Roses' "You Could be Mine" plays in the background was pretty clever.
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May 19, 2016 14:42
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Blind Melon posted:The masters HAVE to be playing Tyrion otherwise there is no point in Dany showing back with a huge horse army on the back of a dragon. True, but the dynamic has changed... that's probably exactly it, but Tyrion is also a little less dumb about the Harpies. Dany has been "Why don't they see this as great? Backwards pricks are pissed I took their slaves away! Kill them all." I wouldn't be surprised if Varys does his thing and finds out who's who. Tyrion maneuvers the unsullied and brings them back to the top of the pyramid and "renegotiates" their deal after they've been backhanded. Then poo poo can go sideways, and Dany shows up fire and brimstone.
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May 19, 2016 14:48
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xwing posted:True, but the dynamic has changed... that's probably exactly it, but Tyrion is also a little less dumb about the Harpies. Dany has been "Why don't they see this as great? Backwards pricks are pissed I took their slaves away! Kill them all." I think (and I hope) that the whole point is that, no matter how well-intentioned (Dany) or clever (Tyrion) they are, its a completely foreign land and they will never succeed in ruling it. Dany messed up, Tyrion is going to mess up too, and then we can only hope that after this they realize they got no business being there and leave Meeren for the meerese and finally pack up and go to Westeros
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May 19, 2016 15:14
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Elias_Maluco posted:I think (and I hope) that the whole point is that, no matter how well-intentioned (Dany) or clever (Tyrion) they are, its a completely foreign land and they will never succeed in ruling it. The problem is that Dany brought a feudal system to Mereen but without the supporting cast of Lords. The pyramid scheme has her on top and everyone else at the bottom with no middle management. Aegon succeeded because he simply adopted the local ruling system already in place and just put himself on top.
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May 19, 2016 15:23
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Nail Rat posted:Unless everyone is just starting to get along and she swoops in and slaughters them all, because she's a villain. This. Dany is going to basically raze all of slavers bay before heading west.
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May 19, 2016 15:58
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Another big problem is Daenerys hates compromise. Throughout ADWD we see she has bought into the various titles she's been given or given herself enough that any compromise she has to make gets her angry. Which culminates in her vision quest where she's told by grass that speaks in Ser Jorah's voice that she's supposed to kill things with her dragons. She's good at conquering things but isn't necessarily capable of being okay with compromising on anything noteworthy. That's a big part of why I think she makes more sense as a villain. A person with special powers worshiped as a god, who thinks she deserves to be queen because it's hers "by rights" even though it isn't because her family violated the social contract and was defeated, who has bought into this idealized notion of herself as a messiah-like figure whose cause is just and thus assumes the cost of her ambitions is worth it, and who thinks that ruling should just be telling everyone else what to do with little consideration for their side of the story, seems like a really dangerous person to have ruling half of the world. All of these qualities will serve well in her battle against the white walkers, but that may be the only thing that saves her from being a full-blown villain, and she may lose the trust of the people of Westeros before she is pointed in that direction.
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May 19, 2016 16:08
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TommyGun85 posted:Arnie pulling a shotgun out of a box of flowers while Guns n Roses' "You Could be Mine" plays in the background was pretty clever. And Arnie glancing at the male lead's junk before saying he's not impressed. I dunno, I just thought the movie was funny and good. Was surprised how poorly it apparently was received. It's so much better than 3 or that horrible one set in the future.
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May 19, 2016 16:18
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The walkers themselves aren't necessarily bad. The night's king is absolutely, though, and is some sort of bastardization of the children's creation. I think Jon is going to kill the night's king, bran is going to take over his place controlling the rest of the white walkers and all the wights, they're going to defeat dany, and then jon is going to have to kill bran because he's becoming night's king 2.0.
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May 19, 2016 16:19
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Beeez posted:Another big problem is Daenerys hates compromise. Really, though? She - is - an activist more than a politician ('conqueror' as opposed to 'ruler' in the series' lingo). And this season certainly has her finally learning not to force herself into being something she is not, and that she should play to her forte instead. But I don't think that entails her necessarily being a villain. More likely, she'll find out - possibly via the Red Priesthood - that she has another cause she should devote herself to. The 'mine by right' => 'evil' option has already been explored in Stannis, and I don't think the show will want to repeat itself that much.
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May 19, 2016 16:41
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Elias_Maluco posted:I think (and I hope) that the whole point is that, no matter how well-intentioned (Dany) or clever (Tyrion) they are, its a completely foreign land and they will never succeed in ruling it. Maybe... realistically that's the case for anywhere. The Targs were rejected in Westeros and the Seven Kingdoms will fight back in their own way. It worked before because Aegon made a new system. What can she do now? I think a more satisfying ending than seeing her in Westros and trashing everyone (or them beating her down) would be for her to make her own way. Stay with the Dothraki and maybe reclaim Valyria.
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May 19, 2016 16:42
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xwing posted:Maybe... realistically that's the case for anywhere. The Targs were rejected in Westeros and the Seven Kingdoms will fight back in their own way. It worked before because Aegon made a new system. What can she do now? I think a more satisfying ending than seeing her in Westros and trashing everyone (or them beating her down) would be for her to make her own way. Stay with the Dothraki and maybe reclaim Valyria. If she never gets to westeros I might feel very inclined to kill GRRM and burn the HBO studios to the ground
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May 19, 2016 16:44
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quote:The Targs were rejected in Westeros Except in Dorne. And its implied there's a number of smaller Houses that would gladly bend the knee again if it brought back peace. The whole Great Northern Conspiracy plotline in the books is to point out that eliminating a ruling family from power doesn't mean you likewise have lost the loyalty of their loyalists. They bide their time and wait. This in the books thematically implies that Dany with a large enough army certainly would attract the support of a lot of Lords. quote:Another big problem is Daenerys hates compromise. Is this really that unreasonable when the people in question are perhaps the worst examples of Human beings in all of history?
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May 19, 2016 17:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:Except in Dorne. And its implied there's a number of smaller Houses that would gladly bend the knee again if it brought back peace. The whole Great Northern Conspiracy plotline in the books is to point out that eliminating a ruling family from power doesn't mean you likewise have lost the loyalty of their loyalists. They bide their time and wait. This in the books thematically implies that Dany with a large enough army certainly would attract the support of a lot of Lords. I would argue that she is also one of the worst human beings. She has gone from city to city, emancipating the citizens, then subjecting them to her rule, destroying their customs while brutally murdering any opposition to her rule. the road to hell is paved with good intentions
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May 19, 2016 17:19
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It might be kind of ok if Dany refused to compromise with terrible people if she had some sort of plan for dealing with them otherwise. Like maybe you conquer Astapor, and then stay there and establish some sort of civil society to replace the model you are tearing down, it might turn out to be a mess but at least you have some kind of plan. Dany mostly just kills the people she doesn't approve of and then hands it off to someone to manage as best they can (not well, because liberated slaves are not always great with governance) and then, surprise, they're all totally hosed. The Unsullied that she brings out of Astapor have improved their situation, but for those left behind it turns into a nightmare. Maybe compromising with slavers is terrible, but its entirely possible she could have achieved a better end for people if she had.
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May 19, 2016 17:36
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quote:The 'mine by right' => 'evil' option has already been explored in Stannis, and I don't think the show will want to repeat itself that much. Which is weird, because Stannis' claim is actually more legitimate than Daenerys' is. Being Queen of anything but Drogo's khalasar was never her duty, it was something she chose to pursue for the sake of her ego. While Stannis, I would argue, is less selfless than he'd like to admit, he is still being dutiful and just to some extent in his pursuit of the crown. Raenir Salazar posted:Is this really that unreasonable when the people in question are perhaps the worst examples of Human beings in all of history? It's worth questioning at the very least, because that's how diplomacy works. I also have my doubts that every free person in Slaver's Bay is equally bad, and if Daenerys actually cares about peace she'll have to deal with people whose morals conflict with her own. In Astapor in the books, she orders her soldiers to spare anyone under twelve years of age and break the chains of any slaves she sees, but to kill all the soldiers along with anyone wearing a tokar. I doubt all the teenagers and anyone wearing a tokar in the city are as bad as the Good Masters, but she isn't particularly concerned with that. They still in live in a culture that is reprehensible by the standards of Daenerys and anyone reading the books/watching the show, but does simply living in that culture completely nullify any personhood they have? Daenerys trying to rule Slaver's Bay peacefully was the only time she's ever sacrificed anything for the sake of peace and she ultimately couldn't stick with it, even her freeing of the slaves was a result of her originally going to buy a slave army and being horrified when she got there at just how brutal the creation of that army was. Her ambition also lead to the destruction of the Lhazareen as a people as they were murdered, raped, and sold into slavery, the horror of which is not really mitigated by the fact that she made the women she personally witnessed getting raped into her personal servants. I'm not saying she or anyone else can't or shouldn't ever fight for any cause or reason, but it's worth at looking at who Daenerys is and what her motives are beyond "well, she has freed slaves and many of her enemies are cartoonishly evil". The Lhazareen were not the worst people in all of history, they were much better than the Dothraki, but Daenerys' ambition for the throne is what put them in the path of Khal Drogo. As much as the show runners view Stannis as a character who is controlled by his ambitions, Daenerys actually fits the bill better in many ways. Beeez fucked around with this message at 17:50 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 17:39
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What bothers me is that Tyrion didn't state the obvious, "We have no fleet, no dragons, no Queen, half the populace hates us, and the Unsullied are dying in the streets like punks. They have three cities worth of mercenaries and all the supplies in the world. The only chance we have is to wait for the Queen to return with her giant fire breathing lizard and the only way we'll survive is if we're not under siege." I know Missandei and Grey Worm are ex-slaves, but Grey Worm is (should be) practically a robot and Missandei's watched Dany compromise and renege on tough slave-related situations more than once. And they more than anyone should understand the lovely situation they're in. And hell, seven years of slavery is terrible but it's more realistic than Dany marching in and out of every city she comes across and all those slaves being liberated forever until she she leaves.
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May 19, 2016 17:42
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MrSlam posted:What bothers me is that Tyrion didn't state the obvious, "We have no fleet, no dragons, no Queen, half the populace hates us, and the Unsullied are dying in the streets like punks. They have three cities worth of mercenaries and all the supplies in the world. The only chance we have is to wait for the Queen to return with her giant fire breathing lizard and the only way we'll survive is if we're not under siege." I'd like to point out that even only 7 years of slavery would be a massive concession by the masters, because the current status quo is, that slavery is again the law in Yunkai and Astapor. The notion that Mereen somehow would be able to reconquer those 2 cities is without Dany is about as foolish as the notion that Dany would feel bound by an agreement negotiated and agreed on with Tyrion, or as she might refer to him, that dwarf I just met moments before I left the city and somehow ended up ruling it, what the gently caress is wrong with everyone else I left in Mereen?
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May 19, 2016 18:04
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MrSlam posted:What bothers me is that Tyrion didn't state the obvious, "We have no fleet, no dragons, no Queen, half the populace hates us, and the Unsullied are dying in the streets like punks. They have three cities worth of mercenaries and all the supplies in the world. The only chance we have is to wait for the Queen to return with her giant fire breathing lizard and the only way we'll survive is if we're not under siege." Yeah, but question is also: the masters probably also realize the dire situation they are in Meeren. So what reason they would have to accept the 7 years deal? Tyrion tried to appeal to their self-interest, but they dont want to change. Slavery might not be the most efficient system, but is good enough for those who are on top of it. At most they would pretend to accept it while preparing to storm Meeren and kick those strangers out of slaver's bay for good. There is really no solution for the "meerenese knot", in both books or show, then to move on to Westeros and leave the city to the locals, and hope for the best. Or stay in slaver's bay forever trying to force a complete system change, which would probably involve conquering all cities (again) and this time actually killing all the ruling elite And since her plan is ultimately getting the iron throne, there is no option, she is just wasting her time there and making everything worst Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 18:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:This in the books thematically implies that Dany with a large enough army certainly would attract the support of a lot of Lords. In so much as the Targs aren't Lord Whatever that they hate. An outsider is a benefit in some situations for sure. I'm not sure the North, Iron Islands, or Lannisters would bend a knee. What's the scenario that works? Too many families are strung out. After the White Walkers get south is she supposed to just steam roll through? That feels kind of lame. I do think compromise is part of her journey to being a leader. I'd like to see Jon and whoever is left beat the White Walkers (With Bran and/or Sam's help), the south tear themselves to shreds and they all tell Dany to piss off if she ever does get there (how?). Iron Throne no more, and I don't see a scenario where she even wants the throne other than being all pissy about it being her birthright.
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May 19, 2016 18:08
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Didn't D&D even say they cribbed some of Tyrion's logic/plans for ending slavery from pre-war Abraham Lincoln? Just like all gradualist plans to contain, slowly eliminate or economically compensate for eliminating slavery failed in the Antibellum South, there's no way the GOT slavers will go along with Tyrion's plans. It's not about money, it's about the power from owning human beings. They'll pretend to listen to him, do something comically evil, seige the city, and then get their armies torched by Dany.
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May 19, 2016 18:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:Is this really that unreasonable when the people in question are perhaps the worst examples of Human beings in all of history? Yes, since the opposite is incompetent/unprepared leaders or a power vacuum that leads to anarchy and mob rule. This is literally what happened in Iraq when the US disbanded the Iraqi military and banned Ba'ath party members from government, it led to the the insurgency in Iraq and the creation of ISIS. e: Also, some masters were masters because they were born into it, like some slaves had been slaves because thy were born into slavery. It doesn't make them right, but it doesn't necessarily make them bad people either (like Hidzar's dad). Narmi fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 18:13
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I don't think HBO has the balls to make Dany the villain. Whether or not GRRM does in the books won't matter. She's been a feminist gurl power icon for years and there would be a massive tumblr outrage if they villainize her.
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May 19, 2016 18:47
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drunken officeparty posted:I don't think HBO has the balls to make Dany the villain. Whether or not GRRM does in the books won't matter. She's been a feminist gurl power icon for years and there would be a massive tumblr outrage if they villainize her. HBO doesnt strike me as a company that gives too much of a poo poo. And if she does end up being "evil fire" in "a song of ice and fire", it would be kind of hard to rewite it for the show without completely altering the fundamental story.
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May 19, 2016 18:50
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If they do ever villainize her I'm sure they'll show it as epileptic fits of rage and hallucinations brought on by Mad King disease, instead of the slow steady moral degredation her situation's thrust upon her.
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May 19, 2016 18:53
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One interesting fact I noticed yesterday was that the camera angle changed between the s1 and s5 fire scene. While the camera looks down on Dany in s1 it now looks up to her in s5, which probably is supposed to further underline how much more awesome she is now.
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May 19, 2016 18:55
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The camerawork/lighting/acting definitely gave me more of an "Im losing it" vibe than an "Im awesome" one.
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May 19, 2016 18:58
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Spoilers via Polish Jonathan Pryce interview:quote:in this interview jonathan pryce says that when cersei's trial happens.... high sparrow and everyone else is waiting in the sept of baelor for cersei to show up. and the high sparrow is very certain for cersei to show up and so is everyone else. no one expects that something very unpleasant is about to happen. http://www.kawerna.pl/biblioteka/wywiady/item/12746-wywiad-z-jonathanem-prycem-serialowym-wielkim-wroblem.html someone on reddit says: quote:i'm guessing in this scene, it will be like the red wedding again. the doors to the sept of baelor be locked and on cersei's orders qyburn will burn the entire place with wildfire. bye bye high sparrow and tyrells
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May 19, 2016 18:59
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Why is she having.a trial if she already confessed and did the walk of shame as punishment?
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May 19, 2016 19:01
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drunken officeparty posted:Why is she having.a trial if she already confessed and did the walk of shame as punishment? the walk of shame/confession were not her 'trial,' but more of a prerequisite for bail
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May 19, 2016 19:02
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Sounds like it might be Ser Robert Strong's big moment.
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May 19, 2016 19:06
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Is it truly a mystery in the books whether zombie mountain is actually the mountain? Did the show just make it clear because you can't really hide that in a visual medium the same with Barristan? Also who is running Casterly Rock right now? I think it would be Kevan, but he is in Kings Landing doing whatever it is he does. He's the hand of the king I think? Idk who the hand is right now. drunken officeparty fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 19:08
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drunken officeparty posted:Is it truly a mystery in the books whether zombie mountain is actually the mountain? Did the show just make it clear because you can't really hide that in a visual medium? the same with Barristan? It's pretty explicit to the reader
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May 19, 2016 19:08
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RENEGADE CUCKSKY posted:Spoilers via Polish Jonathan Pryce interview: That sounds fun though I really wonder wtf Cersei is gonna do after that, the expectation is for Dorne to take on King's Landing at some point, I guess after Cersei annihilates the two major fighting forces in the city it will be pretty easy for the Dornish forces to take the city. I expect fAegon and the golden company to take King's Landing in the books as well which would kinda sync the two versions (especially if Dorne allies with fAegon). It would also be poetically consistent with Tyrion's "curse", let Cersei's moment of triumph lead to her downfall, joy to ashes, etc.
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May 19, 2016 19:09
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