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EvilJoven posted:I'm sure the second someone tried to introduce it every pilot union would scream blue bloody murder. I would say it has rules similar/same as the CVR, i.e. only gets looked at if there is a crash/other event that currently gets the CVR and FDR looked at.
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May 25, 2016 02:27
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EvilJoven posted:I'm sure the second someone tried to introduce it every pilot union would scream blue bloody murder. Yeah, but I bet video from Federal Express Flight 705 would be unbelievable.
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May 25, 2016 02:32
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Hermsgervørden posted:Is flight deck video for the flight data recorder a thing? Shouldn't it be? I installed a "Appareo Vision 1000" system in some corporate turboprop that didn't have a FDR. It's basically a dashcam with two mic inputs. We positioned it so it could see all the instruments and hooked into the "composite out pre-amp" which is comm1, comm2, and intercom. It also recorded ambient cabin/cockpit noises with an external mic. Fairly sweet system, but a little bit hokey on the electrical side of things. It was probably literally a G1W with different firmware that cost $2500 because aviation.
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May 25, 2016 02:48
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"Because aviation", that answer to all of life's important questions. Well, OK, one important question; "why is this so horrifically expensive?" The day I found out that a gas cap for the Cherokee Im learning to fly in goes for somewhere around $300 
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May 25, 2016 03:11
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Kilonum posted:I would say it has rules similar/same as the CVR, i.e. only gets looked at if there is a crash/other event that currently gets the CVR and FDR looked at. FDR gets read all the time. CVR has to be for Serious poo poo only, and can only be be read by an independent investigator. CVR can also be erased on ground, so the pilots can bitch out the company all they like before they depart, hit erase, and then repress all that hatred into a ball of heavy, awkward silence for the remainder of the flight.
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May 25, 2016 03:26
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FDR data gets read all the time, but (at least among US airlines) there are fairly elaborate procedures in place to ensure management isn't accessing it for punitive purposes. Where I work, the computer system where the FDR data is stored can only be accessed by a small number of union-approved "gatekeepers", and any identifying information (like the flight number) is automatically stripped from the data after a few days to make it impossible for management to use the FDR readouts for any kind of disciplinary action against specific crews. azflyboy fucked around with this message at 05:24 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 05:21
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EvilJoven posted:"Because aviation", that answer to all of life's important questions. Low run parts that require engineering time are expensive, yes.
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May 25, 2016 05:23
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azflyboy posted:FDR data gets read all the time, but (at least among US airlines) there are fairly elaborate procedures in place to ensure management isn't accessing it for punitive purposes. Interesting, we use it all the time for maintenance investigation, and the people who do the request for data download and who do the analysis are all "management". And since we make the request and know the flight number we're making the request for, it wouldn't be difficult to know who the crew was. Not that we care, not our department. hobbesmaster posted:Low run parts that require engineering time are expensive, yes. Not just that, but traceability as well. If the Cherokee fuel cap leaks and the aircraft catches fire because of it, burning the occupants to death, once the lawsuits and criminal negligence cases start, the question will be "did you use the approved fuel cap", and if your answer is "errr, it might a pattern part we got cheap off alibaba...", you are hosed. Similarly if you answer, "yes" and the follow up question is "can you prove it", and you can't show documentation back to the manufacturer proving that the o-rings used to seal it weren't made from reject Chinese chewing gum, you are at least lower case hosed.
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May 25, 2016 06:05
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Oh, believe me, I know *why* this poo poo can become seemingly stupidly expensive, but still, $300 gas cap. It's kinda like how the only difference between a specialty bolt that costs $12.50 and one you can get from home depot for 75c is the cheap one will shear off and get a bunch of people killed because it was meant to hold a clothes line together and not an aircraft. Same with the difference between marine engine components and automotive engine components is the automotive engine components will fit perfectly, cost 30% less and also eventually cause your boat to burn to the waterline. But still, $300 gas cap.
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May 25, 2016 06:28
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Inacio posted:
Is that a deep fryer?
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May 25, 2016 06:33
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Gorilla Salad posted:Is that a deep fryer? Wonder how much you'd pay for an aviation grade fry basket.
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May 25, 2016 06:39
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Linedance posted:Interesting, we use it all the time for maintenance investigation, and the people who do the request for data download and who do the analysis are all "management". And since we make the request and know the flight number we're making the request for, it wouldn't be difficult to know who the crew was. Not that we care, not our department. I'm not 100% sure how our setup runs in regards to maintenance, but I believe that maintenance has access to the raw FDR data for their purposes, and the data is also put into the FOQA (Flight Operations Quality Assurance FOQA) system, where it eventually has the identifying information stripped out and gets used for identifying fleetwide trends that might need to be addressed. EvilJoven posted:But still, $300 gas cap. Once you get to parts sourced from single suppliers, things get even more absurd. On the Q400, the combiner for the HUD (a piece of glass about the size of a paperback book that the HUD image is projected onto) is something like $20,000 to replace, despite the fact that it's just a piece of glass with zero moving parts or electronic components. azflyboy fucked around with this message at 07:02 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 06:51
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EvilJoven posted:But still, $300 gas cap. If you work in the industry or a related one it really makes sense when you see the man-hours and paperwork that go into every-single-loving-part and component. Electronics are the worst offenders (military side), most aircraft radar cpus probably run at something like 500mhz-1ghz tops and use 10 year old technology because it was all custom made and way more planning/effort went into it's manufacture per part then the motherboard/ram/computer you're typing on right now. The poo poo has to work 99.99% of the time and you need traceability incase something breaks. Yeah, a $300 gas cap is absurd, but when you're only making 100 of them a year using o-rings that you can trace to the rubber manufacturer so that your plane doesn't start to spew fuel in flight, it makes sense. It's also why aviation is expensive and fairly safe. e: Just don't lose your gas cap.
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May 25, 2016 06:51
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Plinkey posted:e: Just don't lose your gas cap. They go missing so frequently in the airline world and nobody blinks an eye, just gets another from stores and installs it, that it just goes to show how little $300 is in the context of aircraft parts!
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May 25, 2016 07:12
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Linedance posted:They go missing so frequently in the airline world and nobody blinks an eye, just gets another from stores and installs it, that it just goes to show how little $300 is in the context of aircraft parts! Yeah, probably similar to $5k test cables in the spacecraft world. "Oh we just used it a few months ago, it's gone? Fine, buy another one, get it here ASAP"
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May 25, 2016 07:16
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azflyboy posted:I'm not 100% sure how our setup runs in regards to maintenance, but I believe that maintenance has access to the raw FDR data for their purposes, and the data is also put into the FOQA (Flight Operations Quality Assurance FOQA) system, where it eventually has the identifying information stripped out and gets used for identifying fleetwide trends that might need to be addressed. FOCA (Q? That makes sense, I never actually knew what it stood for) data is usually the preferred data source because it captures more parameters, but sometimes FDR data is the more expedient or convenient method.
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May 25, 2016 07:21
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Captain Apollo posted:Ugh - total suckage for the Delta pilots. Nightmare scenario. For the F-16 pilots certainly. Helios 522 must have been at the back of their minds the entire time.
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May 25, 2016 08:32
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azflyboy posted:Once you get to parts sourced from single suppliers, things get even more absurd. On the Q400, the combiner for the HUD (a piece of glass about the size of a paperback book that the HUD image is projected onto) is something like $20,000 to replace, despite the fact that it's just a piece of glass with zero moving parts or electronic components. Learjet glareshield lighting (panel floods). Two CCFLs. $6200 each, and they're not made anymore, so it's all NOS, which apparently ran out a couple of months back. They have a great big manufacturer name on there, so we called them (as they still have the FAA PMA), and they said they'd make another 50,000 at $2700 each if we want to stock those. The math didn't work out for us, as we just wanted two. I'm thinking the supply houses are seeing that the last 50,000 lights lasted since 1984, how many of these era Lears are even still flying, so why is it worth remaking this part? Then we found an LED strip that's an approved replacement. Only $480 and it's literally three parallel strands of white LEDs on a board and three resistors. Also, that same gas cap costs different depending on the aircraft you say it's for. Identical part number and traceability, but the Cessna one is $300, the Beech one is $170, the Hawker one is $550, and the 737 one is $95. If you say you've got a 737, you can get gaskets and screws for replacement, but if you ask Cessna, they tell you it's non-repairable and you have to buy a whole new one. The most disturbing part about that is Beech and Hawker are both owned by Raytheon aircraft, so it's the same supply chain management guy giving you two different prices.
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May 25, 2016 11:37
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Linedance posted:They go missing so frequently in the airline world and nobody blinks an eye, just gets another from stores and installs it, that it just goes to show how little $300 is in the context of aircraft parts! If it's less than about $800, unless we already know it's easily/cheaply repairable, we consider most parts disposable/consumable. Some stuff significantly more expensive than that, too, but we do at least track those... "Can you just scrap that $15k windscreen? It's not repairable." - This has been said to me several times. Edit: My favourite is still a particular piece of tooling you can buy from Boeing. I forget exactly what it's for, but it is literally a bog standard double-ended wrench, cut in half to make two short tools, filed smooth on the cut ends and put in a plastic box. Sold for like $500. Brovine fucked around with this message at 11:41 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 11:38
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Brovine posted:If it's less than about $800, unless we already know it's easily/cheaply repairable, we consider most parts disposable/consumable. Some stuff significantly more expensive than that, too, but we do at least track those... Oh yeah, the airline guys from across the pad were amazed that we were polishing the crazing out of the windows. When they get a certain number of crazed windows in one of their jets, they replace them all. It's $300/window + 1 hour to remove crazing, or $500/window + 7 minutes to replace. Comparing 6 windows to 118 windows, labor and time become significant. Especially when you want to turn around a jet in one shift, and you can throw multiple guys at replacing windows, but there's only one or two polishing kits.
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May 25, 2016 11:45
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Polishing windows is messy and lame as gently caress to do.
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May 25, 2016 12:11
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The traceability for the Boeing part is probably gonna be different because they require a different set of approved suppliers for their materials than Cessna does
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May 25, 2016 15:50
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Plinkey posted:If you work in the industry or a related one it really makes sense when you see the man-hours and paperwork that go into every-single-loving-part and component. 99.9%? You're off by orders of magnitude. I just reviewed reliability analysis (mil-std-217f) for a complex box thats upwards of 800,000 hours MTBF. Yes, that's right, 91 years between failures. Not one of the components, the whole system integrated together. Some individual components are rated at over 30,000,000 hours...
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May 25, 2016 20:34
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Murgos posted:99.9%? You're off by orders of magnitude. Too bad they rarely live up to that.
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May 25, 2016 20:40
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A lot of the MTBF numbers are basically made up from a small amount of data.
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May 25, 2016 20:43
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Godholio posted:For some reason there's an EF-111 at the Silver Springs, NV puddle jumper airfield. They tow it out of the way to conduct a motorcycle safety course then put it back. There's also an F-111 (and a C-123) at the airport in Battle Mountain, NV, a couple of hours away. The gently caress are you doing in silver springs?
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May 25, 2016 20:48
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Murgos posted:99.9%? You're off by orders of magnitude. When LockMart got the F-35's computer to crash only every ten hours instead of every four hours as before, the USAF said "okay, cool, good enough, we'll accept it like that"
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May 25, 2016 20:53
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Plinkey posted:Electronics are the worst offenders (military side), most aircraft radar cpus probably run at something like 500mhz-1ghz tops and use 10 year old technology because it was all custom made and way more planning/effort went into it's manufacture per part then the motherboard/ram/computer you're typing on right now. Missed replying to this bit earlier: The radar altimeters in a 737NG run on a 386. The entire modular avionics system on board the E-jet is built around a bunch of Pentium M CPUs - it was originally Pentium 2s but all of ours have the upgraded version installed.
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May 25, 2016 20:54
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The most disturbing part about that is Beech and Hawker are both owned by Raytheon aircraft, so it's the same supply chain management guy giving you two different prices. Even better than that, Textron now owns Beech and Hawker, in addition to Cessna. So, you now have one company making Cessna Citations and 172s, Beechcraft Bonanzas and King Airs as well as Hawker...Hawker...well, you get the point.
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May 25, 2016 21:51
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Mr. Wiggles posted:The gently caress are you doing in silver springs? I work at Fallon so I'm around. Recently had a meeting with some National Guard guys in Carson, and there was a motorcycle course going on at the time. Brovine posted:Missed replying to this bit earlier: I've mentioned this before, but the AWACS mission computer is a 4Pi supported by JOVIAL programming. The fleet is undergoing it's first computer modernization (except for when they replaced the reel-to-reel memory with a reel-to-reel EMULATOR in the late '90s). Godholio fucked around with this message at 23:29 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 23:22
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Godholio posted:I work at Fallon so I'm around. Recently had a meeting with some National Guard guys in Carson, and there was a motorcycle course going on at the time. Well drat. I work in silver springs, is why I was wondering. Nobody knows where that place is.
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May 25, 2016 23:32
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Yeah if I hadn't moved here last year I'd have no idea. It's just an odd place to find a jet like that. Wikipedia says it's being restored, but I don't know if I believe that.
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May 25, 2016 23:34
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E-jet modules are junk that will break solders or simply not load if you sneeze in the general direction and cost any from 60k for custon I\O to 120k for NiM proc cards.
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May 26, 2016 00:13
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JSTARS have: Compaq Alphaserver ES40s DEC AlphaServer SUN SparcServer IBM Blade Servers HP Proliant DL380s etc. etc. etc.
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May 26, 2016 00:16
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Greataval posted:E-jet modules are junk that will break solders or simply not load if you sneeze in the general direction and cost any from 60k for custon I\O to 120k for NiM proc cards. loving nim proc cards.
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May 26, 2016 00:18
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CommieGIR posted:JSTARS have: This is probably very similar to what AWACS is getting in the Block 40/45 upgrade. When I got out only 2 or 3 aircraft were done, so I actually never saw one inside. 
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May 26, 2016 00:37
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Godholio posted:This is probably very similar to what AWACS is getting in the Block 40/45 upgrade. When I got out only 2 or 3 aircraft were done, so I actually never saw one inside. This is our original config
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May 26, 2016 00:47
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Hopefully not sparcservers if they're not retarded, jesus christ I'd have a hard time coming up with a worse machine to put on an airplane. Itaniums maybe? Or a whole loving IBM mainframe? Sparc does not have a good reputation for power/heat performance.
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May 26, 2016 01:33
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Isn't there a potential issue with ultrasmall process architecture and the higher ambient radiation once you get into thinner atmosphere?
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May 26, 2016 01:48
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Mortabis posted:Hopefully not sparcservers if they're not retarded, jesus christ I'd have a hard time coming up with a worse machine to put on an airplane. Itaniums maybe? Or a whole loving IBM mainframe? Sparc does not have a good reputation for power/heat performance. Sounds like a lowest bidder to me.
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May 26, 2016 01:49
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