|
Dr Subterfuge posted:With the way the Idea of Evil is set up, you can make that statement about just about everything. But yes, I think that was explicitly stated about Ganishka. Yeah, Ganishka had to be there so Skull Knight could accidentally stab him with the behelit sword, which caused the dimensions to get mashed together for whatever reason. Which had to happen for Griffith to become humanity's savior. All according to keikaku.
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 21:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 21:05 |
|
|
scary ghost dog posted:i think ganishka was all a part of the plan His arrival really was perfectly timed, his rule is so brutal and disturbing that Midlanders are going to throw themselves at the feet of anyone who can take him down. Add that on to the fact that he ends up murdering his own army makes the cleanup easy for his successor. Even with him being such a blatantly perfect heel for Griffith to topple to finally take his kingdom, I really like how Ganishka was written as a parallel character to Farnese's father, being the guy that rules with an iron fist because he's secretly the most insecure person on earth. Farnese's mother even has a line about him "needing to stick his tentacles in everything", and seeing as reincarnated Ganishka has literal tentacles that can extend across the world it becomes a pretty literal comparison. In the end they have more resources than anyone on Earth, but they're both helpless to defy Griffith's will. At this point I'm really curious to see what role the godhand actually play in things, they've all manipulated the events to lead up to now to happen, but Griffith/Femto is the only one that humans know about. And it's kind of unclear whether they're serving or attempting to subvert the Idea of Evil.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 22:28
|
|
|
That's one of the things I really like about Berserk - how completely opaque some aspects of it is, perhaps most notably Griffith's motivations and plans, without it hurting the narrative. In the case of Griffith's ambitions it's become a sort of ontological mystery at the center of the plot. For all we know his drive to be the ultimate Just God-King might eventually lead him to attempt to dismantle the God Hand and the Idea of Evil itself, which would potentially leave him open to be insanely brutally murdered by Guts. 
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 22:57
|
|
|
scary ghost dog posted:i think ganishka was all a part of the plan He's also the perfect example of what happens to those who don't obey Griffith/Femto's will in one fell stroke. Still doesn't mean there won't be more like him depending on how the Apostles like just fighting in gladiatorial arenas and waging Griffith's wars and not following their own monstrous urges and desires. Just because maybe Griffith cares about being a Just-God King doesn't mean the apostles nor the rest of the Godhand care which what makes it all the more interesting. How soon is that Berserk show going to start airing? I want to see animated Puck and Gut's Beast of Darkness.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 04:43
|
|
|
I don't think Griffith cares about being just at all. He wrecked the world to achieve his childish fantasy of ruling a white city. There is no limit to what he would do to preserve that city, which is why he will never succeed. Humans are gonna be human.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 11:14
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:I don't think Griffith cares about being just at all. He wrecked the world to achieve his childish fantasy of ruling a white city. There is no limit to what he would do to preserve that city, which is why he will never succeed. Humans are gonna be human. I think he cares about being just because it's harder to dominate an unruly mob that hates you than a bunch of feet-kissing acolytes who see you as their big feathery savior. Then again, I don't think it's necessarily a conscious decision to try and do the right thing, it's just him doing what works best for him in pursuit of his goals. I think the big dangling thing that will probably be central to the conflict being reignited in earnest is why Griffith sent the war demons after Flora. She was an old rear end lady who was gonna die soon anyway just farting around in the woods. The fact that he went out of his way and sent a pair of his heaviest hitters to make sure she was dead implies that magic users represent some kind of problem for him. And now we just so happen to be on an island that is full of magic users, with two of the major supporting cast members being magic users. I bet dude's gonna start a witch hunt that'll make Mozgus's fun at the Tower of Rebirth look like a pre-school Halloween party
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 11:55
|
|
|
Griffith went after Flora because she was represented an idea opposed to his own (and the world's). The real threat to Griffith is a belief system to shape reality. Griffith is motivated by a sense of injustice and unfairness. He believed himself to be worthy of throne by his own merit and did whatever it took to make that so, even if it opposed fate. However, he realized that he is still guided by fate as a God hand member. I think Griffith will do a turnabout eventually.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 13:30
|
|
|
Flora was cool and I hope Schierke becomes like her.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 13:46
|
|
|
Angrymantium posted:At this point I'm really curious to see what role the godhand actually play in things, they've all manipulated the events to lead up to now to happen, but Griffith/Femto is the only one that humans know about. And it's kind of unclear whether they're serving or attempting to subvert the Idea of Evil. If the Idea is to be believed, it's purpose is to channel collective human thought and to provide some reason for the evil in the world. The Idea may not even have agency; it tells Griffith to do whatever he wants. The Godhand and apostles only seem to be special in that they had amassed enough "something" (despair, grief?) to make a human sacrifice (but not just murder, some personal sacrifice, but not if you're Void sacrificing Gaiseric's kingdom, if that's what happened). As discussed in pages past, they currently appear to represent some aspect of evil, but as you point out, no one knows about them... so it all seems kinda silly. Humans are terribly fickle and have a rather hosed up view of evil. The apostles are apparently only evil because of their excess. Nina likes loving, but not as much as Wyald. Guts likes swinging his sword, but not as much as much as Grunbeld (but is he actually evil?). Zodd is focused on battlefields. In any case, what humans see is usually wrong. They think Guts and Shierke are evil, until their village is saved. Guts is often the scapegoat, until he's seen to be defeating something more scary. On the other hand, Griffith is seen as a godlike savior (with beautiful hair), but we all know that his ambition and pride aren't going to sit well in Falconia when he has his temper tantrum. (Casca didn't choose me, I'll attempt suicide then punish the one she did choose; "You people will all be punished if you can't even make Rickert see the light"; etc.). It seems like the only way for humans to "get what they want" here is to have the godhand in the world, presumably so they can be demonstrably destroyed then people will have their utopia. Griffith putting them all on trial seems far fetched (and slow). If they all appear at once, the resulting melee would likely destroy everyone (but Griffith's self destructive nature might set this off). If Guts kills them all (slow), no one will get to see the destruction of evil. Maybe the only way is to have one big human/spirit orgy where magic wraps up all the godhand and apostles and stuffs them into the abyss, but then people are back to anarchy and the idea of evil (and Guts might need to die too). It's either that or Evangelion, where the only way out is for everyone to go. So yeah, the godhand. Do they ever actually do anything outside eclipses, or do they just sit in their Escherland drinking tea waiting for some aggrieved caller with a Benefit? Is there any way to make them useful in the story? PhantomOfTheCopier fucked around with this message at 17:23 on May 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 17:21
|
|
|
maybe griffith sacrifices the god hand to become the idea of good
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
temple posted:Griffith went after Flora because she was represented an idea opposed to his own (and the world's). The real threat to Griffith is a belief system to shape reality. The Godhand are fate personified, so for them there is no escaping it. Although the fact that two sacrifices were never actually properly sacrificed might have allowed a fragment of his humanity to remain. PhantomOfTheCopier posted:What's the point of the Godhand anyway? I don't get the impression that they've manipulated anything, only that they happen to represent certain elements aspects of the human condition that drive events. They explicitly stated that they manipulated events so Griffith would be born and eventually become one of them.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 18:16
|
|
|
The God Hand are evil gods and they do vague evil god things. Like Slann was probably behind the whole situation with the trolls, since she shows up in Qliphoth to attack Guts. They can manipulate things without necessarily showing up and gloating about it. Griffith was the only with a physical form before, and that was only because of the crazy sequence of events at the Tower of Conviction. He basically broke his buddies out of astral jail and now they're free to run roughshod over the physical world. I think if the God Hand are "defeated" it will just be putting them back into the astral realms, along with all the dragons and unicorns and poo poo. Killing them permanently doesn't seem to be on the table, at least so far, the Elf King is probably gonna give us another big exposition dump about them.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 18:20
|
|
|
Slan's entire deal with setting up the Pagan religions like the Baphomet cannibal sex cult, I think it was Goddess of the Flame, so her whole deal seems to be basic sadomasochism, torture and lust for the gently caress of it. Not sure whether Void would be Gaiseric or the "Holy Man" that Gaiseric locked in the Tower of Retribution/Conviction, but they'd both fit if given the proper backstory with Void's manipulation of mankind being planting or setting up the Holy See Church. Probably the only way to defeat the Godhand, if ever possible is to I guess fight them or return them to the humans they once were.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 19:38
|
|
|
Void is the holy man, Skull Knight is Gaiseric
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 19:56
|
|
|
I wonder if Void sacrificed his congregation; that might explain why it's Gaiseric's kingdom but still something that Void could "offer," and something that would genuinely hurt to lose.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 21:13
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I wonder if Void sacrificed his congregation; that might explain why it's Gaiseric's kingdom but still something that Void could "offer," and something that would genuinely hurt to lose. But the story went that he prayed for God to punish Gaiseric. Without any existing apostles or Godhand, maybe Void didn't really have to sacrifice something important to him to get what he wanted. Also, kind of funny that Gaiseric's use of Human Skulls are on both Skull Knight and Void.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 22:22
|
|
|
Crabtree posted:But the story went that he prayed for God to punish Gaiseric. Without any existing apostles or Godhand, maybe Void didn't really have to sacrifice something important to him to get what he wanted.   I think it's heavily alluded that Void actually has quite a few skeletons in the closet. 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 23:24
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:I don't think Griffith cares about being just at all. He wrecked the world to achieve his childish fantasy of ruling a white city. There is no limit to what he would do to preserve that city, which is why he will never succeed. Humans are gonna be human. I think he cares about appearing just. So he'll take poo poo when people say it to his face and appear to be a calm, forgiving lord. But we've seen more than once that he can hold a grudge and has no qualms about using assassins or blackmail to settle scores behind the scenes. Which I think is probably where Guts is going to hit him hardest, by cracking that image he's set up over all the people of his kingdom and getting Griffith to reveal what he really is.
|
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 23:43
|
|
|
Crabtree posted:But the story went that he prayed for God to punish Gaiseric. Without any existing apostles or Godhand, maybe Void didn't really have to sacrifice something important to him to get what he wanted. Also, kind of funny that Gaiseric's use of Human Skulls are on both Skull Knight and Void. He prayed and some "angels" appeared and granted his wish. The God Hand play fast and loose with things like "causality". Heck, Femto was probably there too.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 23:56
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:I think he cares about appearing just. So he'll take poo poo when people say it to his face and appear to be a calm, forgiving lord. But we've seen more than once that he can hold a grudge and has no qualms about using assassins or blackmail to settle scores behind the scenes. Which I think is probably where Guts is going to hit him hardest, by cracking that image he's set up over all the people of his kingdom and getting Griffith to reveal what he really is. Griffith assassinated the duke and queen because they had previously tried to kill him. Guts was the one that got sword happy and had to kill kids. At every point, Guts was side by side with Griffith in the political part so it makes both of them look bad. The only cold blooded murder on Griffith's hands is killing the pederast, which I know this is SA, but most people aren't going to cry over a child molester getting a saber sandwich. temple fucked around with this message at 03:15 on May 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 02:59
|
|
|
temple posted:Griffith assassinated the duke and queen because they had previously tried to kill him. Guts was the one that got sword happy and had to kill kids. At every point, Guts was side by side with Griffith in the political part so it makes both of them look bad. The only cold blooded murder on Griffith's hands is killing the pederast, which I know this SA, but most people aren't going to cry over a child molester getting a saber sandwich. Uh, also all the Hawks.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 03:11
|
|
|
skasion posted:Uh, also all the Hawks.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 03:17
|
|
|
temple posted:Griffith assassinated the duke and queen because they had previously tried to kill him. Guts was the one that got sword happy and had to kill kids. At every point, Guts was side by side with Griffith in the political part so it makes both of them look bad. The only cold blooded murder on Griffith's hands is killing the pederast, which I know this SA, but most people aren't going to cry over a child molester getting a saber sandwich. Griffith was the one trying to gain something out the assassinations though. The people Guts and the Hawks killed they were just following orders, on or off the battlefield, so their hands are a little cleaner in that they didn't have any insidious plan always at play. I mean it sucks that Guts killed Adonis when he was just after his father, but Gut's had so much blood on his hands by that point that it was inconsequential to the sin he will continue to commit in order to survive while Griffith will loving sacrifice them all because gently caress it, dreams.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 03:17
|
|
|
Crabtree posted:Griffith was the one trying to gain something out the assassinations though. The people Guts and the Hawks killed they were just following orders, on or off the battlefield, so their hands are a little cleaner in that they didn't have any insidious plan always at play. I mean it sucks that Guts killed Adonis when he was just after his father, but Gut's had so much blood on his hands by that point that it was inconsequential to the sin he will continue to commit in order to survive while Griffith will loving sacrifice them all because gently caress it, dreams.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 03:21
|
|
|
temple posted:So the Duke didn't slap him and send an arrow at his heart with poison no less? And the queen didn't have him poisoned at the ceremony for killing her lover. unknown to the King? Griffith's power was established regardless because his success on the battlefield. Welcome to the middle ages, the game of thrones is just a sign of how much you've really arrived at court. And frankly, if you or someone else weren't trying to kill, gently caress or use you for some sort of gain, you weren't much of a big deal. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 04:54
|
|
|
Begemot posted:He prayed and some "angels" appeared and granted his wish. Void probably granted his own wish.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 05:04
|
|
temple posted:Griffith assassinated the duke and queen because they had previously tried to kill him. That doesn't really matter though, not in and of its self at least. The point is that he had them killed in the shadows and came out of it smelling like roses, looking like the defender of the princess and the poor victim of an attempted assassination and instead of trying to bring any of those crimes to light, because of course he was still just a commoner, he had them killed through deceit and murder. He threw away everything because Guts finally had the guts to try and do something other than be another one of Griffith's tools, for wanting to be seen on equal footing with Griffith. My whole point was that he cares about his image, his own self imposed image of what he and the world should be is all that matters to him and when something doesn't along with it, tends to be the few times Griffith gets visibly agitated.
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 05:26
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:That doesn't really matter though, not in and of its self at least. The point is that he had them killed in the shadows and came out of it smelling like roses, looking like the defender of the princess and the poor victim of an attempted assassination and instead of trying to bring any of those crimes to light, because of course he was still just a commoner, he had them killed through deceit and murder. He threw away everything because Guts finally had the guts to try and do something other than be another one of Griffith's tools, for wanting to be seen on equal footing with Griffith. My whole point was that he cares about his image, his own self imposed image of what he and the world should be is all that matters to him and when something doesn't along with it, tends to be the few times Griffith gets visibly agitated. I know, Griffith was wrong to rape Casca, it was spiteful and done to signify his power. However, Griffith isn't some big bad guy. The Hawks were willing to die for him. Only because their deaths were reduced to a single choice does it seem more horrifying than them slowly dying and being replaced on the battlefield. The Hawks doomed themselves as much as Griffith with their blind loyalty, something even Guts scoffed at. As a leader of the Hawks and now Midland, Griffith is shown as a just ruler and he is only granting people what they want. People were oppressing themselves with or without Griffith.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 06:13
|
|
|
"temple" posted:I know, Griffith was wrong to rape Casca, it was spiteful and done to signify his power. However, Griffith isn't some big bad guy. The Hawks were willing to die for him. Only because their deaths were reduced to a single choice does it seem more horrifying than them slowly dying and being replaced on the battlefield. The Hawks doomed themselves as much as Griffith with their blind loyalty, something even Guts scoffed at. As a leader of the Hawks and now Midland, Griffith is shown as a just ruler and he is only granting people what they want. People were oppressing themselves with or without Griffith. Just because he is not constantly twirling a mustache and cackling diabolically does not mean he is not the big bad. He just has depth to him. His justice is basically 'Might makes right'. Even his current kingdom only exists because he released monsters on the world and at no point does he indicate any intention to clean that up. Instead people have to die trying to reach his 'safety' so they can worship him as a godking. And his excuse for everything is that a lot of people have suffered died already, so why stop now?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 08:23
|
|
|
temple posted:\ what about the part where he sent a giant dragon man and big dog/minotaur dude with a massive murder boner to kill an old lady who was minding her own business?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 10:18
|
|
|
That's really stupid. Griffith is literally one of the five baddest(not the good bad) dudes on earth.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 16:03
|
|
|
"Griffith was wrong to rape Casca" is a hot contender for understatement of the year. What about the hundreds of people who died at the Tower of Conviction ceremony just so that he could have a body again? Is that justified because hey their lives sucked anyway? I mean if you're going to excuse his rape of the person who rescued him and his indiscriminate mass murder, who the hell could possibly qualify as a "big bad"?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 16:24
|
|
|
#griffithdidnothingwrong
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 16:52
|
|
|
Piriwi posted:The Godhand... They explicitly stated that they manipulated events so Griffith would be born and eventually become one of them. pre:(The Eclipse, leading to the invocation of doom): Thou art... the one chosen by the hand of the great god. ... because you had those qualities, [the behelit] fell into your hands. ... you used the behelit to summon us He will offer all of you as a sacrifice. All lies within the currents of causality. ... (The escape): We ourselves are not gods, after all. Or else this too was fated to happen. If Griffith is the human manifestation with the power to carry out the will of man, then the other Godhand seem to be ineffectual rejects, unless their sole purpose (prescribed by the Idea) is to be the representation of evil that Griffith is meant to destroy. Most of this is off canon, though. If we're absent c83, we seem limited to a Godhand that believes it can basically predict causality (with few exceptions), but otherwise it had to wait 216 years for Griffith. The Godhand seems only to attempt minimal manifestation in the dark corners of the world, and, from what we've seen, limits such torture to Guts. I'd buy that Slan may have "helped" the trolls and such, but there's no evidence that they impact individual circumstances. Unless I'm forgetting some other conversation from the source material, the Godhand don't seem to 'do' very much except act as the gatekeepers to apostlehood.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 17:24
|
|
|
Isn't Griffiths job description literally, "big bad guy of the universe"? Even if it wasn't, raping some girl to literal insanity for funsies isn't really something that can just be casually disregarded.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
That is because Griffith is an insanely petty man. He is awful selfish too. He isn't that likable.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
BUT THAT HAIR!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 18:36
|
|
|
I think that griffith is the bad guy and that he's going to get his rear end kicked by guts who is the good guy
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
Griffith is the bad guy but he's super pretty so that makes him a good guy imo
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 21:05 |
|
|
I think that Griffith will lose his armies and adoring populace because of his own actions before Guts comes knocking. Then Griffith will beat Guts up until Guts chops him in half with his giant sword, possibly in a scene reminiscent of their battle in the snow.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 19:21
|
|