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Oh yeah loving hell did I even tell you guys about the PSUV candidate for the parliamentary elections that got loving detained today for grand theft auto, possession of stolen goods and illegal firearms? 
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May 21, 2016 02:43
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There's almost enough cash on that table to buy a burger in McDonalds.
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May 21, 2016 02:46
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Reading this thread is extremely disturbing. I hope all the Venegoons and their families who are going through this stay safe and healthy through all this. Assuming Maduro is removed from power and a non-insane government is appointed, what are the steps to get Venezuela back on its feet? IMF aid? A rescue package from the US/Canada/other American nations? The rest of the world has a duty to lend a hand here I think, the same as when your neighbor finally leaves their abusive spouse but needs some help to get clear of the wreckage. It seems like a quick injection of funds to alleviate the shortfalls combined with a government willing to re-implement rule of law would fix everything, but I'm not on the ground there and don't want to be presumptuous. edit: It also disgusts me how the PSUV is acting. How can you continue to operate with a straight face when your people are literally starving and killing each other in front of you? axeil fucked around with this message at 02:59 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 02:51
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It almost seems like a traditional pragmatic dictatorship would be a step up from the self-destructive fantasy land the current government seems to live in. None of it makes any sense at all. I wish all of you still in the country luck in the future, I honestly don't know how you get from where you are to a situation that's not poo poo but I hope you find it.
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May 21, 2016 03:39
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axeil posted:
Sunk cost, maybe? "I am in blood Stepped in so far that should I wade no more. Returning were as tedious as go o'er." or something. But who knows what's going on in that government.
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May 21, 2016 03:51
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axeil posted:Assuming Maduro is removed from power and a non-insane government is appointed, what are the steps to get Venezuela back on its feet? IMF aid? A rescue package from the US/Canada/other American nations? The rest of the world has a duty to lend a hand here I think, the same as when your neighbor finally leaves their abusive spouse but needs some help to get clear of the wreckage. Economics isn't my field, but I can tell you that someone's going to have to give Venezuela some money. The Central Bank doesn't release economic information anymore (the National Assembly passed a law earlier this year requiring regular economic updates, but the Supreme Court struck it down), so it's difficult to know for sure what the country's finances look like. However, apparently there are ways to guesstimate some figures with relative accuracy using economics wizardry. For example, a firm called Inter American Trends announced last week that the country's liquid reserves had sunk to about $196 million, down about 73% from last month. Total reserves are probably at around the $12-15 billion mark right now, and decreasing. Oil's at $37 per barrel today, but the government is still spending money like it's at $100 per barrel. As for "re-implementing the rule of law", I'm afraid to admit that I think that this is going to be a horrendously arduous process. If Maduro were to be recalled, for example, the Supreme Court would still be chavista, as would the army, the Public Ministry, the electoral council, some state governments, and many municipalities. What happens if there's a presidential election and the Supreme Court rules the result unconstitutional? What happens if state governments refuse to collaborate with an opposition president? What happens if the Public Ministry (the lawyers, judges and police) refuse to enforce opposition laws? I think that it's really tempting to think that "Maduro out = PSUV out", but the pessimist in me sees this as (like a said earlier) a rather prolonged and uphill battle. axeil posted:edit: It also disgusts me how the PSUV is acting. How can you continue to operate with a straight face when your people are literally starving and killing each other in front of you? axeil posted:It almost seems like a traditional pragmatic dictatorship would be a step up from the self-destructive fantasy land the current government seems to live in. None of it makes any sense at all. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:59 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 03:54
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Can you recommend any specific books or articles on Venezuelan history? English or Spanish language
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May 21, 2016 05:14
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Venezuela has an abundance of natural resources, why don't they industrialize 5 year plan style? Without the holodomor of course... fight hording with abundance
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May 21, 2016 06:38
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That would require the government to understand, or desire, having business in the country that make money for themselves, rather than shovelling all of their profits into the PSUV's pocket. Also, in case it wasn't obvious, I was joking when I posted the CIA thing. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good idea though.
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May 21, 2016 07:46
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Jesus Horse posted:Venezuela has an abundance of natural resources, why don't they industrialize 5 year plan style? Without the holodomor of course... fight hording with abundance resources can be used for consumption now. Or consumption later, via investment. to make a long, long story very short, Venezuela has too many people who are dependent on eating the natural resources (to be precise, exporting it for edibles) in the here and now for an acceptable quality of life. the problem is not caused by hoarding this is the gist of the political question, which hopefully makes it easy to understand its political arc of the last decade - global oil prices have crashed, so Venezuela faces a hard currency crisis; its resources now buy even less. It must starve people in the future via cutting investment even further, or starve people now, or both. ronya fucked around with this message at 08:00 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 07:57
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Chuck Boone posted:
I was just going to mention that there's a renewed fondness for Perez Jimenez lately that's pretty understandable (if still dumb since he was a dictator). Also it's worth noting that our last official dictator was in power 6 years. Chavez had what, a 12 years run, plus maduro's 3?
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May 21, 2016 09:16
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El Hefe posted:There's almost enough cash on that table to buy a burger in McDonalds. Venezuela, where a hamburger is officially $170 A hamburger sold for 1,700 Venezuelan bolivares is $170, or a 69,000-bolivar hotel room is $6,900 a night, based on the official rate of 10 bolivares for $1. But of course no merchant is pricing at the official rate imposed under currency controls. It's the black market rate of 1,000 bolivares per dollar that's applied. But for Venezuelans paid in hyperinflation-hit bolivares, and living in an economy relying on mostly imported goods or raw materials, conditions are unthinkably expensive. Even for the middle class, most of it sliding into poverty, hamburgers and hotels are out-of-reach excesses. "Everybody is knocked low," Michael Leal, a 34-year-old manager of an eyewear store in Caracas, told AFP. "We can't breathe." http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/world/981597/venezuela-where-a-hamburger-is-officially-170 The alternative then is to turn to black market merchants who sell goods at grossly inflated rates, often 100 times more than the subsidized price tag. it's bad.
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May 21, 2016 09:25
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Hugo Chavez was a CIA agent sent to Venezuela to destroy all national industry and production other than oil, thereby making Venezuela entirely dependent on the US. Hugo is now living anonymously in Northern Virginia.
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May 21, 2016 13:09
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Chuck Boone posted:If you're interested in Venezuelan history, I recommend reading about Marcos Perez Jimenez. I think it's fair to say that he was, as you put it, a traditional pragmatic dictator from 1952-1958. A lot of the country's most impressive infrastructure was built during his regime. I remember growing up hearing people talking about him relatively fondly: "Sure, if you went out and looked for trouble by holding up signs saying you didn't like him you'd get thrown in the dungeon, but otherwise life was simpler and roads were getting built". 
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May 21, 2016 13:23
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/china-venezuela-20bn-loans-financing-nicolas-maduro-beijing?CMP=share_btn_fb China just sphered Venezuela I guess?
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May 21, 2016 13:28
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axeil posted:edit: It also disgusts me how the PSUV is acting. How can you continue to operate with a straight face when your people are literally starving and killing each other in front of you? Any reasonable explanation has to be psychological. The purpose of power is power, the purpose of torture is torture. The entire point of communism is sadism -- human suffering is the goal, not the byproduct. The only objection to this fact, which is obvious from any examination of Venezuela or any other leftist government, is caterwauling from wealthy Westerners who paid $400,000 to a private college for their Marxist Studies degree and have no counter-argument but loudly insisting that criticism of such things is ipso facto disallowed.
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May 21, 2016 13:39
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Chuck Boone posted:The PSUV is so set in its ways that it leaked a conversation between Lorenzo Mendoza (the head of the biggest private company in the country) and a Venezuelan economist (I think it was Ricardo Hausmann?) some weeks ago now talking about what an international financial aid package might look like. The conversation was clearly a private one between to friends discussing a hypothetical situation, but the PSUV blew it up and there was talk for a bit about charging Mendoza with treason for even uttering the words "IMF". Great info thanks. I actually am an economist and I agree with your assessment. Even if silly season ended tomorrow the real problem is that Venezuela is not self-sufficient in terms of basic resources (food, textile, etc). Energy is really the only area right now where Venezuela could self-fund but they need to continue selling oil on the external market as that's keeping things from becoming completely untenable. When the aid package comes (because it has to), hopefully the IMF and World Bank have learned the lesson that the EU and Greece have taught us and don't try imposing "reforms" and loan-shark style setups that end up making the situation worse. It's really strange, I got my start in economics by going to a model UN conference and sitting on their IMF committee back in high school. It was a "crisis committee" which meant that during the conference some crisis would come up and you'd need to drop what you were doing and address the crisis. Our crisis was Venezuela threatening to default on it's debt and Chavez doing all sorts of crazy things. We ended up solving the crisis by coming up with an aid package that didn't have unworkable policies attached, but would require the legislature to pass laws to make sure Chavez couldn't do anything crazy. It's really depressing that scenario is basically going to play out in the next few years except with some other leader in Venezuela.  As for the rule of law bit, I'm of the opinion that the to fix the other offices still being filled with PSUV is some sort of bloodless coup. A situation in which the recall election happens because even the electoral commission can't keep up the charade and then the new President and Legislature give the Supreme Court an Andrew Jackson and dare them to enforce their rulings. With the Supreme Court neutralized they can then focus on cracking down on corruption from Caracas outward. This is obviously way harder to do if the recall doesn't happen though. No idea how feasible it is though, but it's a template at least for how to get things back on the right track. Here's hoping whatever happens, there's no violence...although Maduro getting Mussolini'd wouldn't be much of a loss. M. Discordia posted:Any reasonable explanation has to be psychological. The purpose of power is power, the purpose of torture is torture. The entire point of communism is sadism -- human suffering is the goal, not the byproduct. The only objection to this fact, which is obvious from any examination of Venezuela or any other leftist government, is caterwauling from wealthy Westerners who paid $400,000 to a private college for their Marxist Studies degree and have no counter-argument but loudly insisting that criticism of such things is ipso facto disallowed. Yeah . All systems where the Other is demonized leads to situations in which you do nothing but advance hatred and misery. And both hyper-capitalism and communism are great at otherizing people. Whatever political and economic system you have needs to be able to strike balances and compromises otherwise you end up with purges and death. Ideology should never trump good government and effective policy. Even if a policy isn't ideologically "approved" if it accomplishes a worthy goal it should be considered.
axeil fucked around with this message at 13:44 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 13:41
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Demiurge4 posted:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/china-venezuela-20bn-loans-financing-nicolas-maduro-beijing?CMP=share_btn_fb That was last year. Believe it or not all it took was a year before China finally decided to withdraw all of it's assistance and projects from the country. 10 years ago China even started the construction of a bullet train that would have connected some random town in Guarico with Caracas.
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May 21, 2016 14:03
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axeil posted:When the aid package comes (because it has to), hopefully the IMF and World Bank have learned the lesson that the EU and Greece have taught us and don't try imposing "reforms" and loan-shark style setups that end up making the situation worse. No one is going to bail out Venezuela without forcing austerity and reform. There's no way anyone is throwing dollars into that dumpster fire just to keep the Chavista model going. Which means a lot of people much worse off than before this crisis started, but maybe not starving.
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May 21, 2016 14:35
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Squalid posted:Can you recommend any specific books or articles on Venezuelan history? English or Spanish language "The Magical State" by Fernando Coronil takes a really interesting look at the history of the country through oil. The gist of the book is that oil is so intrinsically connected to the modern Venezuela state that you can't talk about one without the other. As he's having that discussion, he talks about the relationship between oil and the Venezuelan state at several stages in the country's history. The book is definitely on the academic side: here's a review of it. Check it out to see if it appeals to you. Miguel Tinker Salas has a book out called "Venezuela: What Everyone Needs to Know". While I haven't read this book, I've read some of Salas' other work and he was decidedly in favour of Chavez/the Bolivarian revolution, as a lot of leftist scholars were. I'm not sure if his positions has shifted since 2013. Anyway, if you're like me and you aren't too thrilled about chavismo and the PSUV, I'd still check out this book because it's never a bad idea to read something that challenges your opinions. Demiurge4 posted:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/china-venezuela-20bn-loans-financing-nicolas-maduro-beijing?CMP=share_btn_fb
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May 21, 2016 15:17
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axeil posted:
One might hope they demand at least some economic reforms because the current system clearly doesn't work. I think they've learned their lesson from all the structural adjustment failures, but will be curious to see if there's a push for privatization. I haven't been following the situation super closely, but what's the regional response been? I've been a little surprised that no other Latin American countries have stepped in.
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May 21, 2016 16:04
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The Guardian article posted above said 95% of the exports were from oil etc. Assuming one day somebody competent comes to power and decides to diversify, what else in the short term does Venezuela have that it could potentially export?
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May 21, 2016 16:19
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people?
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May 21, 2016 16:37
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The exodus of people with higher education or money has been underway for some time, so getting the country back to non-crackpot status could fix that. There's no reason Venezuela a couple decades from now can't be at least as advanced as the Czech Republic or Chile or any other country that was under dictatorship of some kind in the 80s and has reformed. Even the country where the literal Nazis governed is the economic center of Europe right now and is considered a first-world liberal democracy. There's no reason for despair over the possibility of fixing the problem so long as people actually interested in fixing it eventually come to power.
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May 21, 2016 16:47
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Xandu posted:I haven't been following the situation super closely, but what's the regional response been? I've been a little surprised that no other Latin American countries have stepped in. The answer to this question is another dark chapter in this story. There has essentially been no response from the region. One of the things Chavez was very successful at was creating support for Bolivarianism in Venezuela through selling/trading oil at preferential terms for the receiving countries (see: Petrocaribe). The net effect of this initiative and others like it has been that Venezuela has quite literally paid for regional support. As a result, regional organizations like UNASUR, ALBA and Mercosur have been silent on what's been happening in the country. When it comes to individual countries, Colombia has been the most vocal in its condemnation of the Venezuelan crisis. That might be giving it too much credit, though. A better way to put it might be to say, "Colombia has been the least silent on the Venezuelan crisis". That is to say, I can't recall any unequivocal condemnation coming President Juan Manuel Santos, except perhaps late last year when Maduro ordered the mass deportation of Colombian citizens from border regions. Former president Alvaro Uribe has been much more outspoken of the Maduro administration, and he actually plays a pretty central role in the "literally everyone in the world is involved in a giant plot against us" mythology that the PSUV has built. Argentina under Macri has made some comments on the Venezuelan situation, but I think Macri is much more concerned about what's going on in Argentina. Chile has also voiced concern about the situation, and I believe that its national parliament has issued some kind of statement denouncing the human rights abuses in Venezuela, although I can't seem to find a source for that right now. Right now, the most likely candidate for strongest denunciation of Maduro's continued violations of human rights and law appears to be the Organization of American States. Its secretary general is Luis Alamagro, and he penned a scathing rebuke of Maduro after he accused him of being a CIA agent. The Venezuelan National Assembly has asked the OAS to apply the democratic charter (I think that's the expression in English - in Spanish, it's "aplicar la carta democratica") against Venezuela. This would involve the OAS temporarily suspending Venezuela from the organization for the "unconstitutional interruption of the democratic order" under Maduro. If this were to happen, it would be the loudest, most important regional reaction to the crisis in Venezuela. If I were a betting man I would put money down on the OAS suspending Venezuela before the end of the year. M. Discordia posted:The exodus of people with higher education or money has been underway for some time, so getting the country back to non-crackpot status could fix that. There's no reason Venezuela a couple decades from now can't be at least as advanced as the Czech Republic or Chile or any other country that was under dictatorship of some kind in the 80s and has reformed. Even the country where the literal Nazis governed is the economic center of Europe right now and is considered a first-world liberal democracy. There's no reason for despair over the possibility of fixing the problem so long as people actually interested in fixing it eventually come to power. A couple of National Assembly deputies came up to Ottawa last week to meet with the Senate here and give a talk at the University of Ottawa. During the talk, one of the deputies talked about how the National Assembly would eventually have to pass some kind of repatriation bill in order to make it easy for all of the people who have left the country to go back to Venezuela and help in the reconstruction. He didn't give a whole lot of detail, but it's encouraging to hear that at least it's on their mind.
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May 21, 2016 18:58
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In the long run, it's the mass exodus of people that's going to hurt Venezuela the most. Colombia has had issues with educated people leaving for years, but that's nothing compared to what Venezuela is undergoing. They've lost so many educated people it's hard to say when they'll recover.
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May 21, 2016 19:41
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julian assflange posted:The Guardian article posted above said 95% of the exports were from oil etc. I think they have good farmland but price controls have made them unsustainable.
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May 21, 2016 19:46
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M. Discordia posted:Any reasonable explanation has to be psychological. The purpose of power is power, the purpose of torture is torture. The entire point of communism is sadism -- human suffering is the goal, not the byproduct. The only objection to this fact, which is obvious from any examination of Venezuela or any other leftist government, is caterwauling from wealthy Westerners who paid $400,000 to a private college for their Marxist Studies degree and have no counter-argument but loudly insisting that criticism of such things is ipso facto disallowed. If that's your serious analysis of the situation you are utterly insane. E: M. Discordia posted:I'm saying that we don't remember that Allende had already destroyed human rights, civil society, and the economy in Chile, precisely because of what came after and how much longer-lasting and worse it was. Creating a situation where a left-wing government allows no opposition but armed revolution will eventually lead to armed right-wing revolution. Pinochet was one of the best things that ever happened to U.S. armchair Marxists, because he is why the failures of Allende don't get discussed. It's in the interests of everyone who doesn't want to see Venezuela turned into a battleground between violent left- and right- wing factions to work to restore democracy and civil liberties in Venezuela. There is only one outcome for a totalitarian society. M. Discordia posted:Communism isn't about helping the poor any more than fascism is about helping the nation. It's just a veneer over wanting to dominate and kill people for psychological reasons. Venezuela's government and especially Venezuela's foreign supporters are the best demonstration of that fact. M. Discordia posted:There is no time like the present to Kill All Communists. M. Discordia posted:Now that the PSUV is in open sedition against the first legitimately elected government of Venezuela in 17 years, it's time to just round them up and kill them in an orderly fashion instead of doing so at the end of a protracted and destructive civil war. How are your precious bodily fluids? HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:53 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 19:47
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M. Discordia posted:Any reasonable explanation has to be psychological. The purpose of power is power, the purpose of torture is torture. The entire point of communism is sadism -- human suffering is the goal, not the byproduct. The only objection to this fact, which is obvious from any examination of Venezuela or any other leftist government, is caterwauling from wealthy Westerners who paid $400,000 to a private college for their Marxist Studies degree and have no counter-argument but loudly insisting that criticism of such things is ipso facto disallowed. I think there're more pragmatic reasons than that. I think there're some genuine ideologists who're probably so invested they refuse to acknowledge the problems as being a result of their actions, but mostly I think it's the fact the military is a massive smuggling apparatus now. The higher ups in the government are also making massive amounts of money. When people are given a choice between making piles of money or leaving the system and possibly being killed/arrested/exiled as a result, it's pretty easy to see what most of the PSUV have chosen. Left wing idiots defending this government aren't only stupid because of how horrible it is, but also because it's not really a socialist government anymore, it's a kleptocracy. It's a pure test for left wing individuals as to whether they value words or function.
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May 21, 2016 19:58
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M. Discordia posted:Westerners who paid $400,000 to a private college for their Marxist Studies degree and have no counter-argument but loudly insisting that criticism of such things is ipso facto disallowed HorseLord posted:did someone say my name?
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May 21, 2016 19:59
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Adventure Pigeon posted:I think there're more pragmatic reasons than that. I think there're some genuine ideologists who're probably so invested they refuse to acknowledge the problems as being a result of their actions, but mostly I think it's the fact the military is a massive smuggling apparatus now. The higher ups in the government are also making massive amounts of money. When people are given a choice between making piles of money or leaving the system and possibly being killed/arrested/exiled as a result, it's pretty easy to see what most of the PSUV have chosen. Left wing idiots defending this government aren't only stupid because of how horrible it is, but also because it's not really a socialist government anymore, it's a kleptocracy. It's a pure test for left wing individuals as to whether they value words or function. Yeah, but the higher-ups are going to stay there until they get executed on live TV on Christmas, rather than just retiring to Switzerland with their billions. They can and will lose all their ill-gotten material wealth because it is only a means to an end and can never satisfy them. Their ultimate goal is their perversions; i.e. the enjoyment they get from exercising power over people to the extent of making them starve and die.
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May 21, 2016 20:01
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I've never had savings higher than $2000 in my life and I didn't go to university. Turns out you don't need money or opportunities to know fantasies about a Venezuelan Pinochet coming along to save your precious bodily fluids from the imaginary communists are loving creepy.
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May 21, 2016 20:02
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M. Discordia posted:Yeah, but the higher-ups are going to stay there until they get executed on live TV on Christmas, rather than just retiring to Switzerland with their billions. They can and will lose all their ill-gotten material wealth because it is only a means to an end and can never satisfy them. Their ultimate goal is their perversions; i.e. the enjoyment they get from exercising power over people to the extent of making them starve and die. The higher ups are terrible people, but the bloodthirsty fantasies are getting a bit strange. I kinda get the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that most of the Venezuelans would be happy with them getting away as long as they gave up power and let the country start rebuilding. As to whether they will or not and how this ends, who knows. The best case would be power gets transferred peacefully, Maduro and the other cronies get a fair trial, and Venezuela receives foreign aid and starts rebuilding. Crossing your fingers that people start getting executed on live TV is a bit sick. It may seem like justice, but there'll be a lot of bloodshed getting there, and society would have to degrade to the point where shooting someone before a live studio audience is acceptable. Do you think a government that would allow that would be any better than the current one? Think of the governments that permit stuff like that and whether that would be happy outcome for the people. You should treat people, even the worst criminals, according to humanist principles and the rule of law not for their sake but yours.
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May 21, 2016 20:49
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Nicolae_and_Elena_Ceau%C8%99escu
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May 21, 2016 21:02
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I don't think the military taking control of Venezuela is a happy outcome. They're one of the largest cartels in South America and have been adding to the misery by skimming large amounts of basic, price controlled goods.
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May 21, 2016 21:17
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Adventure Pigeon posted:The higher ups are terrible people, but the bloodthirsty fantasies are getting a bit strange. I kinda get the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that most of the Venezuelans would be happy with them getting away as long as they gave up power and let the country start rebuilding. As to whether they will or not and how this ends, who knows. The best case would be power gets transferred peacefully, Maduro and the other cronies get a fair trial, and Venezuela receives foreign aid and starts rebuilding. Crossing your fingers that people start getting executed on live TV is a bit sick. It may seem like justice, but there'll be a lot of bloodshed getting there, and society would have to degrade to the point where shooting someone before a live studio audience is acceptable. Do you think a government that would allow that would be any better than the current one? Think of the governments that permit stuff like that and whether that would be happy outcome for the people. You should treat people, even the worst criminals, according to humanist principles and the rule of law not for their sake but yours. This is a sentiment that I've heard from National Assembly deputies (namely Freddy Guevara). I'd like to see a public opinion poll on the question "What would you like to happen to the people running the country today?", but my gut feeling is that most people would indeed answer something like "Escape the country in the middle of the night and leave us alone". I'm really interested to hear what the goons living in Venezuela have to say about this, though. But yeah, I think the most short-sighted, stupid thing any government can do is start killing people it disagrees with. You can't say, "The government is killing people, so let's become the government and kill people". That kind of thinking doesn't make an ounce of sense for the reasons you've pointed out. Plus, Venezuela was the first still-existing country to ban the death penalty. I think that there's absolutely no way that anyone would bring it back. Jail or self-imposed retirement in Cuba is what's most likely to happen. HorseLord posted:I've never had savings higher than $2000 in my life and I didn't go to university. 
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May 21, 2016 21:17
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Chuck Boone posted:
Honestly if I was going to be incarcerated in Venezuela I would just rather have them kill me.
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May 21, 2016 21:25
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Adventure Pigeon posted:I don't think the military taking control of Venezuela is a happy outcome. They're one of the largest cartels in South America and have been adding to the misery by skimming large amounts of basic, price controlled goods. I'm just saying it was a historical reference to the concept of dictators hanging on until it costs them, not a specific plan for Venezuela.
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May 21, 2016 21:27
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M. Discordia posted:I'm just saying it was a historical reference to the concept of dictators hanging on until it costs them, not a specific plan for Venezuela. Unfortunately, I agree with that. I don't see Maduro and company leaving voluntarily in the middle of the night.
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May 21, 2016 21:29
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Unfortunately, I agree with that. I don't see Maduro and company leaving voluntarily in the middle of the night. same. they have too much invested monetarily, power wise and ideologically. i doubt maduro wants to go back to being a bus driver. I honestly sadly believe they will see Caracas and the rest of the country burn before they secede or step down from power.
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May 21, 2016 21:38
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