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Works with a thrown knife or an arrow, though, both of which use Athletics. (Archery via Athletics is, IIRC, one of the major differences between normal CofD and Dark Eras.)
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# ? May 23, 2016 19:30 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 06:45 |
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Mors Rattus posted:Works with a thrown knife or an arrow, though, both of which use Athletics. (Archery via Athletics is, IIRC, one of the major differences between normal CofD and Dark Eras.) I guess the RP reason would be enchanting the projectile with the spell as it's being propelled?
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# ? May 23, 2016 19:37 |
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Kibner posted:I guess the RP reason would be enchanting the projectile with the spell as it's being propelled? Not necessarily. You're using the action of throwing a knife/drawing an arrow as a mystic template for the spell. Theoretically you could use a Forces spell to heat up your coffee in the morning and chokeslam your roommate through a table for the Yantra - but that would probably get you frowned at by the other Arrows.
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# ? May 23, 2016 19:46 |
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Well, the main thing is you can't do that one because heating up your coffee has no symbolic link with chokeslamming someone. A Yantra still has to have a symbolic link tot he spell you're using it for. So, what spells does the act of throwing a knife at someone have symbolic resonance with?
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# ? May 23, 2016 19:50 |
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If I stone cold stunner someone through the table instead could I then cool my drink?
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# ? May 23, 2016 19:56 |
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Mors Rattus posted:Well, the main thing is you can't do that one because heating up your coffee has no symbolic link with chokeslamming someone. A Yantra still has to have a symbolic link tot he spell you're using it for. So, what spells does the act of throwing a knife at someone have symbolic resonance with? So to heat up my coffee I'd have to set my roommate on fire.
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# ? May 23, 2016 19:56 |
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Are you folks SURE Adamant Hand lets you cast a spell as a reflexive action that isn't normally a reflexive action? Because I'm not. As far as I can tell, what Adamant Hand does is let you, on a spell on which you're going to use two yantras rather than one, do it like this: Turn 1: Attack Turn 2: Then perform a rote mudra, cast with a big bonus ...rather than this: Turn 1: Chant or wave your wand around or whatever Turn 2: Then perform a rote mudra, cast with a big bonus It's a bit weird that it doesn't allow use of firearms. It's not like the Arrow formally disdains guns or something. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 23, 2016 |
# ? May 23, 2016 19:57 |
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Ferrinus posted:Are you folks SURE Adamant Hand lets you cast a spell as a reflexive action that isn't normally a reflexive action? Because I'm not. As far as I can tell, what Adamant Hand does is let you, on a spell on which you're going to use two yantras rather than one, do it like this: Yantra rules - the first Yantra use is allowed to be on the same turn as casting, every additional Yantra adds one full turn. The Adamant Hand rules explicitly note this with their 'reflexive cast' bit, though they seem to imply that you don't get the Yantra bonus if you take reflexive use of Adamant Hand. This is, however, how all Yantras work, except High Speech which specifically notes that it always takes a full extra turn, even if it's your first Yantra.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:03 |
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Mors Rattus posted:Yantra rules - the first Yantra use is allowed to be on the same turn as casting, every additional Yantra adds one full turn. The Adamant Hand rules explicitly note this with their 'reflexive cast' bit, though they seem to imply that you don't get the Yantra bonus if you take reflexive use of Adamant Hand. This is, however, how all Yantras work, except High Speech which specifically notes that it always takes a full extra turn, even if it's your first Yantra. Yes, you can use the first Yantra reflexively. Yantras don't change the action actually required to cast a spell. Conceivably Adamant Hand is supposed to let you attack as a reflexive action, but it definitely doesn't let you cast Celestial Fire or Enervation or something as a reflexive action.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:14 |
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Ferrinus posted:Yes, you can use the first Yantra reflexively. Yantras don't change the action actually required to cast a spell. Conceivably Adamant Hand is supposed to let you attack as a reflexive action, but it definitely doesn't let you cast Celestial Fire or Enervation or something as a reflexive action. It's the only way I can read the merit that makes any sense at all, so it's the reading I'm sticking with. quote:This Merit allows use of that Like, if this text doesn't mean 'you can attack/dodge and also cast a spell as the same action' then I don't know how to read it.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:16 |
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Mors Rattus posted:It's the only way I can read the merit that makes any sense at all, so it's the reading I'm sticking with. The Merit makes perfect sense as written and has absolutely no language indicating that instant spells become reflexive spells. In fact, it tells you that instant spells have to be cast after the attack, while reflexive spells can be cast on the same turn. "Reflexive yantra" is a yantra you can draw on as a reflexive action, but drawing on a yantra just means, like... thinking about it and using the inherent mnemonic device to add dice to an upcoming spellcasting roll. For instance, you could drawn on a "standing in a beam of moonlight" yantra as a reflexive action even as an unschooled apostate. If you're an Arrow, you can reflexively draw on a "just punched my enemy in the face" yantra, rather than spending your next turn aligning your Imago with the act's symbolic significance and therefore taking an effective three turns to throw a spell in combat.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:18 |
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kaynorr posted:Getting the basics that any cabal needs/wants can fill a few sessions and can serve as an excellent tutorial into just how much mages can skip over material needs/wants and go directly to summoning unlimited numbers of shotguns. The initial checklist can look something like Thank you for your reply! I'm creating various Mentors for each Path in each Order, so that each of the neophyte PCs can see an example of what their Path decides to do in each Order, and how their Path's internal ethos manifests through their philosophies. This game is about exploration in a lot of important ways, so there will be plenty of options.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:18 |
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The way I heard it explained is that Adamant Hand doesn't let you cast more, but it does let you cast without dropping out of the fight.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:25 |
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Ferrinus posted:Are you folks SURE Adamant Hand lets you cast a spell as a reflexive action that isn't normally a reflexive action? Because I'm not. As far as I can tell, what Adamant Hand does is let you, on a spell on which you're going to use two yantras rather than one, do it like this: That seems like it's right. There are martial arts styles that incorporate things like rifle stocks, but that seems more like it's to be used as a weapon and falls under Weaponry. If Athletics covers bows and throwing knives, which are also ranged weapons, I don't see why Firearms would then be excluded. As far as the 1E Arrow Order book said afaik, the Order frowns upon favoritism regarding weapons of choice, and the like. Warriors are not meant to prefer one tool over another, but use them all for the purpose for which they were designed. I also specifically recall spells from 1E that were aimed through bullets, like Aim For the Dead or Sharpshooter's Eye.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:41 |
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The main arguments in favor of Adamant Hand not working with firearms are probably these: 1. The Arrow's guiding fantasy archetype is basically a D&D adventurer, and those don't use guns (or if they do the guns are crappy and unreliable) 2. Firearms attacks don't read your enemy's Defense or any of their other traits, so you're not REALLY engaging with your enemy in some kind of dramatic, enlightening contest by shooting them rather than punching or stabbing them 3. Firearms are too good relative to other weapons and shouldn't be able to buff your spells when you use them 1 isn't really convincing to me, and neither is 3 since it's not like becoming able to apply your Defense to firearms attacks is that rare among monsters or other actually-challenging-for-an-Arrow combatant. 2 isn't that different from 1 when you get right down to it, especially since as far as I can tell AH doesn't require your Skill use to succeed, just be attempted. So, all in all, I'd probably just allow Firearms to trigger the Merit.
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# ? May 23, 2016 20:56 |
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Ferrinus posted:The main arguments in favor of Adamant Hand not working with firearms are probably these: Yep. It's so much more simplified than 1E that one could easily just allow the Adamant Hand user to buy the two-dot Merit in Firearms as well as Athletics, Brawl, and Weaponry.
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# ? May 23, 2016 21:37 |
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Beastchat will probably be running hot until the F&F is over, I wouldn't fight the flow. What's so bad about Mummy?
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:00 |
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Mummy is not offensive, it just has some lovely TN-shifting mechanics and fluffwise would feel more at home alongside Werewolf: the Apocalypse or other oWoD lines.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:03 |
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Kurieg posted:If I stone cold stunner someone through the table instead could I then cool my drink? Only if it's beer.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:06 |
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The problem with Mummy is basically that a) it is really hostile to the standard "3-5 people each playing a monster" style of White Wolf game, and is actively deceptive about this fact, and b) Mummy society makes no sense because mummies are corpses 90% of the time and amnesiac most of the rest, and this fact is not taken into account. Oh, and the ST section is sealed away from player eyes even though it includes a bunch of things players need. It does have some really strong writing, though, and a powerful central metaphor. I actually dislike it more than Beast, because I wanted to like it.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:08 |
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Ferrinus posted:Are you folks SURE Adamant Hand lets you cast a spell as a reflexive action that isn't normally a reflexive action? Because I'm not. As far as I can tell, what Adamant Hand does is let you, on a spell on which you're going to use two yantras rather than one, do it like this: Much as it pains me to admit it (hi Ferrinus!) he's right. It doesn't allow you to cast a spell reflexively if you couldn't already. What it does let you do is fight or use a full dodge in the run up to a spell, while your colleagues from other Orders are stood there like muppets chanting in High Speech or waving wands around
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:10 |
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Much as it pains me to admit it (hi Ferrinus!) he's right. It doesn't allow you to cast a spell reflexively if you couldn't already. ...ah. Welp! I should probably tell this to my Arrow players.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:11 |
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Much as it pains me to admit it (hi Ferrinus!) he's right. THE END IS COMING (That's still fairly useful though)
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:14 |
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Mors Rattus posted:All I have on that is the rumor mill that Rose Bailey intensely dislikes Beast and is very unhappy with how it turned out. Rose wrote more of Beast than I did. She wrote the splats.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:19 |
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Yeah, I know. That doesn't change what I've heard. But again, rumor mill.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:20 |
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Yaaay that sounds nifty. It's a little thing, but I especially like that it explicitly calls out that it's street-level because the antagonists are normal-and-organized. I feel like that could lend itself pretty well to running a good "evading a conspiracy" game without either playing mortals in turn, or running into the "and this plot armor/constant escalation of power dice pools is why you can't just power your way out of this situation" that I feel like you'd get into running it with another line. It's my intent that the antagonist Conspiracy will scale somewhat to an individual Deviant. Play Sarah Manning, get Neolution. Play Bruce Banner, get the US Army.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:25 |
Ferrinus posted:The main arguments in favor of Adamant Hand not working with firearms are probably these: :adjusts trench coat: haven't any of you heard of... Gun kata!!!
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:26 |
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Mors Rattus posted:Well, the main thing is you can't do that one because heating up your coffee has no symbolic link with chokeslamming someone.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:27 |
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It's more like "it's supposed to be a Martial Art that is in some ways an Order Tool" and Gun-Kata being... Well... If you want Gun-Kata, roll up an Acanthus with Forces and become the Unstoppable Gunman. You don't need Adamant Hand to do that.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:28 |
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Rand Brittain posted:The problem with Mummy is basically that a) it is really hostile to the standard "3-5 people each playing a monster" style of White Wolf game, and is actively deceptive about this fact The game literally provides the most detailed instructions out of all 1e games on how to structure chronicles, and the line includes a canonical chronicle, and the line provides an entire book of historical chronicle frameworks during periods when virtually all protagonists are active.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:44 |
Despite my post, no one wants gun kata. Now, if this was oWoD...
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:48 |
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MalcolmSheppard posted:The game literally provides the most detailed instructions out of all 1e games on how to structure chronicles, and the line includes a canonical chronicle, and the line provides an entire book of historical chronicle frameworks during periods when virtually all protagonists are active. I think that's a little deceptive? Let's please not do this. Mummy has information on how to structure chronicles, but all of that information is basically working around the fact that for most purposes "everybody makes a mummy and you play in the modern era" doesn't actually work. (Not that Mummy tells players this, though, which is why the character creation section is all about building your own Arisen and cult.) The game does include a canonical chronicle, but it largely ignores all the elements that make running a bunch of mummies together problematic. The bit about having a book full of historical periods where everybody is active is true, though.
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# ? May 24, 2016 00:56 |
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Rand Brittain posted:I think that's a little deceptive? Let's please not do this. One of the periods where everyone is active is the present day.
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:04 |
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Libertad! posted:What's so bad about Mummy? Nothing on the scale of the wrongness of Beast, but:
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:07 |
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Dave Brookshaw posted:It's more like "it's supposed to be a Martial Art that is in some ways an Order Tool" and Gun-Kata being... Well... You don't need Adamant Hand to become the unstoppable boxer or whatever either, and yet it's good that it's there to help. I don't think there's really a good argument for Arrows not taking guns as seriously as they take knives.
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:11 |
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Mummy can work, but you need to be really, really willing to wrestle with it, you're almost required to read the later books where the line starts hitting a stride, and most groups I know would probably end up discarding more than a bit of its mechanical/fluff oddities. However, if you get it to click, you can basically play the pulp adventures of The Nameless One, on a quest of self-discovery that involves bitch-slapping ancient devourer-gods so hard all their minions go "the gently caress was that!?" at the same time, which is something you can't really say about any of the other games.
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:16 |
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Frankly, the way the 2E Arrow is written up, Adamant Hand should really let you make a Yantra out of your use of any 3+ rated Skill on your character sheet in any context.
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:18 |
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Daeren posted:However, if you get it to click, you can basically play the pulp adventures of The Nameless One, on a quest of self-discovery that involves bitch-slapping ancient devourer-gods so hard all their minions go "the gently caress was that!?" at the same time, which is something you can't really say about any of the other games. I'unno, that could be a particularly rocky, especially metal Promethean journey. You're right that there is cool material there in Mummy, and while I couldn't see myself running it and don't expect to end up playing in a game of it, the Arisen and the history of their Nameless Empire have a lot of crossover value. There's a certain kind of frustration you can find in a flawed game that you can't muster for a failed one.
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:25 |
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Ferrinus posted:Frankly, the way the 2E Arrow is written up, Adamant Hand should really let you make a Yantra out of your use of any 3+ rated Skill on your character sheet in any context. I thought (based on vague remembering) that Adamant Hand is literally a supernally infused martial art. Like, it's the actual motions and forms and mindset that make it a tool and significant. Can 2e Mages still share Mage Sight when it's no longer a spell? "Hey guys, we're heading into ghostville, here's your ghostvision"?
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:25 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 06:45 |
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You can Pattern Prime to reconfigure someone else's soul such that they have the same mage sight you do.
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# ? May 24, 2016 01:28 |