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UnknownMercenary posted:Wasn't this what it was like originally? I don't remember the guns doing all that much but the grenades killed me back when they didn't have any indicators on them and did truckloads of damage. Hans' frag grenades still do a truckload of damage, they're just visible to the human eye now. Maybe they did even more before, but the damage feels reasonable right now. I mean, the melee damage doesn't, of course. I feel like Tripwire should just remove Hans' melee in its current form and replace it with one devastating uppercut. No chance for combos, the damage melee does right now would be fine if it's just the one punch, and it does a metric fuckload of knockback. Hans' attacks all seem to be based around splitting up the players except for the melee; the grenades often land in spots that force players to either willingly take damage to stay together or fan out to avoid damage, and the guns (theoretically) are good for whittling down isolated players low on health. Reworking Hans' melee to have it forcibly split up the players sounds like a decent way to prevent melee combo instakills and keep his boss strategy consistent (the team needs to struggle to stay together or be whittled down) rather than how it currently is (the team needs to struggle to stay together or OOPS UR DED LOL). Also please please please take another page out of Counter-Strike's handbook and remove Hans while he is being reworked. I know maps and bosses aren't the same thing but CS:GO will take maps out of rotation when a newer version of the map is in active development. Also, no one will be mad if you forget to ever add Hans back in.
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May 19, 2016 01:13
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I fought against Hans on a low gravity server and all of his knockbacks being what felt like 500% more effective was the most fun I've ever had against him.
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May 19, 2016 01:29
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Propaganda Hour posted:Forgive me if I'm misremembering, but I think Human Revolution was the DE with shopped out bosses. Yeah, you're right. DatonKallandor posted:The number 1 thing that the Doom devs understood that bad FPS devs don't is that enemy attacks need to be avoidable. Are they ranged attacks? They shouldn't be hitscan (and if they are hit-scan they need to be trivial damage or very telegraphed and easily avoided). Are they extremely high damage attacks (yes, even melee)? They need to be announced and extra-dodgable - they should never be on a platform that moves faster than the player - because that's stupid, see also Hans. It's ok for the player to have hitscan gently caress-you-over attacks, but not for the enemies. Hell, Husks and I must be one of the crazy person that thinks Sirens are good enemies. The problem with most enemies in the game is that they are pretty much all melee focused, and it's understandably hard to do when there's tons of enemies on screen at once. But that doesn't make having a lock-on guaranteed hit one-shot melee attack acceptable, though.
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May 19, 2016 05:00
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I think Sirens are good enemies too, just very one-dimensional. But they do their job, they tell the players they are doing their job and they're not one-shotting people while doing it.
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May 19, 2016 17:57
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Propaganda Hour posted:I fought against Hans on a low gravity server and all of his knockbacks being what felt like 500% more effective was the most fun I've ever had against him. Holy poo poo, how do i find a low Grav server. As a support player I miss KF Moonbase so much. I think they removed the knockback on the Hunting Shotgun, though 
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May 19, 2016 20:10
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Upcoming Demo balance changes are looking decent: http://steamcommunity.com/games/232090/announcements/detail/939377138561870913 Questioner, for the love of god, can you guys please remove the Siren resistance talent and make it a passive, level-scaling perk benefit, with something like "your explosives aren't destroyed by Sirens but only do X% damage within a Siren's scream area," starting at 25% and scaling up to 100% at 25 (so 3% per level). It's incredibly dumb to have it as a talent because it is always an automatic pick, because without it a single Siren makes you completely unable to do any damage. e; while I'm at it, the other level 15 talent is also really bad. It's incredibly weak for a level 15 talent and penalises you with no option to turn it off. It should just be a flat +X% AoE size increase (unless the damage reduction only affects the extra AoE size in which case disregard, it's fine). Also, "25% chance to do double damage on a direct hit" is not particularly fun. Just make direct hits do 25% more damage at all times, instead. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 21:58 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 21:43
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Give me back my C4, assholes
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May 20, 2016 21:56
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Give me back my C4, assholes I'm presuming Demo still gets C4 as a T2 weapon, and just has two. I still think C4 should be the Demo's grenade.
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May 20, 2016 21:57
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In general sirens should not interfere with explosives at all, it's really dumb and makes nades too expensive for what they actually do. HX25 is still a garbage weapon and the RPG is becoming a trap item compared to the grenade launcher. Demo having to take multiple talents to be good at fighting big zeds (and only then with a direct hit) = lol. A lot of this could be solved by normalizing demo damage/giving them automatic weapons and thereby not making them situationally broken or worthless. Tripwire has apparently not heard of any advancements in launcher design in the last century or so. Hopefully they will also work on how janky ALL the demo weapons are.
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May 20, 2016 22:03
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I mean I get the reasoning behind Siren Resistance - other then that, you might think that Siren is a no-problem. And it will become a no-problem once a demo gets his hands on a M79. The thing is, you are WRONG. A Siren is always a problem unless it's taken care of fast. Screen shake, unavoidable AoE damage and grenade disable can make one Siren in the mix a matter of life and death for a team. So I see no problem with having someone on Siren watch duty, especially since Tripwire decided that this apparently isn't the job of the Commando with the bullshit bullet resistant steel cage on her body. But it's all beside the point. The real point is that now, and after this fix a single Siren will completely negate a player for fourteen levels, and the very existance of Sirens in game invalidates the Area Of Effect perk because noone will pick it. This "fix" only solidifies the position of the Siren as the anti-fun equation for anyone who hasn't yet leveled Demo up to lvl 15. And it's not like playing Demo is fun anyway, unless the HX25 is fixed to actually detonate its pellets individually, getting good weapons is a chore. A less of a chore now that the M79 is T2 (making it potentially the most cost-effective weapon in the game), but still a chore.
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May 20, 2016 22:38
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Although  is a nice and welcome change to Demo, but still I'd trade a passive Supplier for Siren Resistance.
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May 20, 2016 22:49
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Lemon-Lime posted:I'm presuming Demo still gets C4 as a T2 weapon, and just has two. Okay. That's a good and reasonable interpretation. But these changes are still pretty lackluster, I think. Since I'm not phoneposting now, I'll go into more detail. quote:Level 5: Tactical reload is the obvious choice. Mind you, I'm not complaining, but can developers stop doing this thing where they just slap on a small damage bonus and call it a day, without considering the substantive impact of the change? As far as I can see, it doesn't look like an extra 10% damage will make much of a difference in terms of decreasing the amount of ammo you need to expend to put down an enemy. The Tactical Reload thing is good, though. Demo people get stuck reloading all the time, so this is a good choice. But the alternative is fairly stupid. quote:Level 10: Again, the 10% damage buff probably won't make much of a difference. The main time you ought to care about impact damage is when you're launching a rocket into a Scrake's face. Impact damage on the RPG is 150. 4X multiplier against a Scrake's head, so 600 damage. Now, at level 25, Demos get a 25% damage boost to demo weapons. Let's assume that applies to impact damage, too. That would mean that we're up to 750 damage. On Suicidal/HoE, Scrakes have 690-1875 head health, depending on player count. In basically all cases, expect Scrakes to have at least 900 head health. Congratulations, your 10% damage boost to impact damage changes number of rockets to take a Scrake's head off from 2, to... oh, 2. I see. And obviously that remains the case if we factor out the 25% damage boost. And that's a best-case scenario. There seems to be precisely one instance in which this perk is an asset: 5-man Suicidal Scrakes will take 2 RPGs to the face, instead of 3. How exciting. Or, since those particular Scrakes have 1518 head health, I'll just launch two RPGs and finish with my 9mm. Or, gently caress it, I'll take a Crossbow, stun the Scrake, and finish it with the Magnum. Note: This doesn't help with Pounds, either. Scrakes get a unique multiplier to RPG impact damage, and Pounds do not. Still, Pounds have comparable head health, so they'll take 4X as many rockets to the face as a Scrake. Just blow them up. Similar note: the M79 also has 150 impact damage, but the impact damage multiplier on Scrakes appears to apply solely to rockets. Unless the new T3 weapon changes that pattern, my arguments here should continue to hold. tl;dr: Direct Hit blows, take the extra ammo. Extra ammo will always be useful. quote:Level 15: What's that? Everyone is still going to take Siren Resistance, since Sirens are loving everywhere and will utterly neutralize Demo? Weird! The AoE thing is bad for reasons I'll state later: Tripwire is reducing AoE to make this skill "worthwhile." Protip: don't bother. If Siren Resistance weren't so critical, this might not be terrible, since... Actually, no wait, it would continue to suck. 25-Demo does just shy of 1000 damage with the RPG. With this perk, that damage goes down to ~468 at point of impact. Congratulations, you're no longer one-shotting Husks, in exchange for maybe getting an extra clot or two, which literally any class can dispatch trivially. quote:Level 20: This is probably the best set of perks, but I'm thinking Concussive Force is the optimal choice. If I'm reading things correctly, the RPG (and maybe other weapons) would reliably stun/knock-down Scrakes and Pounds. Critical Hit seems pointless. I have no idea how critical hits work with explosions (needless to say, it seemed weird when I was messing around with it; you'd think planting C4 on a Pound's head would blow the head off, but it doesn't). And a 25% chance that you'll double your damage doesn't mean much. Great, one out of 4 times, you might one-shot a Scrake to the head, if you've got a sufficiently low number of players on a sufficiently low difficulty. Not reliable, don't bother. I'll take my consistent knockdown/stun power increase, thanks. quote:Level 25: Maybe there's an actual choice now, since Demo often gets stuck with empty weapons in Zed Time. Of course, I don't know if people care about shooting in Zed Time if they don't have nuke. Your weapons will be just as effective, more or less. vOv quote:To support this new tree, several of the demo weapons have had their AOE range adjusted down slightly (with the RPG’s brought down the most). This helps the two trees stay distinct and lets the demo better fit one of the two roles. Bad. Really just bad. "We couldn't think of a way to make new skills appealing, so we're taking away something you already had to make the choice more competitive." quote:A massive change that we’ve also done is to bring the m79 down to a Tier 2 weapon... HX25 - Slightly faster reload Totally misses the point on what a lot of people felt was bad about demo: the utter-poo poo tier one weapon. Congratulations, Tripwire, you've missed the boat, yet again. It's still substantially more convenient and fun to start as Gunslinger/Berserker, run through wave 2 or 3 with your starting weaponry, and then transition over to high-tier demo weapons. Making the M79 a T2 weapon doesn't change the fact that T1 blows. If the M79 sees reduction in stats as well (unstated, might not happen), then there would really be no reason whatsoever to deviate from this particular strategy. OneThousandMonkeys posted:RPG is becoming a trap item compared to the grenade launcher. Disagree on this. The RPG is a solid weapon presently. If they gently caress it up by reducing its explosion radius, though, you may have a point. Really, it's not like Demo is in dire shape presently. It's T1 sucks, and it suffers from one-round weapons with long reloads. Fix those issues, and you've solved most of the problem. Putting all this effort into a comprehensive redesign is a monstrous waste of time, and would be better used on something like Hans.
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May 20, 2016 23:04
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Kikas is totally on point here; siren resistance at 15 is not an option. Without that perk - which means by definition anyone below level 15 who can't even take it, I might add - an extremely common mid-tier zed will completely shut down an entire class. No other class has that hard of a counter. Demo isn't powerful enough to deserve it. And worse, TWI is doubling down on it: Reducing base demo weapon AOE in the attempts at forcing a perk choice at 15 is effectively straight-up a nerf of demo AOE, because "smaller explosions" against "no explosions" isn't even a choice when 100% of your weapons are explosions. So now the playerbase's reward for waiting for 9 months or however long for TWI to loving fix demo is ...demo getting nerfed. this'd be hilarious if it weren't so sad e: solid argument from LM, too. Psion fucked around with this message at 23:14 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 23:08
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And one more thing that comes to mind: whose job exactly is to kill Sirens? The Firebug? I mean he's the only one (aside from Demo lol) who can hit her with a weapon reliably - every other class is bullet based and the scrawny bitch has her loving bulletproof metal cage. Anyone will have trouble dealing with her at mid range, cause even Support can get hosed by the spreadRNG at ranges other than point blank. The Berserker? Yeah he gets Sonic Resistance and the extra HP but it can't be the class to do all. More power to Berserker for being able to kill Sirens, but why have the other classes? Why have Berserker be the "pick this to win" class, why can't ALL the classes be like that?
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May 20, 2016 23:21
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Good points all around but if the M79 weighs less and is cheaper and otherwise left mostly intact, well shoot. Demo kind of stops sucking as hard. Current way you play Demo you struggle for the first 1-5 or so waves, unless you're lucky and get a weapon pickup, have fun with the M79 for a round or two, and then get to RPG it up and take out Fleshpounds. Getting the M79 earlier in general makes him a lot better as a class especially with the huge ammo buffs. Still not ideal but won't be AS trash. Nerfing AOE is certainly curious though. Like. What? Why even play an explodey class if the explosions are small?
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May 20, 2016 23:24
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lmbo, I went to post my thoughts on the Tripwire forums, and am now stuck waiting for someone to approve my post for public viewing.Kikas posted:And one more thing that comes to mind: whose job exactly is to kill Sirens? Gunslinger. Recently, I've been finding Gunslinger a really excellent all-around class, and all I need to do is carry one Magnum. At max level, each shot is 225 damage with the flat +20% damage skill. With a 1.1X multiplier to head damage (for the Siren), I believe the Magnum can one-shot Sirens up through 6-man HoE. Same for Husks, too, it looks like. My guess is that Sharpshooter will be able to do something similar, whenever Tripwire manages to get it out the door (how many months are we at, now?).
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May 20, 2016 23:29
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To me the fundamental choice between Larger Explosions and More Single Target Damage is just so lovely and unrewarding. Both of them are essentially arguments on ammo efficiency and, once somebody puzzles out the math, one will always be better. It reminds me of old World of Warcraft talents that I'm sure some dev team spent months agonizing over only to have some 12 year old toss through excel and go "pick that one, always." It's uncreative design and it shows immediately. The only good & interesting thing I see in that list is the launcher being T2 which is literally what it was in Killing Floor 1 so I guess good job spending like two years reinventing that wheel.
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May 21, 2016 00:34
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Okay let's take a look, here.quote:Damage - Explosives do 10% more damage This is a pretty decent selection. I personally would go for 10% more damage because demo's reload times were never an issue in my opinion, and your standard end-game loadout (should) only have one demo weapon you can even reload unless you really hate yourself and are actually using the grenade pistol. unless Tripwire feels like doing the right thing and making a C4/Grenade Launcher/Rocket Launcher loadout possible. Demo is already great at taking down big zeds, but the ability to do it even better is very appreciated. I would just rank Tactical Reload as an option for players who aren't particularly wonderful as Demo. quote:Direct hit - Explosives do 10% more impact damage to the target they hit This is another interesting choice, and I would once again personally opt for more damage, granted I've adjusted to just finding situations where I would use demo weapons very selectively. Although I would find three extra C4s and rockets a very appealing option, demo impact damage on rockets is downright huge, especially on Scrakes, so 10% boost makes a massive number even more gigantic and that's just too great to pass up, especially when it can give you just enough oomph to solo lone Suicidal and Hell on Earth Fleshpounds. quote:Siren Resistance - Explosives avoid the siren scream destruction Siren Resistance is still a non-choice. I would only even consider Area of Effect if it boosted damage 50% along with increasing the size, and even then I'd still probably pick Siren Resistance. quote:Critical Hit - 25% chance that your direct hit to a critical zone will do 2X damage Critical Hit sounds great, until you read that it's a 1/4 chance. You NEED the bonus given by Concussive Force to solo Scrakes without trouble 100% of the time because it knocks them on the ground, and Critical Hit gives you the ability solo them 25% of the time instead, on top of the fact that you're gimping yourself because Concussive Force lets you stunlock Fleshpounds. They couldn't make Critical Hit look like a worse skill unless they actively tried to. Edit: I also just noticed that Concussive Force actually boosts knockback to 50% instead of 30% like it does now, so there's even less reason to pick the alternative. quote:Nuke - Explosives dish out massive radiation damage in zed time and poison zeds Nuke is just too delicious to pass up. If you're a complete loser and is somehow never reloaded during Zed time, you can still just slap a C4 down and use it to activate nuke. You don't even need to do that either, since you aren't affected by splash damage when an explosive detonates by a nuke, so you can just swap to C4 and blow it up right in your face and it'll work. See, the biggest problem demo has as a class is that, well, just imagine a level 0 support compared to a level 25. A level 25 support can just reload faster, maybe carry another shotgun, give ammo, and do some more damage. Now compared that to the difference between a level 0 and a level 25 demo, where the level 0 can't stunlock Fleshpounds, cannot kill a Siren while she's screaming, will get destroyed by Scrakes, and doesn't have an AOE attack in Zed time that can kill literally anything that stands in it for more than 3 seconds. It needs more innate skills that make it good and perks that compliment specific playstyles, instead of just perks that either make it good if you have them or don't if you don't. Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 01:22 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 01:02
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did you not read the math on half those choices being meaningless? because like ... if the math remains as-is, you're picking legit useless skills and saying "nope sounds good!"
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May 21, 2016 01:21
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Psion posted:did you not read the math on half those choices being meaningless? because like ... if the math remains as-is, you're picking legit useless skills and saying "nope sounds good!" You mean just the math done on Scrakes in a very specific scenario of 5-man Suicidal that also assumes you're somehow fighting by yourself despite being in 5-man Suicidal? Yeah.
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May 21, 2016 01:25
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The practice of putting the big must-have talent at level 15 should definitely not be a thing when it takes so long to reach level 15. I'm not sure who thought making classes unfun bullshit to play for 14 levels was a good idea.
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May 21, 2016 01:29
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Theta Zero posted:You mean just the math done on Scrakes in a very specific scenario of 5-man Suicidal that also assumes you're somehow fighting by yourself despite being in 5-man Suicidal? Yeah. No, you're misreading it. That's the only scenario where it has an effect. In every other situation that is not that one, very specific scenario, it's meaningless. So as you correctly note, it's probably unusual for a demo to be in a 5-player suicidal and soloing a scrake. Meaning that one, very specific, very tiny edge case is the only situation where 10% changes anything appreciable for demo. And you'd still take it? Psion fucked around with this message at 01:31 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 01:29
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Psion posted:No, you're misreading it. That's the only scenario where it has an effect. In every other situation that is not that one, very specific scenario, it's meaningless. But that's not the only scenario. You're going to have other people shooting with you, you could miss your second rocket, or be playing on a harder difficulty where you're going to have to take out a Scrake's head with something else. Rockets also still have impact damage when they explode, as well. So you can use them to do a some more damage to Fleshpounds. I've never had much difficulty conserving ammo as demo, but I've been in situations where I needed to use something besides another RPG7 shot to take out a Scrake's head because I had no other choice, be it a teammate or my own backup weapons. As such, I would appreciate anything that made it easier. That being said, that's why I clarified that I would select 10% more impact damage just off of personal preference even though extra ammo looked like a nice option as well.
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May 21, 2016 01:40
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Theta Zero posted:This is a pretty decent selection. I personally would go for 10% more damage because demo's reload times were never an issue in my opinion, and your standard end-game loadout (should) only have one demo weapon you can even reload unless you really hate yourself and are actually using the grenade pistol. unless Tripwire feels like doing the right thing and making a C4/Grenade Launcher/Rocket Launcher loadout possible. Demo is already great at taking down big zeds, but the ability to do it even better is very appreciated. I would just rank Tactical Reload as an option for players who aren't particularly wonderful as Demo. Nope. Like I said earlier, an extra 10% damage doesn't generally mean much. I decided to go an rerun a few numbers*, though, just to make sure. I might be missing edge cases, but generally speaking, my assertion holds. For Sirens and Husks, it literally does not matter, at all. As long as you're level 25, regardless of whether or not you take the extra damage, you will almost always require the same amount of ammo to kill an enemy. For Sirens, regardless of player number or difficulty, it will always take one rocket or grenade. Sirens are easy. Husks are slightly more variable, but again, 10% damage generally means nothing. At the low end, you need 3 grenades, or 1 rocket. At the high end, 4 grenades, or 2 rockets. Regardless of whether or not you take the extra damage. Am I clear on this point? It's more or less the same story for Scrakes and Pounds. I'm not analyzing every case (too lazy to do 12 settings for each Zed, sorry). With the M79 and the damage skill, you'd save one grenade per Scrake. At the mid-level case, though, you'd be going from 16 grenades to 15 grenades, so you may as well not bother. More efficient approaches exist. With the RPG, I only see a saving of one rocket (7 down to 6) at the high end. At the low and mid levels, it's 2 and 5 rockets, respectively, regardless of damage perk or not. Same with Pounds, really. You might save a grenade or two here and there, but if it takes 18 grenades to kill the Pound, well. It's not worth it. Not by a long shot. With rockets, I see no variability at my levels of analysis. 2/kill at the low bound, 4/kill at the mid bound, 6/kill at the high bound, regardless of perk choice. * Clarification: I ran two cases for Sirens and Husks, three for Scrakes and Pounds. For the first group, I did 1-man Suicidal and 6-man HoE. For the second group, 1-man Suicidal, 5-man Suicidal, and 6-man HoE. Should do a reasonably good job of capturing the variability, but if you want to do a finer-grain analysis, be my guest. Scrakes and Pounds would be the targets of interest, since they have health values than range from ~1500 to ~8100. quote:This is another interesting choice, and I would once again personally opt for more damage, granted I've adjusted to just finding situations where I would use demo weapons very selectively. Although I would find three extra C4s and rockets a very appealing option, demo impact damage on rockets is downright huge, especially on Scrakes, so 10% boost makes a massive number even more gigantic and that's just too great to pass up, especially when it can give you just enough oomph to solo lone Suicidal and Hell on Earth Fleshpounds. No, it doesn't. Did you not read my discussion or something? Theta Zero posted:But that's not the only scenario. You're going to have other people shooting with you, you could miss your second rocket, or be playing on a harder difficulty where you're going to have to take out a Scrake's head with something else. Rockets also still have impact damage when they explode, as well. So you can use them to do a some more damage to Fleshpounds. You're obscuring the discussion by claiming we can't effectively analyze all cases, and then assume that it must mean that the skill will be valuable. Given the range of values I've shown, it seems reasonably to conclude that the skill will only be valuable in a few scenarios, rather than generally. The burden is on you to demonstrate otherwise. quote:Critical Hit sounds great, until you read that it's a 1/4 chance. You NEED the bonus given by Concussive Force to solo Scrakes without trouble 100% of the time because it knocks them on the ground, and Critical Hit gives you the ability solo them 25% of the time instead, on top of the fact that you're gimping yourself because Concussive Force lets you stunlock Fleshpounds. They couldn't make Critical Hit look like a worse skill unless they actively tried to. No disagreement here, but according to Yoshiro on the TW forums, they're going according to new values for stun and whatnot. They said something about it earlier. Basically, it's impossible to know what these changes here mean, since Tripwire refuses to give us more information, and apparently doesn't even have settings nailed down themselves. See the following quotes: quote:Also keep in mind that numbers and positions are not final (as stated). It is also not great to judge against current zeds as the new incap and resistances/weakness system changes things considerably which we are currently balancing against. quote:It isn't ready to share yet as it is changing daily at this point. Once it has settled down we will share more information on those changes.
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May 21, 2016 01:44
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I looked through damage values for other weapons compared to the extra damage you'd get from 10% more impact damage that you calculated, and I'd have to say you changed my mind. 60 points more damage is equivalent to a whopping four pistol shots, so I guess I just needed something to put it in perspective. I still stand by opting for 10% more explosive damage because I see that as free damage and more effective splash radius, but also mostly because I'm very pessimistic towards the dubious phrasing of "reload extra fast." In terms of the changes to knockback that they're planning on implementing, unless they made Concussive Force somehow worse by implementing it, I'd still wouldn't rely on a skill that works only a fourth of the time that you proc very infrequently. Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 02:00 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 01:57
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Theta Zero posted:In terms of the changes to knockback that they're planning on implementing, unless they made Concussive Force somehow worse by implementing it, I'd still wouldn't rely on a skill that works only a fourth of the time that you proc very infrequently. Oh, for sure. I guess I'm just concerned that they make things like stagger harder to proc on higher difficulties, such that both perks ultimately end up sucking due to infrequency of utility.
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May 21, 2016 02:08
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It's not just one person doing 10% more damage. If everyone is doing 10% more from perks then things are going to die much more quickly.
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May 21, 2016 02:56
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If you want to run HOE with 6 demos that's your business, but in terms of practical gameplay, I'll absolutely go with LM's actual fact-based analysis. I mean let's take a contrived example. Your weapon does 1.0 damage. Your enemy has 2.0 hp. If you fire at him twice, he dies. If you have a 10% boost, you do 1.1 damage. He still takes two shots. You would need a literal 100% boost to change shots to kill. That 10% might look impressive superficially but is functionally irrelevant - it changed nothing about your interaction with that enemy. This is why breakpoints are pretty common in players knowing more about games than the actual developers - ask the Payday thread about it - because in terms of shots to kill there can easily be no difference in STK between very large numbers - like another example: 39.9 damage per shot is a breakpoint and the next is 80 or whatever. So you would think hey, +10%, that's a big deal, 40 to 44, or 50 to 55, or 60 to 66, or 70 to 77 -- whatever. But in every single case, that 10% literally has zero effect on your performance. That's why you have to actually dig in and check how much it really does against enemy values - 10% could be a huge deal if your weapons tend to do 90% damage to an enemy per shot, but that's not what is happening here.
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May 21, 2016 03:16
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Psion posted:That's why you have to actually dig in and check how much it really does against enemy values - 10% could be a huge deal if your weapons tend to do 90% damage to an enemy per shot, but that's not what is happening here. 
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May 21, 2016 03:25
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I'd originally wrote 95% and changed it to 90 to try and make it clearer, but gently caress...you're right  90 + 9 = 99%, owned by my own math see? proves my point. 10% sounds cool, but you gotta go into the data. See how easy it is to think it's meaningful when it isn't? haha Psion fucked around with this message at 03:56 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 03:51
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Psion posted:I'd originally wrote 95% and changed it to 90 to try and make it clearer, but gently caress...you're right
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May 21, 2016 04:44
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Yeah. 3 extra rockets or whatever means you can take 3 more shots when there's a single zed who really has to go away, like a siren or a husk about to detonate or whatever - it's just more flexibility for no effective loss in damage.
Psion fucked around with this message at 05:54 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 05:51
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quote:Disagree on this. The RPG is a solid weapon presently. If they gently caress it up by reducing its explosion radius, though, you may have a point. Well, they just said they are going to do that. Now that the grenade launcher weighs less, costs like a third as much, has around twice the ammo, and you must still actively make the choice between it or the rocket launcher, do the math. What we need to keep in mind about damage is that a level 0 demo can one-shot trash with either the grenade or rocket launcher. This is in fact the main thing it is useful at and how it shines at all on customs where you can get an overhead perch and just blast away at concentrated enemies, getting a kill count to rival the berserker. It is generally never effective at anything else on a relative scale because of ammunition, attack speed, and ludicrously huge damage nerfs against actually challenging enemies. It is almost a purposefully horrible class.
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May 21, 2016 06:22
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Well, they just said they are going to do that. Now that the grenade launcher weighs less, costs like a third as much, has around twice the ammo, and you must still actively make the choice between it or the rocket launcher, do the math. Depends on the magnitude of the reduction, is what I think I meant to say? Because yeah, I really can't disagree with your logic. The RPG is supposed to be a large-enemy killer, but relative to other options, it under-performs, IMO.
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May 21, 2016 06:26
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Nope. Like I said earlier, an extra 10% damage doesn't generally mean much. I decided to go an rerun a few numbers*, though, just to make sure. I might be missing edge cases, but generally speaking, my assertion holds. For Sirens and Husks, it literally does not matter, at all. As long as you're level 25, regardless of whether or not you take the extra damage, you will almost always require the same amount of ammo to kill an enemy. For Sirens, regardless of player number or difficulty, it will always take one rocket or grenade. Sirens are easy. Husks are slightly more variable, but again, 10% damage generally means nothing. At the low end, you need 3 grenades, or 1 rocket. At the high end, 4 grenades, or 2 rockets. Regardless of whether or not you take the extra damage. Am I clear on this point? The mistake you're making is assuming the Demo has to 100% solo every zed in a vacuum. That's not the realistic situation. You're not going to be shooting at pristine scrake heads, you'll be shooting at scrake heads also getting chewed up by many lower-damage attacks from other classes - and in that situation, a realistic one, extra damage is good even if it doesn't lead to a solo breakpoint. Not that 10% is still super low and incredibly boring, but it's not useless.
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May 21, 2016 12:21
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How about: give the demo one extra grenade every five levels? Would help when you're mobbed, especially now that On Contact is a thing.
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May 21, 2016 13:43
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C4 as grenade would be one huge step to making Demo better.
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May 21, 2016 17:52
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:How about : give the demo one extra grenade every five levels? Would help when you're mobbed, especially now that On Contact is a thing. unless you're under 15 and getting mobbed by sirens, of course 
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May 21, 2016 17:54
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DatonKallandor posted:C4 as grenade would be one huge step to making Demo better. They really need to let you have more than one of them out, though. Like, press grenade key to deploy, hold grenade key to detonate. It's definitely possible with regular UE binds.
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May 21, 2016 17:59
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| # ? May 10, 2024 01:47 |
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What's the preferred Level 15 perk for Commando, Leadership or Call Out. Leaning towards Leadership. Also, how to you git gud at Beserker? It's the only class I don't play because I just can't wrap my head around it. I'm only at Level 8 and I bought the game at launch. Generally once I get to the Pulverizer I can do OK but I often quit before that because I just feel so squishy with the Crovel.
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May 21, 2016 18:34
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