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mcmagic posted:The card says that when it enters the battlefield it "loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." This says that the only legal target would be the Worldgorger. No. That trigger goes on the stack but you select the target before that trigger resolves.
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May 27, 2016 18:47
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mcmagic posted:The card says that when it enters the battlefield it "loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." This says that the only legal target would be the Worldgorger. that's not a targetting restriction at all
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May 27, 2016 18:48
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mcmagic posted:The card says that when it enters the battlefield it "loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." This says that the only legal target would be the Worldgorger. I'll point out that Worldgorger Dragon is definitely not on the battlefield by the time its "When Worldgorger Dragon leaves the battlefield..." trigger resolves.
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May 27, 2016 18:49
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SoftNum posted:No. That trigger goes on the stack but you select the target before that trigger resolves. The trigger that makes it lose "Enchant Creature in a GY." OK. It doesn't read that way though.
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May 27, 2016 18:49
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mcmagic posted:The trigger that makes it lose "Enchant Creature in a GY." OK. It doesn't read that way though. No when it's flickered it's a new object with it's base attributes, not it's modified attributes. It's as if it's a new Animate Dead.
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May 27, 2016 18:50
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mcmagic posted:The card says that when it enters the battlefield it "loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." This says that the only legal target would be the Worldgorger. Mind explaining this? Why does animate dead remember this change through the flicker? Why is a worldgorger dragon in your graveyard a "creature put onto the battlefield with animate dead"? Why does Worldgorger remember being on the battlefield and not become a different object?
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May 27, 2016 18:50
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Emerson Cod posted:Hopefully the lack of Zendikar fetches here means they plan on sticking them in a real set in the near future. I keep saying, they'll be jammed into Conspiracy to get people to buy it.
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May 27, 2016 18:50
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Zoness posted:that's not a targetting restriction at all The wording can be confusing but I think he is saying The actual card says "choose a creature when this is cast" but since it's an aura, when it blinks and returns you must still choose a creature for it to bring back to the battlefield. The rules allow you to choose another creature (considering worldgorger isn't the same instance of that creature anyway) as the aura re-enters the battlefield.
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May 27, 2016 18:51
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Thisuck posted:drat you laziness! Also my greatest foe as well. Yes. Good luck on your quest for these. Zoness posted:I know it's not a eurogame but what about when SeaFall comes out?
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May 27, 2016 18:56
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Okay, mcmagic, think about this: If I play magical hack on your bog raiders to give it plainswalk, and then you play flicker on the bog raiders, does it have plainswalk or swampwalk?
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May 27, 2016 18:57
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Dr. Stab posted:Okay, mcmagic, think about this: If I play magical hack on your bog raiders to give it plainswalk, and then you play flicker on the bog raiders, does it have plainswalk or swampwalk? I'll give you a technically correct answer: Yes.
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May 27, 2016 18:58
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Dr. Stab posted:Okay, mcmagic, think about this: If I play magical hack on your bog raiders to give it plainswalk, and then you play flicker on the bog raiders, does it have plainswalk or swampwalk? It has Swampwalk. But Bog Raiders is always a permanent and therefore always a legal target. What is confusing is the way Animal Dead seems to change what it can target if it's on the battlefield.
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May 27, 2016 18:59
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mcmagic posted:But Bog Raiders is always a permanent and therefore always a legal target. What is confusing is the way Animal Dead seems to change what it can target if it's on the battlefield. It doesn't change what it can target, it changes its enchant clause so it doesn't fall off of what it enchants as soon as the card it initially enchanted is no longer in a graveyard.
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May 27, 2016 19:01
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suicidesteve posted:You're right. An entire vintage archetype is built on a lie. Wrap it up folks.
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May 27, 2016 19:02
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Stop looking at the literal wording and think about how Animate Dead works intuitively. It can grab any creature from your yard and that holds true when it's flickered. This is literally how the Worldgorger Dragon combo deck works.
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May 27, 2016 19:03
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Some Numbers posted:Stop looking at the literal wording and think about how Animate Dead works intuitively. It can grab any creature from your yard and that holds true when it's flickered. I understand that to be true. I'm just saying that the wording is confusing and non intuitive.
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May 27, 2016 19:04
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mcmagic posted:It has Swampwalk. But Bog Raiders is always a permanent and therefore always a legal target. What is confusing is the way Animal Dead seems to change what it can target if it's on the battlefield. A target for what? What I'm getting at is that the new animate dead that's entering the battlefield doesn't care that a previous animate dead on the battlefield had its text changed.
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May 27, 2016 19:06
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Dr. Stab posted:A target for what? What I'm getting at is that the new animate dead that's entering the battlefield doesn't care that a previous animate dead on the battlefield had its text changed. My point was that it reads like the new post-flicker Animate Dead also has that text because it's entered the battlefield.
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May 27, 2016 19:07
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mcmagic posted:My point was that it reads like the new post-flicker Animate Dead also has that text because it's entered the battlefield. Can you name any card in Magic that remembers changes to an object after it gets exiled and then returned to play?
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May 27, 2016 19:08
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mcmagic posted:My point was that it reads like the new post-flicker Animate Dead also has that text because it's entered the battlefield. Worldgorger + Animate Dead is an old-rear end combo and they haven't actually changed how Animate Dead works. The whole point of Animate Dead's hideously complicated current wording is to make it work exactly like it always did in a way that's consistent with the current rules and current templating standards.
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May 27, 2016 19:11
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Jabor posted:Can you name any card in Magic that remembers changes to an object after it gets exiled and then returned to play? There are cards that behave differently on cast than on entering the battlefield though... I'm not saying it remembers the change. I'm saying that it reads like it's always like that if it's on the battlefield.
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May 27, 2016 19:11
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Jabor posted:Can you name any card in Magic that remembers changes to an object after it gets exiled and then returned to play? Skullbriar 
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May 27, 2016 19:12
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local game store posted:Entry: $49.99 yeah. Okay. Sure thing. totally paying $50 to draft and get a pity pack of SoI if I wash out.
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May 27, 2016 19:13
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Turn 1: Swamp, Entomb Turn 2: Mana Crypt, Mountain, Keldon Marauders, Animate Dead OK, Mana Crypt is kindof cheating. I guess it would realistically have to be: Turn 1: Swamp, Entomb Turn 2: Mountain, Animate Dead. Run the loop for a bit to generate an arbitrary amount of black and red mana. Use eg Eyeblight's Ending to kill Worldgorger Dragon in response to its trigger, leaving your board exiled. Avarax for the win.
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May 27, 2016 19:17
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Telex posted:yeah. Okay. Sure thing. totally paying $50 to draft and get a pity pack of SoI if I wash out. Geez. That's a huge $60 rake per 8-player game. Guess it's their way of selling above-MSRP packs.
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May 27, 2016 19:17
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mcmagic posted:There are cards that behave differently on cast than on entering the battlefield though... I'm not saying it remembers the change. I'm saying that it reads like it's always like that if it's on the battlefield. As it reenters the battlefield due to Worldgorger leaving play, you choose a thing for it to enchant the way you do for any other aura that is entering the battlefield through a means other than being cast. Because the ETB trigger has not happened yet (for this new instance of Animate Dead) the class of thing it enchants is still "Creature card in a graveyard." You pick a creature card in a graveyard for it to enchant. It need not be the Worldgorger Dragon.
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May 27, 2016 19:21
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Just pretend Animate Dead still has the 4th edition wording, that probably makes things clearer. Or Maybe McMagic is right and all those tournaments people won with Worldgorger combo were just bad judge calls all along.
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May 27, 2016 19:25
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I am shocked that my store is doing $35.00 for EM drafts, but hasn't said what prizes are going to be yet but I dont think he has the packs to do a prize pool in EM. Modern masters drafts were 45 i think so just over msrp is nice.
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May 27, 2016 19:27
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Telex posted:yeah. Okay. Sure thing. totally paying $50 to draft and get a pity pack of SoI if I wash out. This is swiss, so the average win is 1.5 packs of EMA, which means you're spending $50 for statistically 4.5 packs of EMA, or $5 for the opportunity to draft on top of the 4.5 packs you're buying. If you're in the top 4, you break even (having paid $50 for 5 packs). It's not amazing prizing but it's not completely terrible.
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May 27, 2016 19:30
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I think it's pretty terrible when most of the time when you pay msrp on 3 packs in a non-garbage store you're buying 5 packs. Telex did you say you were in NY, are those montasy's prices?
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May 27, 2016 19:32
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Imagine if wizards just fuckin' printed enough of the set that stores could sell packs at MSRP.
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May 27, 2016 19:34
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Zoness posted:I think it's pretty terrible when most of the time when you pay msrp on 3 packs in a non-garbage store you're buying 5 packs. I'm seriously glad that both my LGS's charge MSRP for everything. I couldn't imagine going to a store that continually fucks me.
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May 27, 2016 19:36
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Entropic posted:Imagine if wizards just fuckin' printed enough of the set that stores could sell packs at MSRP. Print to meet demand!?! Next thing you know this guy will be asking for free $50 bills in every pack. E: Errant Gin Monks posted:I'm seriously glad that both my LGS's charge MSRP for everything. I couldn't imagine going to a store that continually fucks me. I don't blame my LGS for selling in-demand, low print-run products for above MSRP. They're a small business and if the extra few bucks per sale is enough to keep a good store open I'll deal with it. I do blame WotC for not doing another print-run for a product people clearly want to buy. ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 19:40 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 19:36
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Weren't most MM15 packs sold at msrp? I thought it was just the first set that had huge supply issues.
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May 27, 2016 19:40
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I keep waiting for them to finally dial down the caution just slightly for the overly-paranoid-about-a-Chronicles-scenario standard they set with the first Modern Masters. If anything MM increased the price of modern staples. The lesson they should be taking here isn't "The set sold out! Huge success! Do that again!" it's "we sold out of this set and didn't put a dent in the secondary market, maybe next time we could lower the MSRP by a buck or two, print twice as much, make more money, and still not piss of the collectors."
Entropic fucked around with this message at 19:46 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 19:43
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1. You cast Animate Dead and choose a target card in your graveyard. 2. It enters the battlefield and you attach it to the target card in your graveyard, as per "Enchant creature card in your graveyard". It is not attached to a card on the battlefield at this point. 3. Animate Dead's "When Animate Dead enters the battlefield" ability triggers and is stacked. 4. When the ability resolves, the creature card is put onto the battlefield, Animate Dead's Enchant ability is swapped, and it is attached to the creature as part of the resolution of the same trigger. Replace 1 with You flicker Animate Dead and the result is almost exactly the same. 1. You flicker Animate Dead. 2. As per rule 303.4f, as the aura enters the battlefield you choose a legal object according to the aura's ability and attach the aura to it. As Animate Dead is treated as a new entity, it does not "remember" that its triggered ability resolved previously. So you choose a "creature card in your graveyard" and attach Animate Dead to that card in your graveyard. 3. Animate Dead's "When Animate Dead enters the battlefield" ability triggers and is stacked. 4. When the ability resolves, the creature card is put onto the battlefield, Animate Dead's Enchant ability is swapped, and it is attached to the creature as part of the resolution of the same trigger. I mean yes, I totally agree that this is not the best wording, but it's the one that is consistent to how the original card worked.
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May 27, 2016 19:45
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ThePeavstenator posted:I don't blame my LGS for selling in-demand, low print-run products for above MSRP. They're a small business and if the extra few bucks per sale is enough to keep a good store open I'll deal with it.
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May 27, 2016 19:49
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Can't wait to draft that Honden deck for value.
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May 27, 2016 19:54
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Weird to have an ETERNAL themed draft set that doesn't have Dark Ritual in it. Not that Ritual is the best card ever or anything or that it even sees crazy amounts of play, but its one of the most "old school Magic" feeling cards there is.
Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 20:03 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 19:56
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Angry Grimace posted:Weird to have an ETERNAL themed draft set that doesn't have Dark Ritual in it. Not that Ritual is the best card ever or anything or that it even sees crazy amounts of play, but its one of the most "old school Magic" feeling cards there is. Well what's the point of Dark Ritual with no Hypnotic Spectre?
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May 27, 2016 20:05
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