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That just kind of blows my mind because it's so weird to try to tar white liberals in the modern day with a 100-year old anarchist slogan that means basically the opposite of what it's being suggested to mean. Actually, maybe it's not that weird, it sounds like some old fashioned redbaiting, to hit clueless liberals and discredit other leftists at the same time.
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May 23, 2016 21:56
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kaynorr posted:Democrats need to put their money where their mouth re: so much poo poo Preachin' to the choir buddy.
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May 23, 2016 21:57
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:That just kind of blows my mind because it's so weird to try to tar white liberals in the modern day with a 100-year old anarchist slogan that means basically the opposite of what it's being suggested to mean. Actually, maybe it's not that weird, it sounds like some old fashioned redbaiting, to hit clueless liberals and discredit other leftists at the same time. I've seen it most used towards people who write for Jacobin and the like, who now complain all the time about "identity politics" ruining leftism.
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May 23, 2016 21:58
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No Class But War Class
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May 23, 2016 21:59
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Badger of Basra posted:I've seen it most used towards people who write for Jacobin and the like, who now complain all the time about "identity politics" ruining leftism. same, as a fellow POC voter there's definitely a segment of the white left that thinks that everything went to poo poo when us uppity nonwhites (and women and gays) stabbed the white working class in the back by rising up and demanding basic dignity as citizens
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May 23, 2016 22:05
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Trabisnikof posted:What are you even talking about? Watching all of the well off white liberals itt shouting about those drat racist BernieBros whenever sanders comes up is a pretty good example of this. There's a lot of well off liberals that have started to shout down people who want economic change by calling them racist/sexist/transphobic. Economic issues affect minorities and women in much greater numbers than anyone else but we can't talk about economic equality for ~reasons~. I mean yeah there's some poo poo people out there (ex. Reddit posters) and gently caress them, but there's a very intentional thing going on where the center left is trying to marginalize the emerging far left as racist/sexist.
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May 23, 2016 22:08
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Business Gorillas posted:Watching all of the well off white liberals itt shouting about those drat racist BernieBros whenever sanders comes up is a pretty good example of this. There's a lot of well off liberals that have started to shout down people who want economic change by calling them racist/sexist/transphobic. Economic issues affect minorities and women in much greater numbers than anyone else but we can't talk about economic equality for ~reasons~. Funny that you assume those of us complaining are white....
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May 23, 2016 22:11
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Badger of Basra posted:I've seen it most used towards people who write for Jacobin and the like, who now complain all the time about "identity politics" ruining leftism. Sure, there are vulgar Marxists, social chauvanists, and even thinly-disguised Nazis running around out there -- but I don't think I've ever seen any of them use the phrase "no war but class war" in the manner the thread seems to be suggesting (which makes sense because of its history and context as a slogan). It reads like a perfect storm of bad faith redbaiting.
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May 23, 2016 22:12
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Business Gorillas posted:Economic issues affect minorities and women in much greater numbers than anyone else but we can't talk about economic equality for ~reasons~. minorities aren't poorer than whites because of the nebulous economy, it's because they're typically shut out of participating in the economy. increasing the size of the economy won't help as much as removing institutional barriers to participation which sanders doesn't address as often as he promises to increase the economy it sounds like a good idea if you don't have to face institutional racism often
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May 23, 2016 22:12
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/05/23/verdict-freddie-gray-police-trial-due-monday/84767208/quote:Baltimore cop acquitted in Freddie Gray death https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ML59QL4iUk
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May 23, 2016 22:16
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Dexo posted:Funny that you assume those of us complaining are white.... Did I say that everyone who was talking about this was a rich white person or that a lot of people who talk about this happen to be middle-class and white through their own admissions in the various iterations of this thread?
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May 23, 2016 22:21
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Business Gorillas posted:Did I say that everyone who was talking about this was a rich white person or that a lot of people who talk about this happen to be middle-class and white through their own admissions in the various iterations of this thread? quote:Watching all of the well off white liberals itt So well off might not be the same a rich, depending on your definition of rich and well off, but other than that...
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May 23, 2016 22:24
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Torpor posted:Ah the progressive cause of nationalist struggles. Which is why I put it as a struggle progressives feel that "no war but class war" has to be said to supersede. But look at you! You almost had a burn, there! Good try, champ. Keep your eye on that ball and one day you'll get a hit.
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May 23, 2016 22:24
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  Separated at birth?
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May 23, 2016 22:25
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:It reads like a perfect storm of bad faith redbaiting. Yep. A lot of centrist Democrats react very poorly to the notion that anyone could find them insufficiently left wing. Love me, I'm a liberal What I'm saying is we need to get us a social movement than can do both
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May 23, 2016 22:26
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No War But Race War. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ6cp2T76lY
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May 23, 2016 22:26
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Business Gorillas posted:Economic issues affect minorities and women in much greater numbers than anyone else but we can't talk about economic equality for ~reasons~. So you're saying... a rising tide lifts all boats?
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May 23, 2016 22:33
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By the way Terry McAuliffe is getting hit with an FBI investigation presently.
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May 23, 2016 22:33
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Business Gorillas posted:Watching all of the well off white liberals itt shouting about those drat racist BernieBros whenever sanders comes up is a pretty good example of this. There's a lot of well off liberals that have started to shout down people who want economic change by calling them racist/sexist/transphobic. Economic issues affect minorities and women in much greater numbers than anyone else but we can't talk about economic equality for ~reasons~. It's not just reasons, the reason is always given that all economic leftists must be exactly as racist/sexist as the people who implemented the New Deal. That Communists have been completely written out of fighting for Civil Rights plays a part in it or when people acknowledge that is always with a well they didn't really care about black people they just wanted them to be communists. That communist, socialist and progressive political parties and unions a century back had different levels of acceptance of POC a century back doesn't matter if there were socialist parties that accepted black members cause there were ones that didn't. gently caress this thread has practically labeled Cornell West persona non grata cause he criticized Obama and endorsed Bernie Sanders so now he doesn't count anymore cause he sided with those racist white socialists. gently caress issues of race and class are heavily intertwined in America and both need to be tackled and it's stupid when people say it's over way or the other. But liberals don't want to tackle economic issues cause that scares off the investor class which is the real base of the democratic party. Even from major progressive figures like Bill DeBlasio who is still more concerned with helping developers and pulled back from putting a collar on the cops in New York when it looked like they were gonna stage a coup (let alone how this thread argued his CPT joke wasn't racist, I really would have like to see the reaction of he had said that if he had endorsed Sanders). I really can't wait for this election to be loving over gently caress the American system I wish we could wrap this up in under a month cause I don't think I can take another 6 months of Arzying or liberals acting like they're the real left
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May 23, 2016 22:34
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NYPD and FDNY brawl during charity football game ironically nicknamed ‘Fun City Bowl’ (WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE)quote:The NYPD and FDNY have a long history of working together as one to save lives in New York City. But put them together on a field of play and all hell usually breaks loose. Luckily no choke hold deaths or broken spines.
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May 23, 2016 22:34
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Business Gorillas posted:Watching all of the well off white liberals itt shouting about those drat racist BernieBros whenever sanders comes up is a pretty good example of this. There's a lot of well off liberals that have started to shout down people who want economic change by calling them racist/sexist/transphobic. Economic issues affect minorities and women in much greater numbers than anyone else but we can't talk about economic equality for ~reasons~. The thing is, no one actually says not to talk about economic inequality. In fact, it's become a major principle of even the center-left in the last ten years. The shoutdowns, silence, and vague shrugs almost universally come from economic leftists when social issues come up, not vice versa. To put it another way, if you're to the right of the "center left" on some major equality topics, you're probably not really that far left. That doesn't mean you're secretly a klansman, it just means you shouldn't try insisting you carry the banner of true leftism. Maybe being a colorblind marxist or whatever was really inclusive back in the day when "we should be nice to black people even though they're inferior" was still considered liberal or tolerant, but those days are over.
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May 23, 2016 22:41
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Nocturtle posted:I personally have been very happy about recent progress in gay rights but you can't cast the last several years as anything other than a disaster for progressives. Take for example election results: 1) I took your comment as stating there hasn't been significant liberal progress in the last several years. 2) You are not stating anything that anyone that has nominally been paying to politics for the last several months doesn't already know. 3) You are ignoring (or ignorant of) of events that are taking place in the state level, from the raising the minimum wage, the alliance between farmers and liberal outreach groups in states like Nebraska (that successively blocked the Keystone pipeline, at least for the short term future), to successive state level legislation like Oregon's Automatic Registration Law to New York's Paid Family Leave act. Or the fact that despite efforts to stop it in red states, Obamacare is still saving lives. quote:But officials say there is also little question that the half-billion dollars in ACA funding sparked significantly greater cooperation among thousands of hospitals. On pressure ulcers and adverse drug reactions, “we already had practices that we knew had worked,” another official said, but the Partnership for Patients took it to the next level by involving thousands of hospitals in a concerted effort to promote those practices. The law also created the CMS Innovation Center, which tests new ideas at participating hospitals for delivering better service without increasing costs. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...patient-deaths/ I'm trying to pinpoint what I find off about your posts. Its something like an odd combination of smugness and hopelessness.
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May 23, 2016 22:43
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Amergin posted:So you're saying... a rising tide lifts all boats? Yes but I think he's forgetting that lots of people have been systematically denied boats or had their boats sabotaged. On the other hand solving systematic racial issues completely would still leave a huge underclass so there really is no point in trying to just solve one of these.
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May 23, 2016 22:45
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Are there any actual leftists on this forum who don't support both left wing social issues and left wing economic issues? As was pointed out by others above this whole thing feels more like redbaiting to me. I mean I remember a few debates on relative priority in the early days of the Bernie thread but pretty quickly everyone admitted social issues were extremely important and the two sets of issues were effectually linked and inextricable from one another. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:That just kind of blows my mind because it's so weird to try to tar white liberals in the modern day with a 100-year old anarchist slogan that means basically the opposite of what it's being suggested to mean. Actually, maybe it's not that weird, it sounds like some old fashioned redbaiting, to hit clueless liberals and discredit other leftists at the same time. Thanks for spelling this out effectively -- I was thinking the same thing but having a hard time figuring out how to phrase it. At worst/best "no war but class war" is a 100 year old somewhat outdated anti-actual-shooting-war slogan, not something I hear actual modern leftists actually use ever. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:52 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 22:47
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Killer robot posted:The thing is, no one actually says not to talk about economic inequality. In fact, it's become a major principle of even the center-left in the last ten years. The shoutdowns, silence, and vague shrugs almost universally come from economic leftists when social issues come up, not vice versa. Here's a thing to keep in perspective: in 1930 the US had only 12.5 million non-white residents out of 122 million total. Unsurprisingly, tons of people had never met a non-white person outside of a service industry position if at all, and they didn't consider it a big deal to discriminate against them. As of 2010, there's now 85.2 million out of 308 million US residents who aren't white. But some people still want to act like it's 1930... Hieronymous Alloy posted:Are there any actual leftists on this forum who don't support both left wing social issues and left wing economic issues? Yes, I'd link you some of them but that might be considered helldumping.
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May 23, 2016 22:51
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Killer robot posted:The thing is, no one actually says not to talk about economic inequality. In fact, it's become a major principle of even the center-left in the last ten years. The shoutdowns, silence, and vague shrugs almost universally come from economic leftists when social issues come up, not vice versa. This - you can be sending the DOJ out to law enforcement organizations with racism issues while also passing meaningful economic reforms, and nobody's going to say it's wrong to include "wealth inequality is a real issue and I intend to make significant progress on resolving it during my administration" as part of your platform. It's when economic inequality becomes an all-purpose hammer and starts being treated as a better way to address racial inequality than doing stuff like taking disparate enforcement seriously as a federal issue when cities and states don't that people start wondering what your problem is. e: You can sort of see where the "economic empowerment is better" issue relates to current events, with various jurisdictions treating disadvantaged populations as a citation revenue source. It's a little backwards (the racism drives the revenuing, not the other way around, and simply getting everyone better pay and benefits won't do much outside increase the ability to pay bullshit tickets and fines) but there's a crossroads there that I can see folks pointing to as an example of where economic inequality drives racial inequality because it vaguely fits the argument - there wouldn't be a power imbalance if minorities weren't bankrupted by tickets and fines, etc. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 23:00 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 22:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Are there any actual leftists on this forum who don't support both left wing social issues and left wing economic issues? As was pointed out by others above this whole thing feels more like redbaiting to me. There are a couple of people in YCS who I can think of, but that forum is a madhouse
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May 23, 2016 22:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Are there any actual leftists on this forum who don't support both left wing social issues and left wing economic issues? As was pointed out by others above this whole thing feels more like redbaiting to me. I saw it in USPol threads this fall after BLM interrupted Bernie. At least a couple of posters whined that Bernie's economic plan was all that those people needed and that interrupting Bernie to bring up new issues was making him look bad and also distracting from his ability to champion his 'true' message. It was pretty tone deaf and patronizing. But I don't remember poster names so for all I know they stopped posting months ago or joined YCS TrumpMania.
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May 23, 2016 23:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Are there any actual leftists on this forum who don't support both left wing social issues and left wing economic issues? As was pointed out by others above this whole thing feels more like redbaiting to me. I'm sure there are a handful but yeah this slapfight on the left is getting really out of hand based on practically little actual disagreement. This debate has been growing more and more heated over the past few weeks to the point where we're about to split into warring factions over whether race/gender/sexuality should be priority 1a and economic class 1b or vice versa. Pretty much all of the left agrees that both are critical issues but we're sitting here screaming at each other over whether the chicken or the egg came first. Meanwhile the other side is predictably falling in line behind an actual quasi-fascist demagogue who's somehow gaining in the polls.
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May 23, 2016 23:10
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Thankfully the vast majority of democratic voters aren't part of the intellectual leftist circular firing squad. They'll vote for Hillary with few qualms because they like her and know how awful Trump would be. The vast majority don't hold some bullshit 'ideological purity at all costs' mindset.
Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 23:15 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 23:13
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A lot of Bernie's platform simply pretends the Republican Party doesn't exist to rain on his Berning revolution and that racism doesn't either.
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May 23, 2016 23:13
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I know, Reddit, but check out the top thread in here: https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/4kodw8/im_not_with_her_why_millenial_women_are_weary_of/ That's the kind of poo poo I'm hearing from people in RL, not just on the internet, the "identity politics!" and "economics are the root of all problems" bullshit especially. I see less of it on these forums than elsewhere, which is why they're tolerable enough for me to post on, but we did have to deal with a lot of idiots talking about "low-info voters" and "name recognition" when Clinton was sweeping southern states.
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May 23, 2016 23:15
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Eschers Basement posted:I saw it in USPol threads this fall after BLM interrupted Bernie. At least a couple of posters whined that Bernie's economic plan was all that those people needed and that interrupting Bernie to bring up new issues was making him look bad and also distracting from his ability to champion his 'true' message. It was pretty tone deaf and patronizing. Yeah I remember those debates too but they didn't last long -- from what I remember at least pretty quickly everyone admitted it was all important and intermingled. It was only even a short term thing because initially Bernie wasn't raising racial issues but then he broadened his platform and started talking explicitly and directly about social issues. At this point it seems like arguing over whether people should walk first or chew gum first instead.
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May 23, 2016 23:16
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Rhesus Pieces posted:This debate has been growing more and more heated over the past few weeks to the point where we're about to split into warring factions over whether race/gender/sexuality should be priority 1a and economic class 1b or vice versa. Just to keep things grounded, the discussion here has been pretty civil. Meanwhile IRL all my Dem pals are mostly Arzying over Trump, sharing the occasional Hillary Rocks article, or, and this is most of them, not really saying anything because we've got another couple of months before anything really interesting happens in the election. (No primary chat, just noting their behavior.)
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May 23, 2016 23:16
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A lot usually posted in the reparations threads whenever we had them.
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May 23, 2016 23:18
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r/politics is not representative of literally anything. Neither is the Bernie reddit which has gone completely off the deep end at this point. Like holy poo poo is it bad in there. The Bernie reddit has like 20 times the amount of members and activity than the Hillary reddit does and Bernie has had far and away more hashtags supporting him than Hillary. None of it has meant poo poo for actual voter opinions and turnout.
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May 23, 2016 23:18
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I know, Reddit, but check out the top thread in here: https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/4kodw8/im_not_with_her_why_millenial_women_are_weary_of/ Reddit is a cesspool though. Like a third of the the posts in Reddit political threads belong on Stormfront and another third are fakeposting trolls taking deliberately extreme positions to gin up discord.
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May 23, 2016 23:18
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I'm stunned that noted bag man Terry McAufilie has issues with campaign contributions
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May 23, 2016 23:18
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FAUXTON posted:This - you can be sending the DOJ out to law enforcement organizations with racism issues while also passing meaningful economic reforms, and nobody's going to say it's wrong to include "wealth inequality is a real issue and I intend to make significant progress on resolving it during my administration" as part of your platform. It's when economic inequality becomes an all-purpose hammer and starts being treated as a better way to address racial inequality than doing stuff like taking disparate enforcement seriously as a federal issue when cities and states don't that people start wondering what your problem is. There is an optics issue here that many people think (rightly or wrongly, I honestly don't know) that there is a thing called "political capital" that is limited in quantity and has to be spent to make things happen like loving culture points in Civ or something. So in this frame, there is a point where progress along one agenda comes at the expense of the other agenda. This is probably very true when it comes to practically anything that involves legislation, and a lot less true when you're talking about the president ordering around the executive branch. We'll see what happens with the next administration, but for the last eight years Obama has been allergic to really swinging the executive dick around to his detriment. From the financial crisis onward he has been unwilling to flex executive power to balance out the sheer inactivity of Congress - it's not suprising then that people think that change in federal policy is a scarce resource, Obama has been treating it like water in the desert for the last eight years. It's not.
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May 23, 2016 23:20
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https://twitter.com/kopalo/status/719962946928033792 Not quite the same as political capital, but similar concept and problem of buzzwords about what is and isn't possible producing pre-cognitive closure.
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May 23, 2016 23:24
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