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Siivola posted:Sometimes I wonder how many workable things are hidden in traditional arts that have lost all context to their stuff because they don't fight people any more. I mean, apparently MMA peeps are finding uses for stuff like wide traditional karate stances and taekwondo high kicks nowadays? I'm pretty sure people used to look at those and go "no way no how would those actually work, the rules are just set up to favour them". I linked this discussion to you, but then I realized you were in it: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3409544&pagenumber=449&perpage=40#post452274399 mewse posted:From what I understand (which isn't much) the Chinese aren't really interested in MMA because they already have sanshou. Sanshou isn't that popular, and I think the new wave of MMA and kickboxing is give rise to new schools dedicated to normal/modern training, as opposed to giving sanshou places something to funnel their fighters into. Speaking of sanshou, I decided to do that tournament. Starting weight was 205 with lots of fat; need to hit 85kg or 187.4lbs on 6/3. Currently at 194.6. Saturday in sparring, I was getting pushed toward the ropes when I smelled somebody's coconut-based lotion and got hungry off that scent. I'm looking to do a very easy water cut of maybe 3-4 in the last 24hours, so still have some pounds to drop off. So far, this is the middle of the 3 weight cut / diet sequences I've done.
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May 23, 2016 17:11
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Siivola posted:Sometimes I wonder how many workable things are hidden in traditional arts that have lost all context to their stuff because they don't fight people any more. I mean, apparently MMA peeps are finding uses for stuff like wide traditional karate stances and taekwondo high kicks nowadays? I'm pretty sure people used to look at those and go "no way no how would those actually work, the rules are just set up to favour them". I'm hopeful that more things will emerge. For as long as I've been into MA and watching UFC/etc, I've noticed the arrogant 'bro' attitude has been on the decline, you know, the belief that either whoever is the champ has the best style or if it's not found in the cage then it's completely useless bullshido. Maybe it's just people in the Chicago suburbs who were like that, I dunno. I get very happy when I see unique/underutilized stuff in professional bouts, 3 times I really appreciated, once when I think it was Tim Boetsch utilizing a straight front kick to the abdomen/solar plexus to hold someone off for most of a fight to end up winning as a major underdog, then when A.Silva & Machida were front snap kicking people out cold there for a minute. Siivola posted:I'm kinda hoping MMA becomes a thing in China and the Shaolin monks get really into it, tbh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGZ8qgooYrQ
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May 24, 2016 06:46
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Chinese investors are going to buy up the UFC, so it is already happening...
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May 24, 2016 09:22
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I've been having a back and forth with some friends recently about a subject I'm sure has been covered to death here, but I'd like to ask if anyone training or trained in BJJ or traditional JJ has any experiential reports of using the style in a street fight, especially against more than 1 opponent. We can't seem to decide just how real the threat of going to the ground is in modern society and I'd like to get some actual personal takes on the subject if anyone has any.
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May 26, 2016 16:48
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Get in a street fight against multiple people and report your findings
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May 26, 2016 16:50
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DandyLion posted:I've been having a back and forth with some friends recently about a subject I'm sure has been covered to death here, but I'd like to ask if anyone training or trained in BJJ or traditional JJ has any experiential reports of using the style in a street fight, especially against more than 1 opponent. We can't seem to decide just how real the threat of going to the ground is in modern society and I'd like to get some actual personal takes on the subject if anyone has any. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EB-VQhkrTs
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May 26, 2016 17:05
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If you're outnumbered you lose. If you're surprised you lose. If they have any sort of weapon you lose. You will probably both fall over at some point. Lets just assume we will all always lose a "real life" action hero fantasy.
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May 26, 2016 17:28
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For the record though, if its a fair and even enough situation (its not) having training is unanimously better than having none unless your training is in throwing dragon ball z energy blasts.
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May 26, 2016 17:30
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I actually watched that earlier as I was perusing youtube for some footage of it. In essence it re-affirms what I've heard from several sources that you never want to go to the ground in a street fight. The point of contention is there are several interviews with the Gracie clan mentioning big streetfights and brawls wherein the Gracies' have just as much a reputation for dominance as they do in MMA. I'm trying to get some more evidence to either discount their bravado or re-affirm it.
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May 26, 2016 17:30
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Gracie bravado? Well I never...
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May 26, 2016 17:52
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DandyLion posted:The point of contention is there are several interviews with the Gracie clan mentioning big streetfights and brawls wherein the Gracies' have just as much a reputation for dominance as they do in MMA. I'm trying to get some more evidence to either discount their bravado or re-affirm it. I'd check out Gracie Challenge and vale tudo if you haven't already. Also Nierbo posted:Gracie bravado?
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May 26, 2016 18:35
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DandyLion posted:I've been having a back and forth with some friends recently about a subject I'm sure has been covered to death here, but I'd like to ask if anyone training or trained in BJJ or traditional JJ has any experiential reports of using the style in a street fight, especially against more than 1 opponent. We can't seem to decide just how real the threat of going to the ground is in modern society and I'd like to get some actual personal takes on the subject if anyone has any. I got in a fight at my frat house back in college. Some fatty that I now feel bad for, tackled me when he saw that his friends had instigated a fight. I wrestled him off me and got to side control and started dropping hammer fists on his face, and then elbows when he covered up. When I decided he had enough, I think he tried to tackle me again or maybe he was just trying to get up, I pulled guard and put him in a guillotine, and put him to sleep. I went inside afterwards to avoid being arrested, but I guess he came back later, apologizing, hoping to get his baseball cap back. So BJJ help me beat up a guy with 50 lbs on me, granted he wasn't a physical specimen or anything. I'm not really sure what was going on around me in terms of the rest of the fighting, but I'm guessing numbers were probably on my side because it was our home turf and I didn't end up getting stomped or kicked. But let's put it this way, I thought I was going to start wailing on fatty's friends, but then fatty tackled me from the side. I had no chance of stopping the takedown since I didn't see it coming.
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May 26, 2016 18:41
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Kekekela posted:I'd check out Gracie Challenge and vale tudo if you haven't already. Interesting, although Vale Tudo is 'mostly' no-holds-barred, it seems like its still relatively structured (no eye-gouging/biting/etc - the kind of stuff you'd expect in a street fight). I wish there was some examples/evidence of any sort describing group fights with BJJ practitioners (to touch upon the risk of ground fighting with other enemies present) along with street fighting risks like makeshift or purpose built weapons and true no-holds-barred.
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May 26, 2016 18:54
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DandyLion posted:no eye-gouging/biting/etc - the kind of stuff you'd expect in a street fight You might be surprised how little this actually occurs.
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May 26, 2016 18:56
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Nierbo posted:You might be surprised how little this actually occurs. Not surprised per se, the dozens of youtube streetfight videos I've watched really don't have any biting and almost no gouging in them, so I concede its not a common thing. I suppose what I'm most getting at is: Is it because people don't regularly carry weapons (say pocket knives) on them, that styles like BJJ have come into their own as a product of the time we're living? I'm tying to reconcile how historical martial wrestling had much less ground-fighting than modern styles and the prevailing theory is up to relatively recently it was common for most people to carry some sort of utilitarian blade on them, which made grappling to the ground even more dangerous (not counting multiple opponents). What i'd really like to do is go to a BJJ gym and take my rubber knives with me and do some sparring to see if BJJ methodology could adequately keep an opponent from going for the knife.
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May 26, 2016 19:03
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DandyLion posted:(no eye-gouging/biting/etc - the kind of stuff you'd expect in a street fight) Where do you see this happening? Just curious, as I've been in and seen a lot of fights but mostly over 20 years ago. Only once have I seen a guy bitten and it was a huge loving deal that pretty much made the biter a pariah. Never seen any eye-gouging.
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May 26, 2016 19:03
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DandyLion posted:Not surprised per se, the dozens of youtube streetfight videos I've watched really don't have any biting and almost no gouging in them, so I concede its not a common thing. I suppose what I'm most getting at is: Is it because people don't regularly carry weapons (say pocket knives) on them, that styles like BJJ have come into their own as a product of the time we're living? I'm tying to reconcile how historical martial wrestling had much less ground-fighting than modern styles and the prevailing theory is up to relatively recently it was common for most people to carry some sort of utilitarian blade on them, which made grappling to the ground even more dangerous (not counting multiple opponents). If you grapple someone who has a knife, you die. You want distance, not to get close. And BJJs rise was because of UFC, MMA and bringing those techniques to the western world.
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May 26, 2016 19:06
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DandyLion posted:
There's a drill guys do using markers for the knife that'd let you test stuff out. Never done it myself but from all accounts the main takeaway is always, you're gonna get cut.
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May 26, 2016 19:08
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Nierbo posted:You might be surprised how little this actually occurs. Eye gouging, fish hooking and scratching all take a hand to do. That hand, should really have higher priorities in terms of hitting, preventing from being hit, improving position or submission holding.
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May 26, 2016 19:10
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Kekekela posted:Where do you see this happening? Renaissance era fight-manuals describe biting/eye-gouging/nut 'grabbing or ripping' as some of the main reasons/risks for grappling down to the ground. My discussion is in context between several members of my HEMA group.
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May 26, 2016 19:10
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VulgarandStupid posted:Eye gouging, fish hooking and scratching all take a hand to do. That hand, should really have higher priorities in terms of hitting, preventing from being hit, improving position or submission holding. I've heard this argument and while i believe it has merit (especially for extremely talented/powerful strikers), it would seem that in that case it comes down to whether or not the defender can incapacitate the knife-wielder (with unarmed strikes) before the knife wielder, having already given up 1 hand to wield the knife, can deal a fatal wound with the weapon. Most of my pals seem to overwhelmingly put their money on the knife wielder.
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May 26, 2016 19:12
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DandyLion posted:What i'd really like to do is go to a BJJ gym and take my rubber knives with me and do some sparring to see if BJJ methodology could adequately keep an opponent from going for the knife. BJJ as it is taught in most places would not do well in such an exercise. As is repeated often in this thread, you have to train how you want to fight. Training to prepare you for street brawls with no intent of homicide and violent encounters with intent of homicide would share some minimal similarities with BJJ and other fight sports, but overall be very different. As for going to the ground, the ground is a great weapon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae8BXrwWLnM&t=30s
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May 26, 2016 19:15
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DandyLion posted:Renaissance era fight-manuals describe biting/eye-gouging/nut 'grabbing or ripping' as some of the main reasons/risks for grappling down to the ground. My discussion is in context between several members of my HEMA group. Ah ok. I think in that case also armor was a big impediment.
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May 26, 2016 19:17
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kimbo305 posted:As for going to the ground, the ground is a great weapon: This is practically straight out of the aforementioned Renaissance era fightbooks (the prevailing directive being grapple to dump your enemy as forcefully as possible to the ground on their head). Those last punches were even unnecessary, as the guy was out when his head hit the asphalt. Great find.
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May 26, 2016 19:27
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Why does someone asking questions like this own a set of rubber knives?
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May 26, 2016 19:29
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Novum posted:Why does someone asking questions like this own a set of rubber knives? Renaissance era fight-manuals
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May 26, 2016 19:31
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my judo knife is plastic fwiw
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May 26, 2016 19:31
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Novum posted:Why does someone asking questions like this own a set of rubber knives? They're holdovers from some earlier self-defense classes I took a decade ago. I use them when we want to go 100% since you don't have to pull your attacks or avoid the eyes, but I admit they are a poor analogue for the real thing. We've got a variety of wood and blunt steel knife trainers as well, but it gets decidedly dangerous with a hard training tool since the fighting with those short range weapons is so atrociously furious, that things like chipped teeth and broken ribs start becoming unacceptably common.
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May 26, 2016 19:34
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what self defense classes are letting people swing wood/metal pegs at each other 100% lol
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May 26, 2016 19:36
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Wangsbig posted:what self defense classes are letting people swing wood/metal pegs at each other 100% lol The classes used the rubber knives. Only us crazy (HEMA) folk do the 100% wood/metal trainers. Also its less swinging and more thrusting. I am in no way saying that it is remotely safe.
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May 26, 2016 19:38
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The thing about "You never want to be on the ground in a streetfight" is that that's a reason TO study BJJ, not a reason not to study it. Streetfights generally come in two flavors - the first is the kind where two people spend five minutes in a shoving match trying to psych themselves up to throw the first shot. That's the kind you shouldn't be getting into at all. The second is the kind where someone drunk or dumb or crazy tries to punch or tackle you without warning. Most of the time, you aren't going to see that coming, and if you get punched while you're not looking or tackled while you're not looking - in all likelihood you will wind up on the ground. Now you're exactly where you don't want to be, so what do you do? Well, if you've trained BJJ that incorporates self-defense/MMA striking components, you'll have spent a lot of time training exactly what to do against an opponent on top trying to hit you (hint: in this situation the answer is usually a sweep/technical lift to get to your feet and then run, but situations differ) - it won't be the same as in class, because reality never is, but you'll have done serious training in making what you have to do happen against a resisting opponent. If you have't trained BJJ - well, have somebody sit on your chest wearing boxing gloves sometime, and see how many times you get hit before you can get out from under.
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May 26, 2016 20:12
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DandyLion posted:What i'd really like to do is go to a BJJ gym and take my rubber knives with me and do some sparring to see if BJJ methodology could adequately keep an opponent from going for the knife. One of the top guys in my gym is also a Canadian military grappling champion. He was telling me about a workshop he did on close quarters military combat/hand to hand. The guy I know was like "well when I get him in a triangle I finish like this..." and the instructor was like "when I get him in a triangle I pull my boot knife and I stab him in the neck." In short, don't try to grapple against someone with a knife.
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May 26, 2016 21:25
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My self defense strategy is to buy FD an airplane ticket and tell him heel hooks are legal in this bar. Whichever one of you guys is best at judo can come too I guess. No strikers, not trying to get sued.
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May 26, 2016 21:34
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CommonShore posted:One of the top guys in my gym is also a Canadian military grappling champion. He was telling me about a workshop he did on close quarters military combat/hand to hand. The guy I know was like "well when I get him in a triangle I finish like this..." and the instructor was like "when I get him in a triangle I pull my boot knife and I stab him in the neck." This plus the shingles guy story makes me think you have a very unique gym
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May 26, 2016 21:58
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Anyone have recommendations for Thai or kick boxing in the Atlanta area? My girlfriend wants to start kicking people, and I was gonna start with goon recommendations before I start just randomly picking gyms to try. She's not interested in competing but wants to learn to actually hit people.
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May 26, 2016 22:27
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origami posted:This plus the shingles guy story makes me think you have a very unique gym Shingles guy wasn't me.
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May 26, 2016 23:27
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DandyLion posted:I've been having a back and forth with some friends recently about a subject I'm sure has been covered to death here, but I'd like to ask if anyone training or trained in BJJ or traditional JJ has any experiential reports of using the style in a street fight, especially against more than 1 opponent. We can't seem to decide just how real the threat of going to the ground is in modern society and I'd like to get some actual personal takes on the subject if anyone has any. To answer your second question, if you've got training in bjj or judo or sambo or wrestling, it's very easy to put an untrained person on the ground, and it's very easy to wriggle out of any kind of hold that an untrained person comes up with. But your first question? I think you're building theories on top of a flawed foundation. A "street fight" is not what you think it is. Thinking that any amount of training will make you able to reliably fight multiple attackers or people with knives is a power fantasy.
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May 27, 2016 00:09
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Concealed carry permit=you win every fight
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May 27, 2016 00:15
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Smoking Crow posted:Concealed carry permit=
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May 27, 2016 01:19
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You americans and your guns
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May 27, 2016 01:38
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