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drunken officeparty posted:I'll say it again, I don't think they have the balls to make Dany "feminist girl power icon" into the villain. I dont think even GRRM will (would) do that. Dany is like his imaginary girlfriend
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May 25, 2016 22:06
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Elias_Maluco posted:I dont think even GRRM will (would) do that. Dany is like his imaginary girlfriend Dany, his imaginary girlfriend, making GBS threads wet stool in a field?
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May 25, 2016 22:11
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Eh, I don't think Dany is going to turn evil. The main tension in ASOIAF is that it's a series that wants to have its cake and eat it too (insert a lol Gurm fat joke here): it wants to simultaneously deconstruct a lot of lovely tropes in '90s fantasy while also telling a riveting story in the same vein. It's one of the key problems GRRM has run into in his novels and the show has hit the skids numerous times in the same way: it wants to be both awesome and heroic as well as gritty and realistic (to an extent). So while we will definitely see Jon and Dany taking more questionable decisions that show off they are inherently flawed human beings with dark aspects, I never got the vibe the story is setting up Dany to become the ultimate antagonist. An antagonist and someone who causes a lot of death and suffering to a lot of people, certainly, but not someone who is actually rotten to the core like Euron, Ramsay or Joffrey. My money has always been on the ending being that Westerosi society has all but collapsed and that it'll be up to Jon, Dany and Tyrion to try and begin the long process of reconstruction, holding a glimmer of hope to try and create a more just society, e.g. by abolishing a lot of the more complicated aspects of feudalism in Westeros, ending slavery in Essos and improving the fate of women and the very poorest strata of society. At the same time, they'll contemplate on the immensity of the cost of it all: two continents utterly ravaged by war, the return of magic as a factor in everyday life and the loss of a lot of traditions that made both Westeros and Essos workable societies to an extent. Also, to get back an an earlier topic of underlings assassinating the ruler to become ruler themselves, I understand it's a bit of a drag to some people but in very unstable eras this is really depressingly common. E.g. in de Roman Empire, after the flawed but relatively stable years under the dynasty started by Septimius Severus, there were about 30 years of emperors and counter-emperors constantly getting killed by their own men. The Roman Empire would have likely crumbled at that point if it hadn't been for Diocletian to introduce a lot of new systems to deal with new complexities and realities that basically gave the Empire a new lease for like 50 years before things went completely tits up again in the latter half of the 4th century. Since GRRM is a historian, it's not a stretch to imagine that he had eras like that in mind.
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May 25, 2016 22:17
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A Strange Aeon posted:Dany, his imaginary girlfriend, making GBS threads wet stool in a field? GRRM is the proud owner of a shitdick, he's into that kinda stuff. You know he got a boner while writing about a maid of four-and-ten getting hosed by a brutal nomad warlord.
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May 25, 2016 22:18
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GRRM's idea of woman empowerment was to have Dany gently caress better while getting raped.
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May 25, 2016 22:55
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I kinda feel bad for Dany in her more human moments. The girl just wants to live a quiet life in the house with the red door, but believes she needs to be a messiah.
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May 25, 2016 23:13
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the jizz taxi posted:Eh, I don't think Dany is going to turn evil. The main tension in ASOIAF is that it's a series that wants to have its cake and eat it too (insert a lol Gurm fat joke here): it wants to simultaneously deconstruct a lot of lovely tropes in '90s fantasy while also telling a riveting story in the same vein. It's one of the key problems GRRM has run into in his novels and the show has hit the skids numerous times in the same way: it wants to be both awesome and heroic as well as gritty and realistic (to an extent). So while we will definitely see Jon and Dany taking more questionable decisions that show off they are inherently flawed human beings with dark aspects, I never got the vibe the story is setting up Dany to become the ultimate antagonist. An antagonist and someone who causes a lot of death and suffering to a lot of people, certainly, but not someone who is actually rotten to the core like Euron, Ramsay or Joffrey. Yeah, I've long thought that many members of this forum are way too confident that Danaerys is evil. She's made some questionable decisions, but ultimately she still is empathetic to the plight of people and a lot of the motivations behind her questionable actions are based on that. I think in the last book GRRM was trying to avoid turning her into a Mary Sue who is amazing at everything and so he set up the idea that while she's good at conquering, she's not particularly adept at ruling and is also a bit immature because she's still young. I think he overdid it a bit, particularly with her annoying pining over Daario, but none of it really gave me the impression she was insane or evil. My take on it was always that she'd maybe initially see Jon as a threat and enemy, but eventually find out he's her nephew and unite with him I figure she gets to Westeros and first sees fake Aegon and deals with him as the mummer's dragon from the prophecy with some poo poo involving him as a Blackfyre and all that. Then she'll hear about Jon up North and the Others and initially be skeptical about him too, but find out he's a real Targ and a good guy and they team up. Then probably one of them will die for good in the conflict with the Others and the other will live and rule with Tyrion or something. Or maybe the kingdom gets split back into 7 separate kingdoms again. And it'd be nice if for at least one chapter, he dedicated some time to showing the full extent of the devastation wrought on the smallfolk as a result of all these dumb wars.
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May 25, 2016 23:19
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In It For The Tank posted:I fully expect that when Show Dany teams up with Yara and the Sand Snakes in the coming seasons (don't deny it, it's gonna happen), the showrunners are going to think that viewers will be enthused by this expression of female agency and empowerment in a man's world, when really it just looks like the creation of an axis of evil. This sounds about right, I've been thinking about that myself. Especially because Yara isn't even like Asha, a person who realized the futility of sacrificing more human lives in pursuit of some silly conqueror fantasy and wanted to ally with the North against their enemies, and is instead more like a young woman version of Victarion.
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May 25, 2016 23:20
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Well there's also that entire 3-book summary he gave the publisher back in the days where he described the trilogy as having three antagonists each introduced in the next book and each upping the stakes from mundane to ridiculous. It was laid out as Starks vs Lannisters (mundane) in book one, remaining Starks vs. a dragon queen invading from the east in book 2, and survivors of the previous books vs. an ancient icy threat from the north in the finale. There have been several changes since then in the plotting (Tyrion and Jaime being flat villains, Arya and Jon loving), but Dany's plot and the Others plot is mostly intact to that original description. The only difference is that he extended the books waaaaaaaay too long, so what should have been a clever way of giving us the inner thoughts of a villain has turned into a meandering series of chapters that seemed to have nothing to do with any other character in the story.
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May 25, 2016 23:42
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Snatch Duster posted:Then Ser Pounce shows up with an army of skeletal dragons and wielding a valerian steel dagger from his mouth. ser sif...
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May 25, 2016 23:50
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Apparently the first book was also supposed to not have any Daenerys POV chapters at all originally, so it would've been a surprise to the reader when the dragon queen conqueror talked about in the first book is actually a young girl who isn't always sure what to do.
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May 26, 2016 00:09
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Minor correction: Tyrion wasn't a flat villain. He was the grey, conflicted antagonist that switches sides and joins the Good Guy Team. And he had the hots for Arya.
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May 26, 2016 00:18
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Well there's also that entire 3-book summary he gave the publisher back in the days where he described the trilogy as having three antagonists each introduced in the next book and each upping the stakes from mundane to ridiculous. It was laid out as Starks vs Lannisters (mundane) in book one, remaining Starks vs. a dragon queen invading from the east in book 2, and survivors of the previous books vs. an ancient icy threat from the north in the finale. There have been several changes since then in the plotting (Tyrion and Jaime being flat villains, Arya and Jon loving), but Dany's plot and the Others plot is mostly intact to that original description. The only difference is that he extended the books waaaaaaaay too long, so what should have been a clever way of giving us the inner thoughts of a villain has turned into a meandering series of chapters that seemed to have nothing to do with any other character in the story. I want to read these books.
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May 26, 2016 00:55
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Kajeesus posted:I was recently reminded of this passage from a Clash of Kings: Nah that was intentional red herring for the miller's boys. With the exception of character arc prophecies (Cersei's "Valonqar", Daenerys "up down left right", Daenerys "love blood money", Daenerys "three headed dragon"...jesus christ, most of her plot is driven forward by crazy rambling) every prophecy has been self contained within it's own book. - Ned's death prophecy happens in book 1, he dies in book 1. - Jojen's prophecy of the sea coming to Winterfell and Bran and Rickon dieing happens in book 2, Theon invades Winterfell and the miller's boys die in book 2 - Arya listens to the prophecy of Robb's and Joffrey's death and Sansa slapping Robyn in book 3, they all happen in book 3 - Daenerys "pale mare" prophecy happens in book 5, Aegon, Quentyn, Tyrion, Victarion, Moqorro all are explicitly heading towards Daenerys in book 5. I mean, you have to give it to Gurm, he is savvy enough to know no one would remember some vague rear end prophecy in one book taking effect in another when he takes 6+ year to publish them unless he goes out of his way to draw the reader's attention to it ala "Did your father never tell you this story Bran? ....But are you sure he has never told you this story?...GDI Bran try to think back, your father must have told you this" lezard_valeth fucked around with this message at 01:35 on May 26, 2016 |
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May 26, 2016 01:33
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I'm kinda worried about the ending if two of the three standout moments were Hold The Door and Shireen's death.
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May 26, 2016 03:49
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drunken officeparty posted:I'll say it again, I don't think they have the balls to make Dany "feminist girl power icon" into the villain.
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May 26, 2016 04:01
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They don't have to make her a conventional villain, just keep her as a delusional and incompetent ruler like she is right now.
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May 26, 2016 04:05
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She can just burn something down again and instead of everyone bowing to her they run away screaming.
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May 26, 2016 05:30
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TOOT BOOT posted:I'm kinda worried about the ending if two of the three standout moments were Hold The Door and Shireen's death.
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May 26, 2016 05:42
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TOOT BOOT posted:I'm kinda worried about the ending if two of the three standout moments were Hold The Door and Shireen's death. Let's be real: after 20 years of gurm speed writing literally no ending will not have been predicted or theorized and ultimately will be disappointing for a large portion of the audience. Which is irrelevant because we're never getting the end of the book series anyway
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May 26, 2016 06:02
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Kithkar posted:Let's be real: after 20 years of gurm speed writing literally no ending will not have been predicted or theorized and ultimately will be disappointing for a large portion of the audience. yea i have serious worries that a 67 year old heavily overweight sickly man will finish a series of novels it now takes him 5 to 7 years to produce each
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May 26, 2016 06:19
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lezard_valeth posted:With the exception of character arc prophecies (Cersei's "Valonqar", Daenerys "up down left right", Daenerys "love blood money", Daenerys "three headed dragon"...jesus christ, most of her plot is driven forward by crazy rambling) every prophecy has been self contained within it's own book. Bran has a vision of FrankenGregor in Book 1. Also of Jon's death http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dreams_and_prophecies#Bran_Stark But yeah I agree that Jojen's dream is referring to the miller's boys.
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May 26, 2016 06:46
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colonel_korn posted:Bran has a vision of FrankenGregor in Book 1. Also of Jon's death http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dreams_and_prophecies#Bran_Stark Yeah, most of the prophecies are contained to the book they're in, but not all of them (Cersei's entire life is dictated by Maggie the Frog). But the ones that really span across books is his foreshadowing, which I personally think he has a true talent for. "Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name." "Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone" "The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised". And if the show spoilers are correct, they actually have a bit of it too - Tormund Giantsbane kills Smalljon, whose sigil is a giant breaking chains
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May 26, 2016 07:10
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Steve112sms posted:Yeah, I've long thought that many members of this forum are way too confident that Danaerys is evil. I don't think she's evil, or "turning evil". I think she's an emotionally volatile, angry, self-righteous teenage girl/young woman. She is frequently out of her depth when dealing with politics and matters of state, she has a weakness for dangerous men, and she keeps terrifyingly clever gigantic monsters that belch fire as pets. She'll never be a conventional black hat, but she's a ticking time bomb and it's only a question of whether she brings tragedy on others or herself first. And for what it's worth, I feel the same way about Jon and Arya; there are a lot of messed up kids who were forced to grow up too early with chips on their shoulder and dangerous tools/friends/ideas in Westeros. Baku fucked around with this message at 08:33 on May 26, 2016 |
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May 26, 2016 08:30
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onemillionzombies posted:GRRM's idea of woman empowerment was to have Dany gently caress better while getting raped.
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May 26, 2016 08:54
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24-7 Urkel Cosplay posted:And if the show spoilers are correct, they actually have a bit of it too - Tormund Giantsbane kills Smalljon, whose sigil is a giant breaking chains I think in the books it will be the Greatjon breaking out of captivity. 24-7 Urkel Cosplay posted:"Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone" "The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief?" Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 09:02 on May 26, 2016 |
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May 26, 2016 08:56
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Zypher posted:If this means there's only one GRRM-sanctioned Shocking Twist left in the entire series, we're in for a hell of a predictable and boring conclusion. maybe the twist was that he actually had an idea how the books end.
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May 26, 2016 09:06
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Daenerys 'turning evil' or 'being the ultimate antagonist' would have made sense if she was the only character in her story. But there's too many characters surrounding her, either originally from her story or characters who've joined her, and their stories haven't been 'is Daenerys the person I should be following.' If she ends up being bad it's just kind of a waste of time. At least with Stannis the whole 'maybe this isn't the person I should be following' thing was built into it from the very beginning.
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May 26, 2016 09:17
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Daenerys 'turning evil' or 'being the ultimate antagonist' would have made sense if she was the only character in her story. But there's too many characters surrounding her, either originally from her story or characters who've joined her, and their stories haven't been 'is Daenerys the person I should be following.' If she ends up being bad it's just kind of a waste of time. Surrounding Dany are characters who either revere her as a deity (The unsullied and the other freed slaves, Jorah, etc) or dudes who are quite unambiguously evil (Daario). The only character who serves her cause he's a good guy who decided Dany is the worthiest ruler is Barristan and that dude was pretty much looking for any Targaryen to follow and seeing the dragons and the fact that Dany has some good intentions was all he really needed, he was also egged on into it by the Varys\Illyrio faction whose motivations are seemingly anything but benevolent. To further hit the nail home we have the red priesthood take her side and we have no cause to view those guys as anything other than demon worshipers. My point is that it's just more subtle but there are numerous reasons to think that the cult of personality surrounding Dany is just that, Dany is not necessarily the best leader (that's Jon) she's just a person people naturally worship.
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May 26, 2016 09:47
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So while it may look like Leaf is just shoving a big piece of obsidian into this man's chest, she may be shoving in a computer chip.
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May 26, 2016 09:52
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Ague Proof posted:So while it may look like Leaf is just shoving a big piece of obsidian into this man's chest, she may be shoving in a computer chip. Preston's utter lack of ability to say "Look, the show does certain things cause they look cool and it's not necessarily the way things will happen in the books" is very silly.
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May 26, 2016 09:55
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Surrounding Dany are characters who either revere her as a deity (The unsullied and the other freed slaves, Jorah, etc) or dudes who are quite unambiguously evil (Daario). The only character who serves her cause he's a good guy who decided Dany is the worthiest ruler is Barristan and that dude was pretty much looking for any Targaryen to follow and seeing the dragons and the fact that Dany has some good intentions was all he really needed, he was also egged on into it by the Varys\Illyrio faction whose motivations are seemingly anything but benevolent. Yeah, but it's different in the show. All the changes in the show make the people surrounding her better and nicer and more good. Presumably because the people making the show know she isn't supposed to be bad. Tyrion, Varys, Jorah, Grey Worm, Missandei, Barristan, Daario in the show all those people aren't just blind followers. Even Jorah isn't. There's also only two books left and we know, for example, that Tyrion won't immediately find her in the next one. Is he going to spend two books finding someone only for that person to be evil?
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May 26, 2016 10:00
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't think she's evil, or "turning evil". I think she's an emotionally volatile, angry, self-righteous teenage girl/young woman. She is frequently out of her depth when dealing with politics and matters of state, she has a weakness for dangerous men, and she keeps terrifyingly clever gigantic monsters that belch fire as pets. The societal order falling apart and freeing previously unforeseen or bound agents to act (Jon, Ramsay and Ellaria as bastards, most of the women, Tyrion, dickless Theon; hell, even Missandei and Grey Worm as prior slaves) is one of my favourite themes of this story. It would be a pity if the story ended like it started, with X people in charge of Y feudal houses and an Iron Throne.
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May 26, 2016 10:06
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Pedro De Heredia posted:There's also only two books left and we know, for example, that Tyrion won't immediately find her in the next one. Is he going to spend two books finding someone only for that person to be evil? I'd be very surprised if Dany ended up a villain but I think she'll appear as one to the people of Westeros, and may be tempted to pursue an 'easier' path by people like Euron or Tyrion who have nastier motivations. If Aegon is revealed as a fake, that could be another push towards a darker Dany.
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May 26, 2016 10:10
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Surrounding Dany are characters who either revere her as a deity (The unsullied and the other freed slaves, Jorah, etc) or dudes who are quite unambiguously evil (Daario). I don't know that Daario is literally evil, though, at least no more than any other sellsword. He seems as loyal to Dany as a random college-age boyfriend might be, and if you ignore the fact that he kills people for a living, which isn't out of the ordinary in their society, he seems like a pretty level headed guy, maybe a bit sleazier and more arrogant than most, but not EVIL. Granted, I'm talking mostly about show Daario here - I don't remember the book version being much different, but its been a while. I do recall book Daario angrily presenting the court with the severed head of one of their enemies when he was upset that Dany was marrying Harzoo, but again, in their society, that seems more like angry lovesick college kid than real world serial killer.
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May 26, 2016 12:30
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Phenotype posted:I don't know that Daario is literally evil, though, at least no more than any other sellsword. He seems as loyal to Dany as a random college-age boyfriend might be, and if you ignore the fact that he kills people for a living, which isn't out of the ordinary in their society, he seems like a pretty level headed guy, maybe a bit sleazier and more arrogant than most, but not EVIL. Book Daario is meant to more or less be Dany's "Evil Shoulder Spirit" in that he personifies chaos and war and using her dragons for conquest but his character isn't really evil per se. He's just meant to give Dany the advice she wants to hear; that it's okay to be a Dragon. emanresu tnuocca posted:he was also egged on into it by the Varys\Illyrio faction whose motivations are seemingly anything but benevolent. We don't know anything about their end game other than maybe in favour of getting the Blackfyre's into power one way or another which includes marrying back into the main branch. quote:To further hit the nail home we have the red priesthood take her side and we have no cause to view those guys as anything other than demon worshipers. In the books? Not really. There's still too much mystery about them and for every dark action they've also been advancing the cause of the heroes; either the BWB hanging Freys, or Mel helping out Jon. The books have been way more subtle regarding them and their role w.r.t the Others. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 26, 2016 |
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May 26, 2016 14:41
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The original Daario actor pulled off the feeling of book Daario a lot better. The original guy just had a face and style of moving and speaking that made you wonder if he was being completely honest when he said things. Even when he is supposedly bowing down to a naked Dany you can't shake the feeling that something is wrong with the guy. In the book Daario is not a nice person, but he never does anything that is outwardly disloyal to Dany. However, his literal first act in the book is to kill his two partners because...love? Can that be true? Maybe...but it leaves the reader with doubts. He is a sexy weird violent dude that acts with motivations that are impossible to discern, which is why you end up with people theorizing insane poo poo about him being Euron, etc.
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May 26, 2016 14:53
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Daario is more a bad guy than he is evil. He's not batshit insane, he doesn't live only to kill and torment others, and he doesn't seem to hold any particularly strong hatred for anyone in particular or harbor any genocidal plots or anything, which makes him a lot less evil than a lot of villains in the series. But in large part why Dany is attracted to him is because he's crude, impulsive, violent, amoral, and without respect for others. Also he's a hired killer. He's the kind of guy that absolute monarchs aren't really supposed to hang out with, without being as nefarious as Tywin or as psychopathic as the Mountain.
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May 26, 2016 14:55
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In the books at least, Daario is more amoral than evil, he tries to convince Dany to settle all her problems with violence because that's what he does for a living and it's worked out well for him. He's leading her down the benevolent dictator path, compared to her other advisors who want her to be more of a compromising ruler. I doubt he particularly believes in her cause, but he is loyal to her, unlike Brown Ben Plumm who switches sides when he sees her losing, then switches back when he thinks she has a chance of winning. Maybe he's just playing the long game and wants to set himself up at her side when she rules.
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May 26, 2016 15:31
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Surrounding Dany are characters who either revere her as a deity (The unsullied and the other freed slaves, Jorah, etc) or dudes who are quite unambiguously evil (Daario). The only character who serves her cause he's a good guy who decided Dany is the worthiest ruler is Barristan and that dude was pretty much looking for any Targaryen to follow and seeing the dragons and the fact that Dany has some good intentions was all he really needed, he was also egged on into it by the Varys\Illyrio faction whose motivations are seemingly anything but benevolent. I wouldnt say Daario is "unambiguously evil". Amoral, yes And about the red priests, its funny how they are usually regarded as evil when they are the only faction in the world which seems to know and cares about the upcoming possible apocalypse. Thoros wanst evil are all; Mel did some pretty stupid and questionable poo poo but she sincerely believes she is working to save the world. And she did ressurected Jon, who is obvsiously the big hero of this story, along with Dany. For all we know, the Lord of Light religion is the one who acknowledges the WW threat and is working (in two fronts, Dany and TPtwP) to fight it, while the 7 gods faith is busy with politics and bugging gay men and promiscuous queens
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May 26, 2016 15:34
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