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dont respond to bravestofthelamps
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May 25, 2016 17:30
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| # ? May 10, 2024 00:17 |
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They both have the characters acting dumb so that the fights can happen. Civil War even has that scene where Falcon reasonably suggests they bring Tony their new info, and Cap refuses because he
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May 25, 2016 17:38
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Aphrodite posted:Civil War even has that scene where Falcon reasonably suggests they bring Tony their new info, and Cap refuses because he Probably the funniest thing in CW
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May 25, 2016 17:38
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It seems a bit forced to say "a character thinks he can't trust another character and is wrong about that" is inherently bad writing, especially when the film itself reveals it isn't the first time he kept information from Tony fearing his response. The same also applies to BvS where characters make mistakes in assuming the intentions of other characters.
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May 25, 2016 17:43
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Aphrodite posted:They both have the characters acting dumb so that the fights can happen. Cap is also hiding the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents from him. Keeping a way smaller secret than that is going to be enough to sour a relationship. Even if he had been justifying it to himself as 'sparing Tony's feelings', on some level it means he's thinking "I can't trust Tony with this information", which is going to turn into "I can't trust Tony". Now, Tony does make some poor decisions all on his own, like trying to keep Wanda confined without getting her consent, but because of Cap's own actions, he really isn't willing to ever give Tony the benefit of the doubt on his mistakes.
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May 25, 2016 18:00
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Shoulda just wrote a letter when he figured out from Zola about Tony's parents getting murdered. Tony seems to respond well to letters.
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May 25, 2016 18:01
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Superman has absolute power, and this unsettles people, including Batman and Superman himself. They fight, manipulated by Luthor. Vs The establishment wants to supervise and control the Avengers, them the Avengers start fighting over Bucky, and then they fight over Bucky for different reasons, manipulated by Zemo. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:18 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 18:15
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Aphrodite posted:They both have the characters acting dumb so that the fights can happen. Steve does tell Tony what's up at the airport and Tony's response is "don't care gonna arrest you anyway"
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May 25, 2016 18:17
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Superman has absolute power, and this unsettles people, including Batman and Superman himself. They fight, manipulated by Luthor. Superman doesn't fight Batman because of any ideological conflict. He fights Batman because Luthor wants to burn his mother alive (and because Batman won't listen to anything he says and Superman gets pissed about it). The actual conflict of anyone not named Batman is basically brushed aside and Batman's own resolution has nothing to do with absolute power.
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May 25, 2016 18:20
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Yes, Steve does tell Tony and Tony doesn't take his word for it because he thinks it is a convenient excuse to not bring Bucky in. He also has a time deadline to bring Cap in to Ross and Cap has a time deadline to get to the Hydra base before Zemo (he thinks) is going to activate the other Winter Soldiers. Tony only believes him after he gets the hard evidence.
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May 25, 2016 18:21
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e: nah
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Aug 18, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 18:26
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Batman sees a possible future in which Superman is a dictator (i.e., somone who wields absolute Power).
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May 25, 2016 18:26
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Batman sees a possible future in which Superman is a dictator (i.e., somone who wields absolute Power). Yes, and that has nothing to do with the actual fight which is instead about Batman proving he can beat up Superman while Superman desperately begs him to help save his mom, resolved when a chance word means Batman views Superman as a human instead of a god and for some reason that resolves his concerns and he instantly switches to Team Superman. There's no actual resolution to the "if there's even a 1% chance that he goes bad we have to take it as a certainty" mindset. Batman just decides "Well okay maybe a 1% is worth risking because he isn't that bad a guy and also there's a Doomsday to fight." The idea of Batman being Bat-Racist and getting over is dealt with in the film. The concerns about a human with absolute power are absolutely not or even handwaved at.
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May 25, 2016 18:30
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ImpAtom posted:Superman doesn't fight Batman because of any ideological conflict. He fights Batman because Luthor wants to burn his mother alive (and because Batman won't listen to anything he says and Superman gets pissed about it). The actual conflict of anyone not named Batman is basically brushed aside and Batman's own resolution has nothing to do with absolute power. The climax of the doomsday fight and then the coffin teaser is about the absolute power issue. Superman is proven to be all good, and all powerful, disproving Lex's theory. The movie doesn't answer the governmental concerns regarding their role in the new superhero world, but maybe Justice League has an answer that. ImpAtom posted:There's no actual resolution to the "if there's even a 1% chance that he goes bad we have to take it as a certainty" mindset. Batman just decides "Well okay maybe a 1% is worth risking because he isn't that bad a guy and also there's a Doomsday to fight." And that's absolutely the right call. Bruce is quoting Dick loving Cheney when he states if there's a 1% chance we must act. e: It's never supposed to be treated as "right" or the actual argument to engage with because it's patently wrong.
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May 25, 2016 18:33
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, and that has nothing to do with the actual fight It summarises why he wants to kill Superman.
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May 25, 2016 18:38
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MacheteZombie posted:The climax of the doomsday fight and then the coffin teaser is about the absolute power issue. Superman is proven to be all good, and all powerful, disproving Lex's theory. The movie doesn't answer the governmental concerns regarding their role in the new superhero world, but maybe Justice League has an answer that. Superman isn't proven to be all-powerful though. That's the entire point of the Batman fight. He loses and in his weakness displays his humanity to Batman. Lex is proven entirely right that someone can't be both all-powerful and all-good but it is also proven that doesn't matter. Superman is a man, not a God, and that is enough. (For Batman, at least.) MacheteZombie posted:And that's absolutely the right call. Bruce is quoting Dick loving Cheney when he states if there's a 1% chance we must act I am aware. That doesn't mean that it is countered. It is supposed to be wrong but the film doesn't actually counter why it is wrong, it just takes it as a given you agree. We see within the confines of the film itself Superman comes a hair away from flipping out and his mother's potential death is hinted at being an extreme Injustice-style breaking point for him. There's no resolution. It doesn't say anything. It just says "Superman is good!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:42 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 18:40
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Why do you need to be told that murdering someone out of fear is a bad thing?
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May 25, 2016 18:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Why do you need to be told that murdering someone out of fear is a bad thing? Because the central premise of the film is that a character needs to be told this and it's worthwhile to actually have them discover it? Especially in the current climate where "they're a risk so we should kill them" is not actually an argument you don't hear regularly.
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May 25, 2016 18:48
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ImpAtom posted:Superman isn't proven to be all-powerful though. That's the entire point of the Batman fight. He loses and in his weakness displays his humanity to Batman. Lex is proven entirely right that someone can't be both all-powerful and all-good but it is also proven that doesn't matter. Superman is a man, not a God, and that is enough. (For Batman, at least.) I was mostly drawing the all powerful point from the resurrection stuff since it effectively shows him as an immortal. I do agree the fight with Batman is purposely used as an example of how Superman can be stripped of his all power status.
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May 25, 2016 18:49
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redbackground posted:As far as he knows, he just has a dream, which is probably the worst reason to go and kill someone. Didn't turn out so well for MLK Jr.
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May 25, 2016 19:31
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The establishment wants to supervise and control the Avengers, them the Avengers start fighting over Bucky, and then they fight over Bucky for different reasons, manipulated by Zemo. The accords weren't the central conflict, but a backdrop of the setting that helps raise the stakes and back up the movies primary themes or accountability. The central conflict was always concerning Bucky and whether he should be held accountable for his apparent crimes. Tony thought he should be, to lesser or greater extent through the movie, but Cap disagreed knowing they where not his fault.
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May 25, 2016 19:34
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He wants to kill superman because he made him feel like a little man. His dialouge during the fight is quite smug, and he takes obvious pleasure in making him bleed with the spear. Then he does a complete 180 because they couldnt end the movie with him still suspicious I guess.
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May 25, 2016 19:38
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Arctic Baldwin posted:just saw x-men apocalypse. some pretty fun scenes but takes a while to get going. apocalypse looks and sounds pretty dopey imo Well, Sinister is the most 90s of all villains
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May 25, 2016 19:41
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glitchwraith posted:The accords weren't the central conflict, but a backdrop of the setting that helps raise the stakes and back up the movies primary themes or accountability. The central conflict was always concerning Bucky and whether he should be held accountable for his apparent crimes. Tony thought he should be, to lesser or greater extent through the movie, but Cap disagreed knowing they where not his fault. That makes sense, but it means that the Avengers are basically a pointless addition to the story about Bucky Barnes and accountability.
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May 25, 2016 19:42
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And you certainly can't think of any characters that were pointless additions to Batman v Superman!
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May 25, 2016 19:46
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I could've done without Batman.
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May 25, 2016 19:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The establishment wants to supervise and control the Avengers, them the Avengers start fighting over Bucky, and then they fight over Bucky for different reasons, manipulated by Zemo.
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May 25, 2016 19:52
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twistedmentat posted:Well, Sinister is the most 90s of all villains Wrong. Stryfe is Spoiled that just out of fear that it would trace all the way back to the original spoiler.
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May 25, 2016 20:00
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The Lord of Hats posted:Cap is also hiding the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents from him. No he's not. Tony thought his parents died in an accident. Cap knew they were murdered. He didn't know Bucky was the one who murdered them.
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May 25, 2016 20:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That makes sense, but it means that the Avengers are basically a pointless addition to the story about Bucky Barnes and accountability. No more pointless than any supporting cast in an action movie. While the characters where obviously included for spectacle, many served notable roles towards the theme. Wanda and Vision are both good people with good intentions causing major accidents with their power. Both Black Panther and War Machine end up victims of unaccounted power, the former finding compromise between vengence and mercy. Hawkeye, Black Widow, Falcon, and War Machine are connected to the conflict due to their relationship with Cap, Tony, and the government agencies they all ostensibly work with, so it makes sense to include them even if they are on the periphery of the conflict. As far as I can tell, Ant-man and Spider-man are the only characters who could be cut out without changing the overall story.
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May 25, 2016 20:31
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Jamesman posted:No he's not. Tony thought his parents died in an accident. Cap knew they were murdered. He didn't know Bucky was the one who murdered them. In Winter Soldier, Steve is literally shown "Howard Stark Dead" followed by a picture of Bucky and Zola says "when people wont do what we say or are out of our control, we have the Winter Soldier take them out". It's pretty clear he knew there.
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May 25, 2016 20:39
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Cap didn't know. Whether you choose to believe it's honest ignorance or willful self-deception, that's up to you, but Steve says he didn't know, and there's no reason to disbelieve him at that point.
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May 25, 2016 20:41
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Cap says he suspected.
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May 25, 2016 20:51
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twistedmentat posted:In Winter Soldier, Steve is literally shown "Howard Stark Dead" followed by a picture of Bucky and Zola says "when people wont do what we say or are out of our control, we have the Winter Soldier take them out". inaccurate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5FZkuu9vII
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May 25, 2016 20:57
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And he did know they were murdered by Hydra, which he declined to tell Tony. I always figured that that's part of why Tony went berserk. Steve's always been THE stand-up guy and paragon of morality, and Tony grew up with his father constantly talking about how great and wonderful Steve is. Steve admitted that not only did he know Tony's parents were killed by Hydra and didn't tell him but that he's defending the murderer of Tony's parents. The ensuing battle is the sound of a very lofty pedestal falling to the ground.
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May 25, 2016 20:59
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Cythereal posted:And he did know they were murdered by Hydra, which he declined to tell Tony. The movie also established the death of his parents as really central to his life. It basically frames his greatest regret as not appreciating his parents before they were gone, and here's the source of his greatest shame right in front of his face.
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May 25, 2016 21:02
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Phylodox posted:Cap didn't know. Whether you choose to believe it's honest ignorance or willful self-deception, that's up to you, but Steve says he didn't know, and there's no reason to disbelieve him at that point. No, Cap says he didn't know it was Bucky, but then Tony presses him again and Cap says "Yes." He lied at first because he was trying to calm Tony down. But after Cap says yes, that's when Tony starts the fight.
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May 25, 2016 21:04
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I still see Zola saying "Winter Soldier killed Howard Stark the way he killed Fury" in that clip. Also this is dumb as poo poo http://collider.com/x-men-apocalypse-deleted-scenes-jubilee/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial Of all the major 90s as gently caress X-men, Jubilee is the best after Cable.
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May 25, 2016 21:13
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Tony makes a move to Bucky just as the tape ends, Cap places his hand on Tony's shoulder, "Tony Tony" A sullen Tony collects his thoughts for a moment before looking into Cap's eyes, "Did you know?" Cap, "I didn't know it was him" Tony, stirring with anger leans in a bit as his eyes brim with tears he's holding back "Don't bullshit me Rogers, did you know?" Cap, "Yes." Tony shakes back a step, clearly heartbroken by the news. He gives the moment a pause, then strikes Cap and the fight with Bucky begins.
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May 25, 2016 21:14
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The funniest part of Civil War will always remain the out-of-nowhere random kiss they included just to make sure that the entire film wasn't about Captain America's desperate lust for Bucky, only 99% of it.
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May 25, 2016 21:16
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