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TFRazorsaw posted:That's fair, but the genie of interconnectedness isn't going back in the bottle. The book going forward is also going to remind everyone of these facts on numerous occasions. There's a mystery for sure, I'm not trying to say there isn't and sorry if it sounds that way. I just don't think it's a very well handled mystery. Color symbolism is REALLY broad, even in comics where Red Skull is a thing that exists. I agree that's probably what they're doing, I'm nearly 100% positive that the big reveal is gonna be Red Skull has some kinda full on mental link with Steve to make him do this and all because of that, but I think that's kinda weak foundation to build your big issue 1 reboot mystery on at first.
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May 27, 2016 04:47
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Well yea no poo poo I don't think Captain America is an actual for real Nazi. I thought that was a given but if we're gonna pull the history card I again turn to 'maybe the comic that was created by dudes who faced danger for being Jews drawing an American kicking Hitler's rear end because gently caress Nazis right isn't the best place to be talking about the 'fun' storyline of 'what if Cap was a Nazi though' in the first place'. I keep seeing the #GiveCapABoyfriend thing coming up, along with statements of "they'll do THIS but they won't give Cap a boyfriend?!" and I'm like... this stuff happened in a very narrow period of time before the issue even hit. There wasn't really any time to respond in any way whatsoever to that movement, because marketing and comic releases are handled months in advance and... it's just fairly ridiculous?
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May 27, 2016 04:48
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Tatum Girlparts posted:There's a mystery for sure, I'm not trying to say there isn't and sorry if it sounds that way. I just don't think it's a very well handled mystery. Color symbolism is REALLY broad, even in comics where Red Skull is a thing that exists. I agree that's probably what they're doing, I'm nearly 100% positive that the big reveal is gonna be Red Skull has some kinda mental link with Steve to make him do this and all because of that, but I think that's kinda weak foundation to build your big issue 1 reboot mystery on at first. Its really not a "reboot". Its just the first issue of the current Steve Rogers series. Marvel series are basically like TV seasons now. Issue 1 is like episode 1 of a new season. You should know what happened previously and there is a good chance that the plot will involve something major that shakes things up.
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May 27, 2016 04:50
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If you're going to give anyone in the Marvel A-list a same-sex relationship right now, Tony's probably your best pick. Maybe Jane. Everyone else has something going on.
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May 27, 2016 04:51
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Again, Nick Spencer is the guy writing Sam Wilson's Cap. A really important point lost in the shuffle that people continually ignore is that this was one of the better ways to have two Captain Americas at once, especially one whose whole bit is that a vast majority of people don't consider him the "real" Captain America with ill-disguised or outright blatant racism in-universe, who hasn't been accepted as a Captain America just as legitimate as Steve by the comics-reading public due to a combination of unfamiliarity, Steve having a huge legacy, and, yes, at the very least subconscious racism. You saw all this bullshit with Miles Morales and he had the advantage of literally being in an alternate universe from the 616 and got built up enough by himself (especially since they literally killed off 1015 Pete) so people accepted blacksuit Spider-Man. And you still got a bunch of racist bullshit slung against him, it's just been enough time passed that he's become a whole new generation's Spider-Man. Sam Wilson doesn't have those advantages, and in wrestling parlance there's nothing more "over" than Steve Rogers turning into a literal Nazi that Sam Wilson then somehow enables to turn good again. Like, seriously. You wanna talk about combating racism, let's not forget that this was in no small part a way to have two Caps without marginalizing the black one.
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May 27, 2016 04:54
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TFRazorsaw posted:I keep seeing the #GiveCapABoyfriend thing coming up, along with statements of "they'll do THIS but they won't give Cap a boyfriend?!" and I'm like... this stuff happened in a very narrow period of time before the issue even hit. There wasn't really any time to respond in any way whatsoever to that movement, because marketing and comic releases are handled months in advance and... it's just fairly ridiculous?
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May 27, 2016 04:54
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TFRazorsaw posted:I keep seeing the #GiveCapABoyfriend thing coming up, along with statements of "they'll do THIS but they won't give Cap a boyfriend?!" and I'm like... this stuff happened in a very narrow period of time before the issue even hit. There wasn't really any time to respond in any way whatsoever to that movement, because marketing and comic releases are handled months in advance and... it's just fairly ridiculous? I don't go in for the 'they'll do this but' thing but they for sure 'responded' to it by just happening to say 'hey guys some big changes coming for Captain America' while that was going on. Obviously no they didn't sit down and say 'this'll gently caress with them, make him a nazi instead' or whatever, because that'd be hosed up and impossible. They sure did use that as a chance to advertise the comic, though, and that's fine because god knows comics need all the advertising they can get, but let's not pretend like just because they obviously didn't do this as an elaborate trick there isn't a valid reason for some people to feel a bit bamboozled by 'big changes' meaning 'nazi'.
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May 27, 2016 04:55
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Tatum Girlparts posted:There's a mystery for sure, I'm not trying to say there isn't and sorry if it sounds that way. I just don't think it's a very well handled mystery. Color symbolism is REALLY broad, even in comics where Red Skull is a thing that exists. I agree that's probably what they're doing, I'm nearly 100% positive that the big reveal is gonna be Red Skull has some kinda full on mental link with Steve to make him do this and all because of that, but I think that's kinda weak foundation to build your big issue 1 reboot mystery on at first. The flashbacks even start with "One person can change the world forever" that's literally the first line of the book. A book that features a scene of heroes sitting around a table talking about status quo changes they went through that were temporary. A book that also features a woman in red clothing that seems to know an awful lot about Steve Rogers and his mother and takes a weird interest in them. I mean the clues are there.Now you could argue that they are there to mislead you and that Cap really will be revealed to have been Hydra all along and this is real permanent status quo from here on out. But that's not really likely.
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May 27, 2016 04:55
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I'm just mad about caps stupid shield. 
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May 27, 2016 04:58
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I don't go in for the 'they'll do this but' thing but they for sure 'responded' to it by just happening to say 'hey guys some big changes coming for Captain America' while that was going on. Obviously no they didn't sit down and say 'this'll gently caress with them, make him a nazi instead' or whatever, because that'd be hosed up and impossible. They sure did use that as a chance to advertise the comic, though, and that's fine because god knows comics need all the advertising they can get, but let's not pretend like just because they obviously didn't do this as an elaborate trick there isn't a valid reason for some people to feel a bit bamboozled by 'big changes' meaning 'nazi'. They absolutely, 100%, would've done the exact same thing with or without #GiveCapABoyfriend. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the whole "big changes" bit was supposed to tie in to Civil War and against Rebirth, two projects known far in advance that marketing could form a response to, over a dumb twitter hashtag. Like...yeah. I really don't think this was at all a way to respond to a twitter meme over one of the biggest movies that released this month and a comics initiative by their main competitor that everyone's known about for months beforehand, or at the very least it was a distance third of those three reasons.
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May 27, 2016 04:59
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I don't go in for the 'they'll do this but' thing but they for sure 'responded' to it by just happening to say 'hey guys some big changes coming for Captain America' while that was going on. Obviously no they didn't sit down and say 'this'll gently caress with them, make him a nazi instead' or whatever, because that'd be hosed up and impossible. They sure did use that as a chance to advertise the comic, though, and that's fine because god knows comics need all the advertising they can get, but let's not pretend like just because they obviously didn't do this as an elaborate trick there isn't a valid reason for some people to feel a bit bamboozled by 'big changes' meaning 'nazi'. I'm not gonna say people are reasonable for being upset over what is basically a coincidence. "Big changes are coming" is stock for the relaunch of a new book, for christ's sake. They weren't taking advantage of anything, it just happened that the movement happened to gain prominence before the start of a new issue. No one was bamboozled; I disagree with but am at least sympathetic to the idea that this is antithetical to the idea of Cap, but the idea that they took advantage of a progressive fan movement that someone else started in the middle of promoting their new book? No, I'm sorry, that's their own fault.
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May 27, 2016 04:59
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I'm too IRL tired right now to be all that concise or coherent about the issue more but-Toxxupation posted:I guarantee you 99% of the people upset over Hydra Cap don't know anything about that Axis storyline or Quicksilver or Scarlet Witch's backstories. Point being, comic books...heck, not just comic books, but media in general...have not been inspiring any confidences in their depictions of Jewish-related issues for a while now, and that Marvel has dug this grave for itself slowly through the years and has no one but itself to blame for the blogosphere not giving them any benefits of any doubts right now. "The internet suddenly getting up in arms over Jewish issues" may seem inexplicable and out of the blue to you but, looking back, I can see that it's been coming for a while now and this is simply the dam-breaking straw or whatever.
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May 27, 2016 05:02
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And knowing Marvel's predilections, I don't even think they'd be genuinely averse to giving Cap a boyfriend. Considering Donald Glover did the whole Spider-Man bit while on Community, and about a year later Marvel literally introduced a black Spider-Man (which makes the dates about line up, to be honest), and considering he literally voices Miles in the cartoon it really does seem like Marvel's savvy enough to pick up and run with fan trends. I know I'd be fine with it, and it'd be yet more interesting texture to the character.
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May 27, 2016 05:04
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Toxxupation posted:Again, Nick Spencer is the guy writing Sam Wilson's Cap. A really important point lost in the shuffle that people continually ignore is that this was one of the better ways to have two Captain Americas at once, especially one whose whole bit is that a vast majority of people don't consider him the "real" Captain America with ill-disguised or outright blatant racism in-universe, who hasn't been accepted as a Captain America just as legitimate as Steve by the comics-reading public due to a combination of unfamiliarity, Steve having a huge legacy, and, yes, at the very least subconscious racism. You saw all this bullshit with Miles Morales and he had the advantage of literally being in an alternate universe from the 616 and got built up enough by himself (especially since they literally killed off 1015 Pete) so people accepted blacksuit Spider-Man. And you still got a bunch of racist bullshit slung against him, it's just been enough time passed that he's become a whole new generation's Spider-Man. Sam Wilson doesn't have those advantages, and in wrestling parlance there's nothing more "over" than Steve Rogers turning into a literal Nazi that Sam Wilson then somehow enables to turn good again. You're not 100% wrong but the only way this line of argument works is if we're pretending Steve won't be back on the side of good or at least Bucky style 'mostly good but still hosed up'. I totally agree there's no great way to do 2 Caps without the black guy probably going to get overshadowed by the one with 75ish years of legacy, but that's just a thing we have to deal with no matter what because there's no way all this doesn't end with Steve back as a Captain America too. X-O posted:The flashbacks even start with "One person can change the world forever" that's literally the first line of the book. A book that features a scene of heroes sitting around a table talking about status quo changes they went through that were temporary. A book that also features a woman in red clothing that seems to know an awful lot about Steve Rogers and his mother and takes a weird interest in them. I mean the clues are there.Now you could argue that they are there to mislead you and that Cap really will be revealed to have been Hydra all along and this is real permanent status quo from here on out. But that's not really likely. Honestly I think at this point we're just gonna disagree on how strong the subtle stuff is as a foundation for an entire reboot and it's gonna end with both of us agreeing we're gonna have to just see how the next few issues pay off before we can really stand by anything. For all my bitching (boy I bitched way more about this than I intended to, I'm really not that 'mad' about this, just kinda bothered more than anything) I'm gonna buy the rest of the issues because despite my dislike of the twist I think the comic was actually a pretty good comic. I think this could go some interesting places, I WANT it to go interesting places, I'm just saying I also agree with some of my fellow Jewish fans who are a little bothered that this is how we're starting things off. I think, for a better answer to 'how would you do it' from before, I'd keep the flashbacks, I'd keep the mystery about what the gently caress is up with Steve, but I just wouldn't have the Hail Hydra moment yet. Like, I dunno, give it one storyline, have Steve and his buddies fight some Hydra baddie and have this weird flashback/sympathetic Hydra stuff slowly boil in the background. Maybe end the story with Steve's big 'Hail Hydra' betrayal. Maybe that's what made me not like it, it feels so sudden that there's no way to view at as anything but 'clickbait'. Make it feel more organic and build this mystery and it'd maybe go down better.
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May 27, 2016 05:06
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I wouldn't be averse to Cap being gay, but I don't really see the point. Because I especially don't want it to be with Bucky and that's the only reason people want it to be so. Seeing as how that's more of a brotherly relationship and Bucky was you know, a child during most of their history together. If you want to do it in the movies whatever, though it doesn't make any sense since there either.
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May 27, 2016 05:08
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Toxxupation posted:They absolutely, 100%, would've done the exact same thing with or without #GiveCapABoyfriend. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the whole "big changes" bit was supposed to tie in to Civil War and against Rebirth, two projects known far in advance that marketing could form a response to, over a dumb twitter hashtag. Like...yeah. I really don't think this was at all a way to respond to a twitter meme over one of the biggest movies that released this month and a comics initiative by their main competitor that everyone's known about for months beforehand, or at the very least it was a distance third of those three reasons. No I'm with you, this was happening ages before gay cap was ever a thing beyond general shipper stuff. I'm just saying they jumped on it for a chance to tease the 'big changes' and that led to some fans going 'wait...wasn't expecting loving Nazi from that'. I totally agree this would have happened regardless and anyone claiming otherwise has no idea how comic production works.
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May 27, 2016 05:09
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X-O posted:I wouldn't be averse to Cap being gay, but I don't really see the point. Because I especially don't want it to be with Bucky and that's the only reason people want it to be so. Seeing as how that's more of a brotherly relationship and Bucky was you know, a child during most of their history together. If you want to do it in the movies whatever, though it doesn't make any sense since there either. Brotherly nothing. Brotherly is the movies. In the comics, Steve was more akin to Bucky's father figure before a gulf of decades separated them. The idea of pairing them up in 616 has way too many unfortunate implications. Tatum Girlparts posted:No I'm with you, this was happening ages before gay cap was ever a thing beyond general shipper stuff. I'm just saying they jumped on it for a chance to tease the 'big changes' and that led to some fans going 'wait...wasn't expecting loving Nazi from that'. I totally agree this would have happened regardless and anyone claiming otherwise has no idea how comic production works. Again, what you interpret them as "jumping on it" is standard first issue hype and nothing else. That was gonna happen regardless of what was in the issue.
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May 27, 2016 05:12
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The idea that this is somehow supposed to not overshadow Sam Wilson as Captain America is absurd on the face of it. "How do we keep Sam Wilson relevant? I know let's explode the internet with Steve Rogers being a Nazi!"
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May 27, 2016 05:13
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X-O posted:I wouldn't be averse to Cap being gay, but I don't really see the point. Because I especially don't want it to be with Bucky and that's the only reason people want it to be so. Seeing as how that's more of a brotherly relationship and Bucky was you know, a child during most of their history together. If you want to do it in the movies whatever, though it doesn't make any sense since there either. The main point is basically just a representation issue. Like, same reason that making Spider-Man black doesn't really have much of a 'point' but hey, it's a good thing to have a more diverse roster, kids like heroes who are like them, and the less homogeneous a roster is the more kids can identify well with it. I'm with you on not liking Steve and Bucky together in the comics though, dude was straight up his father figure. In the movies yea I think that'd be cool but yea, comic Bucky and Steve are nearly father and son, that's kinda a rough place to spring a relationship from.
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May 27, 2016 05:14
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The main point is basically just a representation issue. Like, same reason that making Spider-Man black doesn't really have much of a 'point' but hey, it's a good thing to have a more diverse roster, kids like heroes who are like them, and the less homogeneous a roster is the more kids can identify well with it. I'm saying I don't see the point because the campaign is kind of disingenuous because it's not really "Give Cap a Boyfriend" it's "Make Cap and Bucky Boyfriends" and that's just not something that should be happening.
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May 27, 2016 05:19
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X-O posted:I'm saying I don't see the point because the campaign is kind of disingenuous because it's not really "Give Cap a Boyfriend" it's "Make Cap and Bucky Boyfriends" and that's just not something that should be happening. Oh, yea, agree there
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May 27, 2016 05:21
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Tatum Girlparts posted:You're not 100% wrong but the only way this line of argument works is if we're pretending Steve won't be back on the side of good or at least Bucky style 'mostly good but still hosed up'. I totally agree there's no great way to do 2 Caps without the black guy probably going to get overshadowed by the one with 75ish years of legacy, but that's just a thing we have to deal with no matter what because there's no way all this doesn't end with Steve back as a Captain America too. If Sam critically enables Steve's face turn then it still works, especially if they Winter Soldier-ize Steve. Again, there's two Spider-Men running around, and the black one's on the Avengers. It can happen. It does happen. If anything, I would argue that Miles is the more popular one, especially since Miles seems to be the latest teen hero that Marvel pushes to do the the Spider-Man story (whose focus changes every decade or so, starting with Peter back in 1961 and running through Nova (Richard Rider) in the 70s, Rogue/Kitty Pryde in the 80s, Darkhawk in the 90s, Ultimate Spider-Man in the 2000s and Miles in the 2010s, with some Kamala Khan as well).
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May 27, 2016 05:23
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Hell, if they'd done Superior Spider-Man after bringing Miles into the main universe and were still running both titles concurrently people might not have kneejerked so hard on Superior Spider-Man.
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May 27, 2016 05:25
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I think Sam Wilson and Steve Rogers becoming boyfriends at the end of this whole Hydra Cap run solves a whole bunch of problems simultaneously while giving an out for two Caps to be working at the same time without one marginalizing the other.
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May 27, 2016 05:25
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Toxxupation posted:If Sam critically enables Steve's face turn then it still works, especially if they Winter Soldier-ize Steve. Again, there's two Spider-Men running around, and the black one's on the Avengers. It can happen. It does happen. If anything, I would argue that Miles is the more popular one, especially since Miles seems to be the latest teen hero that Marvel pushes to do the the Spider-Man story (whose focus changes every decade or so, starting with Peter back in 1961 and running through Nova (Richard Rider) in the 70s, Rogue/Kitty Pryde in the 80s, Darkhawk in the 90s, Ultimate Spider-Man in the 2000s and Miles in the 2010s, with some Kamala Khan as well). Yea it can be done but Peter didn't come back as an uncle shooting super villain or something. That woulda overshadowed Miles a little bit. I think if they didn't want to overshadow Sam then they shouldn't have made the very first issue their big bombshell issue. Again I'll go back to my thing I said where maybe it would have been better if this was the start of a slow burn that paid off later on with the 'Hail Hydra' moment. Like, then you can have Sam with Steve doing cool Captain America poo poo, and Steve supporting Sam so we have the foundation for 'hey ok we get it, Steve's back, we're pumped, but Sam's still at the very least a major figure here ok?'
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May 27, 2016 05:28
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Toxxupation posted:I think Sam Wilson and Steve Rogers becoming boyfriends at the end of this whole Hydra Cap run solves a whole bunch of problems simultaneously while giving an out for two Caps to be working at the same time without one marginalizing the other. sold!
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May 27, 2016 05:29
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Toxxupation posted:I think Sam Wilson and Steve Rogers becoming boyfriends at the end of this whole Hydra Cap run solves a whole bunch of problems simultaneously while giving an out for two Caps to be working at the same time without one marginalizing the other. I don't think that sounds good either.
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May 27, 2016 05:29
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It really says something about how people read comics that they'll get whipped into a frenzy over an obvious mind control story, but nobody bats an eye at the implications made by that Multiversity issue that had the JLA characters as Nazis, and Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters as terrorists who were the heroes of the story. Don't let these people watch the 66 Batman show. They'll freak out about Batman being in a death trap instead of tuning in at the same Bat Time and same Bat Channel.
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May 27, 2016 05:30
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#LiterallyAnyoneButBucky
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May 27, 2016 05:31
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea it can be done but Peter didn't come back as an uncle shooting super villain or something. That woulda overshadowed Miles a little bit. I mean, he came back as literally a supervillain. And then Spider-Verse happened, and right after that was SW, then Ultimate End. Like you want to talk about focus Miles got "overshadowed" basically from Superior on to about like six months ago where they placed him on ANAD Avengers.
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May 27, 2016 05:32
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X-O posted:I don't think that sounds good either. Probably not, no. Would solve a bunch of issues all at once though. Also would allow Spencer to fold two books into one assuming he's now The Captain America Guy, and in a way that gets Marvel some goodwill about a year or so from now.
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May 27, 2016 05:35
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Steve/Gay Wolverine From X-treme X-Men for life. 
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May 27, 2016 05:41
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Toxxupation posted:I mean, he came back as literally a supervillain. And then Spider-Verse happened, and right after that was SW, then Ultimate End. Miles got waaaay overshadowed basically from Superior on to about like six months ago where they placed him on ANAD Avengers. He's still overshadowed. There's people who care about Miles as Spider-Man, and then there's the 9 billion more that cared that Tom Holland seems like an amazing Peter Parker. He's on "The Avengers", a concept so muddled as to be meaningless. I mean you could easily say that while it's not the main Avengers the One With Deadpool In It was the more important Avengers, because it has Deadpool in it and he's blowing up now. And guess which Spider-Man that team had? Or which Captain America for that matter. Miles is cool, and I'm glad he seems to be sticking around, but he's clearly not the main Spider-Man. And he's almost certainly never going to be. Same for Sam. And while both of them have a racial component, it's not the totality of the reason. It's just a thing that happens with iconic figures. t's a bit different than what happens with Green Lanterns or Flashes, although they've certainly had it too. It's more like what happens with Batman. They tried to pass that poo poo on a few times, and no more crucially than with Dick. I mean he wasn't even hated as a Batman, that was perfectly natural, it told good stories, blah blah blah blah Bruce is Batman. The End. Those characters can certainly stick around, it just becomes clear who the narrative favors. Miles and Sam are not who the narrative favors.
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May 27, 2016 05:42
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If I ever write comics for Marvel I'm gonna write a series about Bucky Barnes and Galactus going on awkward yet romantic dates
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May 27, 2016 05:44
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Lurdiak posted:Also Steve really looks like an rear end in a top hat without the wings. I figured out why this is the case for me; it's because – between the full face mask, forehead symbol, and similar colors – he ends up looking like Bullseye.
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May 27, 2016 05:47
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Boogaleeboo posted:. I mean you could easily say that while it's not the main Avengers the One With Deadpool In It was the more important Avengers There's absolutely zero chance that Uncanny is "more important" a title than Avengers. I mean, come the gently caress on dude. Especially considering that Deadpool has been "blowing up" since the turn of the century. ANAD has Thor (main title) Ms. Marvel (critical darling commercial success, rapidly becoming main title) Spider-Man (main title) Iron Man (main title) Captain America (main title) Vision (not main title but MCU-important) and Nova (for some reason). Also look at the storytelling, ANAD Avengers is a Avengers-rear end Avengers book with really simplistic, near-Silver Age plots and obviously meant to be a totally self-contained work that relies on what people are aware of the characters anecdotally. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 06:08 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 06:00
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DrProsek posted:Steve/Gay Wolverine From X-treme X-Men for life. What about Hercules? All of these potential couplings are pale reflections of my Luke/Danny ship. Their codenames sound like gay porn anyway! We're halfway there! Nobby fucked around with this message at 06:06 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 06:04
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Nobby posted:What about Hercules? Everyone made jokes about it for years. Little did they know...
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May 27, 2016 06:12
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BrianWilly posted:"The internet suddenly getting up in arms over Jewish issues" may seem inexplicable and out of the blue to you but, looking back, I can see that it's been coming for a while now and this is simply the dam-breaking straw or whatever. I thought it was Ken Livingstone.  Anyway, I wonder if Cap will be sharing any unsolicited opinions about Israel in the next issue. 
Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 10:12 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 09:21
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 18:58 |
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In non-Cap Marvel, Nighthawk was truly terrible. The art was Avatar-level bad and the writing was horrible. Possibly just a pet-peeve but I cannot stand it when a writer tosses out pop culture references left, right and centre. Double points for when you throw out a reference and then have to explain it. I've liked Villalobos' work a lot in the past but I'm really not feeling it at all here, could be the colouring but it felt like a pale imitation of some of his other stuff. Crap on every level. Mockingbird continues to be excellent though, as does Hellcat. I'm pretty much a teenage girl in my tastes at the moment. Shameless fucked around with this message at 12:04 on May 27, 2016 |
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