|
Why the gently caress did they buff LBV 
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 17:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 07:14 |
|
|
Psion posted:Yeah, they're clearly trying to make it so grenades/dynamite are actually viable instead of "literally no point to take this if you have molotovs" which is okay, I guess. We'll see how much the 10 second hit to molotov time matters. I've seen fire mines in use, and I'm a little skeptical: considering how point-heavy they are and how not-spectacular they were in action. Like, good, but not mega OP super powerful. Fire mines actually kinda suck because it seems like the pattern of the fire is random and usually unhelpful - I mean, I glazed over during the whole discussion of how exactly it works because I don't think any of you knew what you were talking about, but I gathered that Shanks doesn't even want to use them as a gimmick anymore and that's generally pretty bad. Although that might've been because cops will somehow magically avoid setting them off until just after they've turned off a power box or something. I don't think nerfing fire mines is the right thing to do given the crazy point investment (in the same tree as drill skills, no less, so you'll probably be overspending if you want those + good mines). Molotovs I understand, although I dunno if that'll get me to switch throwables. Maybe I'll try shuriken if my guns aren't super ammo efficient, or dynamite if I want to contribute to blowing up Captain Also yes buffing LBV lmao e: Ex-Prez LBV is now tied with Ex-Prez Suit for dodge (base 20), great ClonedPickle fucked around with this message at 18:05 on May 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 17:53
|
|
|
yeah, that's more or less what I meant, I just used too many words. if Shanks isn't willing to use something as a gimmick, that something is genuinely not worth it. This is currently true of fire mines. fire mines should've been buffed. something like "a reliable detonation pattern and a better proximity fuse" would count as a buff, they don't need to make them burn longer or hotter or whatever. ClonedPickle posted:e: Ex-Prez LBV is now tied with Ex-Prez Suit for dodge (base 20), great so suit dodge is literally just "I don't have the points to put in the LBV +armor skills?" sure okay Psion fucked around with this message at 20:16 on May 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 17:59
|
|
|
I don't really have any issues with firetrap mines although I haven't tried using them to defend boxes. However, oneshotting full health dozers with a well placed mine is worth the price of admission to me. All they need to do is make frag grenades immune to police fire and I'll use them again.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 20:30
|
|
|
UnknownMercenary posted:I don't really have any issues with firetrap mines although I haven't tried using them to defend boxes. However, oneshotting full health dozers with a well placed mine is worth the price of admission to me. If they make frag grenades immune to cop bullets, then there is literally no point in taking dynamite ever. Tripmines were DW viable, at least on some maps. Hox Breakout was actually a great build for it - put tripmines in front of spawn points on day 1 and of course c4 the parking garage doors. On day 2, a well placed tripmine could protect the powerbox as long as you remember to place another one after the fire dies down. The key is to start by placing it right on the powerbox then slide it down to the floor below the power box. It had to be aligned just right in order to trigger a cop running for the powerbox. Obviously c4 was useful for objectives on day 2 as well. I am trying out a yakuza berserker build and finding it pretty good with an AA12 and HE Judge and shotgun skills. I had bullseye but I might switch that out now that it was nerfed.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
clockworkjoe posted:If they make frag grenades immune to cop bullets, then there is literally no point in taking dynamite ever. Well, right now there's no reason to take frag grenades over dynamite. You can learn to adjust the arc for the throw so they're not instantly detonated, but the only difference between the two is that frag grenades can get blown up in your face. Make them the same if you're not willing to give them any statistical differences, IMO. Also, I don't read TFR but this is what I imagine it's like: A Steam forums discussion about the real names of PD2 guns turns into a slapfight about which version of the AUG is in the game.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 20:48
|
|
|
Post in it and casually mention the word "clip"
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 23:19
|
|
|
Pedestrian Xing posted:Post in it and casually mention the word "clip" The thread is already nucular
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 23:27
|
|
|
Those changes are all largely stupid. It's totally unclear what motivated the changes, since they make good things better, and bad things worse. Maybe I'll say more later. Sincerest of lols at the tripmine nerf, though.
|
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2016 23:29
|
|
|
Psion posted:so suit dodge is literally just "I don't have the points to put in the LBV +armor skills?" sure okay I mean, Ex-Prez gives +5% dodge in general and +20% for specifically vests, so I get that they would be close, but I think Overkill made the dodge changes to vests and only bothered to update Crook. I wouldn't be surprised if they go "OH RIGHT EX-PRESIDENT IS A DECK" in an upcoming patch or something. Is there any other deck with specific dodge-for-vest-only bonuses? On the other hand, I don't see a way to get Overkill Aced without losing out a skill I consider crucial so that's pretty much the only leg up suit Ex-Prez builds have right now: pretending to also be Rogue. LuciferMorningstar posted:Those changes are all largely stupid. It's totally unclear what motivated the changes Probably the steam forums, given how stupid they are
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 00:42
|
|
|
So has everyone switched to the beta or is it more of a back and forth thing? Check out the beta for a bit then go back to base game?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 01:39
|
|
|
TopHatGenius posted:So has everyone switched to the beta or is it more of a back and forth thing? Check out the beta for a bit then go back to base game? I've stayed away from the beta because I am lazy and don't have time to play the game at the moment. Although I don't know how long I can stay away at this point because with every step they take they sort of back up or stub their toe several feet backwards. The beta feels like it'll be here throughout most of the summer at this rate.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 02:40
|
|
ClonedPickle posted:Fire mines actually kinda suck because it seems like the pattern of the fire is random and usually unhelpful - I mean, I glazed over during the whole discussion of how exactly it works because I don't think any of you knew what you were talking about, but I gathered that Shanks doesn't even want to use them as a gimmick anymore and that's generally pretty bad. Although that might've been because cops will somehow magically avoid setting them off until just after they've turned off a power box or something. I don't think nerfing fire mines is the right thing to do given the crazy point investment (in the same tree as drill skills, no less, so you'll probably be overspending if you want those + good mines). I don't think it's random. It's most predictable, but the patterns are bad to the extent that they don't really behave in a useful way, given that these are tripmines. When I think of tripmines, I think of a little thingy that you stick on a wall, such that the beam is perpendicular to the direction that an enemy is running. That way, if they're going down a hallway, they literally can't avoid the beam. Turns out that fire mines don't work well with that setup, which is counter-intuitive, and somewhat ineffective. More on that soon. If you stick a fire mine on the ground, so that the laser is pointing to the sky, detonating that mine causes a circle of fire to appear, centered on the mine. It's basically a molotov, and it covers a pretty substantial area. Not bad, since you could kind of treat them like 14 extra molotovs. The problem is kind of obvious, though: are cops necessarily going to path close enough to the mine if it's in the middle of a hallway, pointing to the ceiling? Maybe, maybe not. Things change is you stick the mine on the floor again, but this time in a door frame:  That's a line of fire, not a circle. If you have a really long and narrow hallway with a doorframe in it, this works out pretty well. There are, however, plenty of scenarios in which this sort of setup just doesn't exist in any significant capacity, which limits the utility of the mines. And then there's this, my primary source of angst with regard to mines:  The bullet impacts are where the mine used to be. When you detonate a mine that is on the wall, it spreads the fire primary up and down the wall, and only a tiny bit on the floor. In most instances, at least. So if you use mines in the way I originally described (the intuitive way), you waste basically all of your fire. You basically have to stick the mines on the floor in very narrow areas to get the most mileage out of them. All in all, this makes mines really bad at doing the one thing they ought to be able to do: guard objectives. If you stick the mine on the wall near the objective (under it and pointing out, or with the beam running in front of the objective), the explosion might not kill the cop, and fire almost certainly won't spread far enough to be useful. You need to stick the mine on the floor. It has to be positioned very carefully so that it actually goes off. And even then, I've seen cops dash over the mine, turn off a powerbox, and then blow up. So they suck, basically. And now, it's even more likely that a lone cop will blow up a mine, only for the fire to dissipate before more cops show up. It's absolutely absurd that tripmines are getting a nerf, especially considering their performance relative to sentries. Sentries are replaceable and effective, both at guarding objectives and killing cops in general. Tripmines are not. Sentries don't require much consideration with regard to placement (don't stick them in the middle of a room). Tripmines do. I might as well just camp a spawn/objective with an incendiary China Puff and get better results with no points invested. UnknownMercenary posted:I don't really have any issues with firetrap mines although I haven't tried using them to defend boxes. However, oneshotting full health dozers with a well placed mine is worth the price of admission to me. Dozers are sufficiently easy to kill with a variety of methods that require no points invested that this shouldn't make any real difference.
|
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 02:43
|
|
|
UnknownMercenary posted:Well, right now there's no reason to take frag grenades over dynamite. You can learn to adjust the arc for the throw so they're not instantly detonated, but the only difference between the two is that frag grenades can get blown up in your face. Make them the same if you're not willing to give them any statistical differences, IMO. You can shoot your own grenades to airburst them, so they're better than dynamite.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 02:46
|
|
|
I'm trying to find good weapons to use for a crook or ex prez LBV dodge build. Right now I've been using the valk or a modded car 4 and either a micro uzi or the P90 and even with crits, they seem lackluster on DW. Can I get radically better weapons if I ace sneaky bastard? I also pick inspire and swan song to carry teams but I could drop swan song at least.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 08:09
|
|
clockworkjoe posted:I'm trying to find good weapons to use for a crook or ex prez LBV dodge build. Right now I've been using the valk or a modded car 4 and either a micro uzi or the P90 and even with crits, they seem lackluster on DW. Can I get radically better weapons if I ace sneaky bastard? I also pick inspire and swan song to carry teams but I could drop swan song at least. If you're taking a rifle, IMO you ought to take some skills out of Technician-Oppressor. Particularly the +15 rounds/mag and the reload speed buff. I think it's also a mistake not to run an HE Judge as a secondary in that setup. A few silencer skills also go a long way. If rifles don't do it for you, take a concealable Loco with some shotgun skills. If you can't do well with the Loco, well...
|
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 08:20
|
|
|
Silencer tree, Dodge tree, Oppressor tree. Ex-prez deck. Silenced Micro Uzi and Clarion. Congrats, you're now a one-man army.
|
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 08:24
|
|
|
WE HAVE DEV STREAM! Outside of OVERKILL having no idea how to use Twitch, there is at least one good idea of Anarchist being remade to hopefully have higher armor regeneration for thicker armors like ITCV than for dodge builds. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 15:44
|
|
|
There's also a bunch of bad ideas, such as lowering the dodge bonuses for sprinting and crouching, and discussion of how Fire Trap was so overpowered (while a few minutes later Jules shoots a cop who is standing in a trip mine laser, about to shut off an objective). And then they almost failed an Overkill heist. They claim dodge builds are able to run through enemies without caring but that really hasn't been true since Rogue was at its best (50 base dodge, 75 while sprinting), and even then there were plenty of times where it didn't work. I really hope there's a way to mod skilltrees because I really don't think Overkill knows what they're doing. I get that Jules is gonna suck on stream because he's gotta juggle a bunch of different things at once but the changes they're making are baffling. And they didn't really discuss the changes they just made beyond "molotovs and fire trap were way too overpowered" and "more changes are coming."
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 19:38
|
|
|
LuciferMorningstar posted:If you're taking a rifle, IMO you ought to take some skills out of Technician-Oppressor. Particularly the +15 rounds/mag and the reload speed buff. I think it's also a mistake not to run an HE Judge as a secondary in that setup. A few silencer skills also go a long way. Body expertise worth it? Also, I have tried the berserker yakuza frenzy build and it doesn't seem that viable on DW because after you get picked up, you have a sliver of health, like maybe 1% or something like that. You have zero margin of error because a single attack that gets past your armor will down you. If they even had the standard 10% health on DW, they would be a little more playable, but it doesn't matter how quick you regen armor on DW, some attacks are going to get through and down you.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 20:45
|
|
|
LuciferMorningstar posted:If you're taking a rifle, IMO you ought to take some skills out of Technician-Oppressor. Particularly the +15 rounds/mag and the reload speed buff. I think it's also a mistake not to run an HE Judge as a secondary in that setup. A few silencer skills also go a long way. If he's running the Valk, I'd say he needs the +15 rounds and the reload. They're pretty much necessary for that gun. clockworkjoe posted:Body expertise worth it? Body expertise works best if you're running shield stumble and armor piercing. The former means less shots to kill a stumbling shields and the latter means you can just unload on a group with browns in it without worrying too much about aiming. Crits are a nice addition as it means you'll never get downed by charging cloakers, but I don't label it as a necessity. Plan Z fucked around with this message at 23:55 on May 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 23:52
|
|
clockworkjoe posted:Body expertise worth it? If you've got the points, you could take BE. You definitely don't need it, though. It just allows you to be lazier about aiming, while saving a bit of ammo. DW Berserker with anything other than Anarchist is a really dangerous proposition. You can do it, but you're probably going to get downed a lot, or be forced to play really, really conservatively. And that's not fun. Even with Anarchist, it can be rough. E: This is also a reason why I think all this discussion about "DW is too easy" and "some builds are OP" are totally misguided. If you use min-maxed builds that rely on information about the game acquired over hundreds of hours, then yeah, the game is going to be pretty easy. Duh. That doesn't mean that the game itself is too easy or unbalanced, and that it absolutely needs to get harder. Making it harder just makes it even less likely that people will try out a sub-optimal build that will inevitably struggle to keep up with mix-maxed builds. Plan Z posted:If he's running the Valk, I'd say he needs the +15 rounds and the reload. They're pretty much necessary for that gun. Oh, absolutely. Those skills also make the Clarion a lot nicer. If you can also squeeze in Bloodlust aced, that works out well, too. Shoot some cops, melee a cop, instantly reload. Repeat indefinitely. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 28, 2016 |
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 01:15
|
|
|
Did that stream give us an ETA on the beta going live?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 01:52
|
|
|
Has Overkill been tweaking spawn rates on overkill and DW? Lately, I've noticed that in some games, spawn rates are very high and enemies are more aggressive than normal. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZAhSSiTPqk I was trying to get some friends through DW hox breakout. Normally, that's not too hard, but normally I don't see every corridor choked with cops. I know they weren't using optimal tactics, but this felt like DW+. Is there any way to tell if they have changed spawn rates?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 09:10
|
|
|
how to be a real girl gamer in PD2
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 06:39
|
|
|
I appreciate this. 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 06:52
|
|
|
Tempest_56 posted:Did that stream give us an ETA on the beta going live? It's looking like next Thursday for most of the integration. I'll post a giant recap infodump here. This is thirdhand via facepunch, via reddit. Note that if you see "claimed" it means someone watching asserted this in the chat. Bolded comments are more important and have less entitled playerbase white noise. My take is that 1) Jules and Tobias are both excellent sources of info who actually have good ideas about how the game works, 2) A large number of the things they don't immediately assert are being planned probably will never happen, 3) they're utilizing some of my more general suggestions for difficulty increases, and 4) the discussion of a separate silenced sentry gun is currently unclear. quote:Big update coming Thursday. Release to live game, many changes. Next revision appears to be a Difficulty rework clockworkjoe posted:Has Overkill been tweaking spawn rates on overkill and DW? Lately, I've noticed that in some games, spawn rates are very high and enemies are more aggressive than normal. For example: Unclear- the big dogs of lua that I could normally ask aren't studying the beta for those things at the moment. Some of this may be a psychological effect of nerfs to player powers in recent patches- though I also feel as if enemies are pathing more aggressively, and spawn lists may have changed. Question: are folks still seeing a spawngroup on DW consisting of a taser and two blue SWAT? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:06 on May 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 06:58
|
|
|
I'm rather dubious about claims that Jules knows how the game "actually works." tl;dr: A lot of this boils down to "Jules thinks X..." Thought processes are rarely justified, and counterarguments are never addressed. Case in point: "Jules loves it, even though it has been poorly recieved." Why does he love it? Why has it been poorly received? Are people just mad about video games, or is there some merit to their irritation? Examples: quote:Anarchist- too strong in beta due to accessibility of skills. ICTV regen ticks to be buffed, suit/LBV nerfed. Suit anarchist would also be impacted by above dodge changes. Anarchist isn't bad in the beta, by any means, but it's still worse than Muscle for armor users, and Grinder/Ex-Prez for dodge people. I don't expect this to change, given the described changes. quote:Claim: non Armor bezerker builds suck. Jules thinks this is ok. Loves concept of risk/reward bezerker, though doesn't care to give players tools to fine tune their health Jules is mostly right here, I think, but only when it comes to light-armor Anarchist builds. Others are viable in that you can get your team to carry you, but they certainly don't work particularly well. And even then, the light-armor Anarchist is notably worse than other light-armor variants. Post-nerf, I assume they will be even worse. In a vacuum, the risk/reward trade-off makes sense. This isn't a vacuum, though. If you don't talk about builds in relative terms, I'll have a hard time believing you know what you're talking about, or that you understand what's going on. quote:Hardware expert aced, kickstarter basic seen as weak use of points. Jules is fine with the point price & % success (he says 35%, not sure if that is bad memory or coming change as it is 30% now) "Look guys, I know you have your opinions, but this is mine, and we're sticking with mine. No, I won't explain further." LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 08:13 on May 29, 2016 |
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 08:11
|
|
|
Jules might not be the best guy to touch the difficulty as has a poor perspective on other lesser players and good for him to acknowledge that a little bit. No Deathwish plus please, just no, leave that garbage sandboxed in mods. Overkill plus might be interesting if it is OK level of health and damage, DW enemies, aggressiveness, map changes, "Realism" mode with no outlines or possibly HUD. If Jules had more time he would be able to try to justify himself. I am weary of him though putting out balance changes since as a tester they always want something more difficult even if they do it inadvertently. There are cases where testers got a hold of the game in such a fashion and made the game unplayable/unenjoyable.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 08:37
|
|
oohhboy posted:If Jules had more time he would be able to try to justify himself. I am weary of him though putting out balance changes since as a tester they always want something more difficult even if they do it inadvertently. There are cases where testers got a hold of the game in such a fashion and made the game unplayable/unenjoyable. I want more difficult stuff. The people I often play with want more difficult stuff. But these changes don't really get there, and making things more difficult such that some builds end up relegated to underused gimmicks isn't a good move. The fact that Jules never talks about the builds that are obviously optimal says a lot, IMO. It's even more telling that builds that aren't particularly good are thought to be "perfectly fine" or are nerfed.
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 08:43
|
|
|
RetroDalek the 74 hour guy probably is the guy to go to for the feel of the game. He isn't pro-ed up and running the numbers. He is going to be playing with these lower tier builds with much less inside knowledge and raw FPS skills. That knowledge and FPS skills is why Jules keeps nerfing these builds since he hasn't figured out that it is him that is picking up the slack not that the builds are strong.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 09:14
|
|
oohhboy posted:RetroDalek the 74 hour guy probably is the guy to go to for the feel of the game. He isn't pro-ed up and running the numbers. He is going to be playing with these lower tier builds with much less inside knowledge and raw FPS skills. That knowledge and FPS skills is why Jules keeps nerfing these builds since he hasn't figured out that it is him that is picking up the slack not that the builds are strong. If you're bad at the shootmans, don't play DW. Everything is still entirely viable on Overkill.
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 09:40
|
|
|
LuciferMorningstar posted:If you're bad at the shootmans, don't play DW. Everything is still entirely viable on Overkill. Why do you insist on this quaint notion that I am bad at shootmans? You do realise I am arguing for the improved viability for these lesser builds, something that you and I want. Go jump into that foul kitty litter box called Deathwish+ and see if it is fun or even playable. The people in there are you amplified.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 10:24
|
|
oohhboy posted:Why do you insist on this quaint notion that I am bad at shootmans? You do realise I am arguing for the improved viability for these lesser builds, something that you and I want. You're arguing that things ought to be balanced around people who don't have much experience with the game, like this Dalek guy. It's a mistake to not run the numbers and take those into account. We can agree that all builds should be viable, but that doesn't mean DW should be particularly accessible.
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 10:26
|
|
|
I was arguing for RetroDalek's influence as the anti-you/Jules. Once you get to the level you or I play at, we have lost that perspective. Regardless of difficulty it still has to be fun and not be a masochist to enjoy. You want people to keep playing as you go up the difficulty levels not kick them to the curb.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 10:37
|
|
oohhboy posted:I was arguing for RetroDalek's influence as the anti-you/Jules. Once you get to the level you or I play at, we have lost that perspective. Regardless of difficulty it still has to be fun and not be a masochist to enjoy. You want people to keep playing as you go up the difficulty levels not kick them to the curb. We agree. Not sure why you think I'm like Jules in that regard. However, given the age of the game, it stands to reason that the highest difficulties ought to remain interesting for those of us that have been around for most of the game's life. E: My main criticism of Jules is that he doesn't ever evaluate things in relative terms. Why does he feel that Anarchist is overpowered in the Beta, especially relative to other choices? From what I can see, it's definitely not. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 10:49 on May 29, 2016 |
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 10:43
|
|
|
You're Jules in this regard as you unwittingly to push the game closer to unplayability. Testers get stuck in their own little world and start thinking everyone is as good as them or enjoy the game as same as they do. If DW+ is nothing more than a doubling down on DW it's going to be poo poo. LuciferMorningstar posted:E: My main criticism of Jules is that he doesn't ever evaluate things in relative terms. Why does he feel that Anarchist is overpowered in the Beta, especially relative to other choices? From what I can see, it's definitely not.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 11:32
|
|
oohhboy posted:You're Jules in this regard as you unwittingly to push the game closer to unplayability. In what regard? Please cite a specific example from a recent discussion. At this point, I'm largely pushing back against changes to the beta, and instead arguing that other trees need to be buffed.
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 11:55
|
|
|
LuciferMorningstar posted:I want more difficult stuff. The people I often play with want more difficult stuff. But these changes don't really get there, and making things more difficult such that some builds end up relegated to underused gimmicks isn't a good move. The fact that Jules never talks about the builds that are obviously optimal says a lot, IMO. It's even more telling that builds that aren't particularly good are thought to be "perfectly fine" or are nerfed. You turn in on yourself a bit to the point you didn't seem to know what you want, but whatever.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 12:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 07:14 |
|
oohhboy posted:You turn in on yourself a bit to the point you didn't seem to know what you want, but whatever. I admit to wanting challenging content, but I'm not arguing that nerfing existing builds is the way to achieve that, while Overkill is. If difficulty is to be elevated (on DW), it needs to be done in a more interesting, less "more health and damage for cops, fewer optimal options for players" fashion. Sorry this nuance is so challenging for you.
|
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 12:09
|
|