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Remember when Geoff Johns turned Alexander Luthor and Superboy from COIE into villains? One of which was shown tearing off limbs and brutally murdering teenage heroes on panel? Now he's pointing the finger at other people for "missing the point" and making heroes too dark.
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May 21, 2016 23:09
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I think after reading the various rundowns and articles the thing that surprises me most out of this is how much of a complete indictment of the New 52 this seems to be. I mean the book is basically telling you "The last five years of stories were bad" and that's either a big realization on their part or them just coming clean after knowing the whole time. Either way it feels they realize what the problem is and are at least attempting to address it. Also I don't think Johns is trying to say he's innocent in all this. I think he realizes that he was doing wrong as well and this is him trying to course correct. Just because you've screwed up doesn't mean you can't try to fix it even if you fail spectacularly.
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May 21, 2016 23:10
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:The third army didnt need to show in detail the assimilation process DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Blackest Night wanted to be simplistically superheroic but was so over the top that it veered right past 'parody grimdark' and into 'just plain grimdark.'
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May 21, 2016 23:12
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BrianWilly posted:But what was the most subversively grimdark Moore-esque thing Johns has done in the Nu52? Making Billy Batson an rear end in a top hat? I haven't given much poo poo about Johns' stuff lately but as far as I know most of it has been largely, simplistically superheroic. He didn't just make Billy Batson an rear end in a top hat. He made him declare openly that nobody was actually good and then use his powers to scam money. Like gently caress, people talk about how Zach Snyder doesn't get Superman or Batman but Geoff Johns understands Captain Marvel more poorly than Zach Snyder does those characters.
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May 21, 2016 23:13
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He was kind of fun to give Superman someone else to bounce off of, too, I felt, until he inevitably became "dude from another world hiding poo poo and everything he said was a lie and he tries to kill people because his planet literally runs on people and has been for forever and he feels bad about it but oh well but then superman convinces him to do better and they try and oops everything goes bad anyway and he blames superman for it all and decides to blow up the earth and then superman cheats with a new power out of his rear end and now the bad guy who used to be a good guy is sitting in a cell brooding until someone else decides to use him as a one note villain because actually providing these super people with therapy and support and rehabilitating them is secondary to putting them in a cell with no privacy still covered in dirt and poo poo and leaving them 100% alone to reflect on how evil they were and that will never backfire"
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May 21, 2016 23:14
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fatherboxx posted:
Well, we know why Archie are replacing him with Ryan North, now. Or is that a smokescreen for their new mature readers' title: Sex With Archie?
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May 21, 2016 23:18
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ImpAtom posted:He didn't just make Billy Batson an rear end in a top hat. He made him declare openly that nobody was actually good and then use his powers to scam money. the whole point of the story was him rising above that much like the whole point of the first justice league arc was them going from being pissy at each other to beating Darkseid much like Simon Baz went from having to steal cars to make ends meet to being the Green Lantern doing all kinds of impossible poo poo because no one told him he couldn't it's all there, the intent and the execution are always the same, people overcome flaws that are made very clear and very literal, and achieve greatness we can debate how well he does it, but let's not claim he doesn't
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May 21, 2016 23:20
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ElNarez posted:the whole point of the story was him rising above that So? How does that defeat my point? How is having to have Captain Marvel 'rise above that' any different than having Superman angst and be sad or Batman use guns and shoot people? The point of Captain Marvel is that he is optimism and childish hope given literal form. Having him be or start as the avatar for cynicism and bitterness is completely lovely, even if he 'grows out of it' to getting his rear end beat by Batman and whining about wanting to play X-Box. Nu52 Captain Marvel loving sucks and if Rebirth gets rid of him that alone will be a huge improvement. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:25 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 23:23
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BrianWilly posted:Okay so the extent of Johns' grimness in the Nu52 is making some really evil villains. Gotcha. His role as the person actually writing the scripts and his role as chief creative executive or whatever get a little muddy. He tends to work on the big, line-wide crossovers that mess with reality every couple of years, which are also editorially mandated most of the time, so it's difficult to say exactly how much of the New 52 status quo owes to either him or DiDio, and it's also difficult to say how much the five years of stories that have come since then have John's fingerprints on them vs. DiDio's, or the individual group editors. The New 52 is overflowing with horror stories of creators being told how to create, driven off by meddling editors, having their work changed after they had turned it in, etc. and I'm not saying it's fair to lay all the blame on Johns but he is along with DiDio and Jim Lee one of the major driving forces behind the overall direction and tone of the company. And the stuff that came before the New 52 is absolutely relevant as that was the stuff that got Johns the power he's had at DC the last decade or so, which he wouldn't have been tapped for a "leading role" in creating the new continuity to begin with. People saw Blackest Night and thought "This is the guy we want".
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May 21, 2016 23:24
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As much as I rag on Johns, and I don't think he's a very good writer now, I love his Flash run. That's why it was so disheartening to me that he was the one that basically destroyed the character that he and Waid did such good work on. If that was Johns we had been seeing for the last 10 years I think I'd have a very different opinion of him right now.
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May 21, 2016 23:32
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X-O posted:As much as I rag on Johns, and I don't think he's a very good writer now, I love his Flash run. That's why it was so disheartening to me that he was the one that basically destroyed the character that he and Waid did such good work on. If that was Johns we had been seeing for the last 10 years I think I'd have a very different opinion of him right now. Johns had an excellent Flash run, yeah.
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May 21, 2016 23:33
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That's kind of why I see him writing Wally as the focal point of all this being his "Yeah, I know I hosed up" moment.
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May 21, 2016 23:36
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X-O posted:I think after reading the various rundowns and articles the thing that surprises me most out of this is how much of a complete indictment of the New 52 this seems to be. I mean the book is basically telling you "The last five years of stories were bad" and that's either a big realization on their part or them just coming clean after knowing the whole time. Either way it feels they realize what the problem is and are at least attempting to address it. The problem is that, yeah, just because he criticizes some of the stories doesn't mean he isn't prone to making the same mistakes that he's criticizing, and long-time readers are pretty aware of that. Hence some of the responses here. I guess we'll just have to see if history repeats itself again. ...Except that he's not writing any more books after this...so, evidently we'll have to see if whoever DC picks to helm the big Dr. Manhattan punchathon will be able to deliver on what Johns is selling here. 
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May 21, 2016 23:44
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BrianWilly posted:...Except that he's not writing any more books after this...so, evidently we'll have to see if whoever DC picks to helm the big Dr. Manhattan punchathon will be able to deliver on what Johns is selling here. Well, that article above has Johns saying that the confrontation with Manhattan will not be a punching thing. But then again he won't be writing it so who knows.
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May 21, 2016 23:50
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ImpAtom posted:So? How does that defeat my point? How is having to have Captain Marvel 'rise above that' any different than having Superman angst and be sad or Batman use guns and shoot people? Because it affirms the exact thing you're saying. It challenges the values assigned to Captain Marvel, and, using action as a way to do its demonstration, shows how those values are the ones to be adopted and followed. It's using conflict to affirm that much louder that being bitter and cynical is lovely and goes nowhere. It gives Billy texture, reasons for why he is the way he is. That way of characterizing people is old as hell, it's pretty much the reason why Marvel got successfull in the first place. We could complain about how Spider-Man starts out irresponsible and vain, but, you know, he rises above that.
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May 21, 2016 23:50
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ElNarez posted:Because it affirms the exact thing you're saying. It challenges the values assigned to Captain Marvel, and, using action as a way to do its demonstration, shows how those values are the ones to be adopted and followed. It's using conflict to affirm that much louder that being bitter and cynical is lovely and goes nowhere. It gives Billy texture, reasons for why he is the way he is. That would be great if the story did that but it didn't. It recycled better stories by other Captain Marvel writers and left us with a character who exists only so writers can whine about kids these days. Also the 'it gives Billy texture" is laughable if you actually read any pre-Nu52 Captain Marvel. It's so tiring how people keep defending the terrible reboot with "well, old Captain Marvel had nothing" as if, even if you discount the original character, Power of Shazam or Monster Society of Evil or countless other versions of the character didn't exist. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:56 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 23:53
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X-O posted:Well, that article above has Johns saying that the confrontation with Manhattan will not be a punching thing. But then again he won't be writing it so who knows. I assume it'll be J'onn or Superman having a sit-down with him, in the vein of Laurie's pitch to him in the original book.
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May 22, 2016 00:01
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You know all of this just really sounds like a job for The Multiversity. I seem to recall Morrison made a Dr. Manhattan-esque character back in Superman Beyond. You could have a whole issue of them philosophising the nature of life, heroes, light and darkness. Show Manhattan the Orrey of Worlds have him be a sub Judge or something. Or gently caress it have the Superjudge just come in and unmake this dumbass premise.
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May 22, 2016 00:07
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https://twitter.com/robertliefeld/status/734044325206597637 https://twitter.com/robertliefeld/status/734044764987740162 Come on Rob, New Coke is a little harsh huh? It wasn't that bad.
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May 22, 2016 00:13
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X-O posted:https://twitter.com/robertliefeld/status/734044325206597637 Wow, I suddenly love Rob Liefeld.
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May 22, 2016 01:07
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Go, Rob! I'm hoping with DC's rebirth that I don't have to see the word "grimdark" come up in conversation, or people completely miss the point of New 52 Shazam. I'd also like Batman Incorporated to come back, also known as some of the easiest money DC comics has left on the table.
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May 22, 2016 01:33
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What was the point of the New 52 Shazam. Also they will go grim dark within the rebirth issue I bet.
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May 22, 2016 01:44
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CharlestheHammer posted:What was the point of the New 52 Shazam. To have him start out lovely and be lovely almost the whole time but eventually end up exactly where he was pre-n52. Just like everything else.
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May 22, 2016 02:47
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:To have him start out lovely and be lovely almost the whole time but eventually end up exactly where he was pre-n52. Yeah I don't particularly care about Shazam and was fine with the new guy but he didn't do anything special.
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May 22, 2016 02:58
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I love the Dr. Manhattan thing, I don't care if it makes absolutely no sense. Hopefully there are a bunch of fun DC comics published after this but I'm not really holding my breath on that.
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May 22, 2016 03:57
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Was Dial H pre or post N52? That always felt like one of the most unique comic books during its run. By China Melville.
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May 22, 2016 08:12
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This whole reboot was worth it just for Raven to look far less stupid than before.
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May 22, 2016 08:23
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Jiro posted:Was Dial H pre or post N52? That always felt like one of the most unique comic books during its run. By China Melville. I believe that was actually a New 52 launch title, and probably the best of the bunch IMHO.
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May 22, 2016 08:57
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I believe that was actually a New 52 launch title, and probably the best of the bunch IMHO. Agreed, the plot, and art were so drat good. Especially all the covers. It always felt like a title that could have happened with or without the New 52 launch.
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May 22, 2016 09:37
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There were quite a lot of good comics in the New 52— Dial H has already been mentioned, but there's also stuff like Morrison's Action Comics and Batman Incorporated – which are better critiques of DC than Johns could hope to write – Azarello's Wonder Woman, the whole run of Phantom Stranger where he's Judas, Charles Soule's Swamp Thing and Red Lanterns, probably others. Honestly it's probably less grimdark and better quality than the era preceding it, reputation notwithstanding. Having said that, I read some of the New 52 Deathstroke where the main character unrepentantly kills some children, so it certainly didn't get that reputation from nowhere.
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May 22, 2016 13:15
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I like the idea that Batman's ultimate shameful secret is that he turns out to be a lovely rip off of Nite Owl.
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May 22, 2016 14:30
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Fangz posted:I like the idea that Batman's ultimate shameful secret is that he turns out to be a lovely rip off of Nite Owl. Can it be canon that Nite Owl has been fighting the Court of Bats back on Watchmen-earth while Manhattan has been screwing around in space?
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May 22, 2016 14:31
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I believe that was actually a New 52 launch title, and probably the best of the bunch IMHO. Not quite - it was part of the second set of New 52 titles launched in spring 2012, after some of the lowest-selling books from the original launch (anybody remember Blackhawks?) were cancelled.
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May 22, 2016 16:24
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Thing is: the lettered preview pages from the one-shot are actually pretty good! I expect a lot of the Rebirth books to be pretty good! Which just makes the pathetic, deeply cynical Watchmen twist stand out all the more.
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May 22, 2016 17:17
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Remembering the New 52 Fallen: Blackhawks Savage Hawkman Hawk & Dove Mister Terrific OMAC Static Shock GI Combat Men of War Star Spangled War Stories Ravagers Captain Atom Resurrection Man Trinity of Sin - Pandora Trinity of Sin - Phantom Stranger Trinity of SIn Voodoo Grifter Team 7 Stormwatch Threshold Larfleeze T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents Katana Justice League of America's Vibe Nightforce Sword & Sorcery Klarion The Green Team The Movement Doomed
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May 22, 2016 17:34
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Edge & Christian posted:Remembering the New 52 Fallen: I will never understand DC's fixation on having a war comic in the early stages of the N52. You also forgot DC Universe Presents and Justice League International Anyways, this made me laugh 
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May 22, 2016 17:43
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Off-hand the only New 52 titles I remember enjoying were Wonder Woman under Azzarello, The Omega Men and Prez.
team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 17:57
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I will never understand DC's fixation on having a war comic in the early stages of the N52. War comics are a pretty big part of DC's history, and they were trying to have lots of variety in their early N52 stuff. Not just superhero comics, but war comics, horror, etc.
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May 22, 2016 18:07
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Edge & Christian posted:Remembering the New 52 Fallen: You forgot Demon Knights too, but that's ok because Demon Knights lives on in my heart
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May 22, 2016 19:13
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Nuns with Guns posted:You forgot Demon Knights too, but that's ok because Demon Knights lives on in my heart Demon Knights was too good for this world.
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May 22, 2016 19:17
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