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Who is the man?? This poll is closed. |
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| Goku |
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202 | 7.09% |
| Vegeta |
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279 | 9.79% |
| Krillin |
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208 | 7.30% |
| Piccolo or his nameks |
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212 | 7.44% |
| Gohan or Cool Gohan |
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135 | 4.74% |
| Yamcha |
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90 | 3.16% |
| Tien |
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120 | 4.21% |
| Muten Roshi |
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89 | 3.12% |
| Tao Pai Pai |
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71 | 2.49% |
| Frieza |
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69 | 2.42% |
| Cell or an android |
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86 | 3.02% |
| Buu |
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62 | 2.18% |
| Hercule "Mark" Satan |
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327 | 11.48% |
| Videl |
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90 | 3.16% |
| Bulma |
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104 | 3.65% |
| Yajirobe |
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99 | 3.47% |
| Ginyu or other Frieza squad guy |
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68 | 2.39% |
| King kai or another kai |
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53 | 1.86% |
| Chi-Chi |
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83 | 2.91% |
| Goten |
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43 | 1.51% |
| Trunks or Cool Trunks |
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112 | 3.93% |
| Bardock |
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48 | 1.68% |
| Other villain of DB,Z, or GT(please post about it!) |
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41 | 1.44% |
| Uub |
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42 | 1.47% |
| Oolong |
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90 | 3.16% |
| Zamasu |
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26 | 0.91% |
| Total: | 1326 votes | ||
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Jedah posted:Did you see the Vegeta-clone "focus" on protecting himself in any way, shape, or form? Because it looked like he just stood completely still while SSJ3 Gotenks pounded on him. But wait, he didn't "let his guard down" because he was "focused." Oh, okay. Stood completely still. Facing him. Completely aware of the attacks coming at him. Compare to Goku getting sniped, where he was completely unaware and let his guard down because he assumed that he had won (and that Freeza was the only potential threat). Not sure why this is a difficult concept for you to grasp.
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May 30, 2016 17:55
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Jedah posted:Did you see the Vegeta-clone "focus" on protecting himself in any way, shape, or form? Because it looked like he just stood completely still while SSJ3 Gotenks pounded on him. But wait, he didn't "let his guard down" because he was "focused." Oh, okay. ... Yes? Again, that is literally how it has always worked. When people are in a fight then are naturally protecting themselves with Ki. Goku is vulnerable to the laser because he isn't focusing anymore. Characters in Dragonball Z are not particularly naturally durable. Goku's more durable than most but he's still not that durable. They are strong because they shield themselves with ki energy. This is the way it has always worked. They need to be focusing to get protection at all and need to be explicitly working to block particularly strong attacks. It is why the iconic "this guy is so strong' scene is him effortlessly tanking powerful blasts. It means they don't need to work, not that they're Superman-style invincible. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:07 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 18:02
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Well I mean that is literally only brought up in the movie so it's just kind of a half assed bullshit explanation.
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May 30, 2016 18:04
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The thing is, we know that Goku has a 'resting' powerlevel of minimum 5000 from as far back as the Frieza saga. And that seems to me a fair bit more than anything Sorbet's ring-laser could manage.
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May 30, 2016 18:06
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CharlestheHammer posted:Well I mean that is literally only brought up in the movie so it's just kind of a half assed bullshit explanation. No it isn't. It's how it functions throughout the series. They even make a joke about it in the Cell saga. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TM7XMr1WNI
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May 30, 2016 18:07
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. It's how it functions throughout the series. They even make a joke about it in the Cell saga. It is not how it functions in the series, no amount of dumb filler will change that. You could get hit I guess if you let your guard down but it never amounted to actual damage and it had nothing to do with Kai or whatever.
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May 30, 2016 18:10
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CharlestheHammer posted:It is not how it functions in the series, no amount of dumb filler will change that. Yes it is? It's how it functions in the manga too. None of the fights in the series assume that a character is just more invincible except the Buu stuff where it isn't a function of his power level but his absurd gum-body regeneration. DBZ characters are not invincible supermen. They are, at best, more durable than regular people. Everything outside of that natural durability is the result of them shielding themselves at all times. It's why they can be caught off guard by relatively weaker opponents and why things like the Destructo Disc can work at all because they cut through that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 18:12
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. It's how it functions throughout the series. They even make a joke about it in the Cell saga. And as far as "ki barriers" go, the best example I can think of was when we saw Vegetto create a literal "barrier" around himself, in order to avoid getting absorbed by Super Buu. But that was an ability that he had to "activate," and we saw the barrier form around him. If a character used a technique like that, I'd never argue with them getting temporary invincibility. At least there's some kind of "tell" that the character is different. However, that was not what happened in the last episode of Super. It was just Vegeta face-tanking attacks from one of the strongest characters in the series with no defense whatsoever. Jedah fucked around with this message at 18:20 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 18:18
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Jedah posted:And as far as "ki barriers" go, the best example I can think of was when we saw Vegetto create a literal "barrier" around himself, in order to avoid getting absorbed by Super Buu. But that was an ability that he had to "activate," and we saw the barrier form around him. Characters are shielded by a natural ki field when they focus on it. It's also how they fly. It is also what their aura is where then do the iconic yelling-and-screaming thing because they are powering that up. That is literally a stated part of how the franchise works. They are focusing their energy to power themselves up. This is, again, a franchise where characters standing still and letting their energy gather to get stronger is a repeated thing we see and where several plot points rely on the fact they are constantly using energy and need to manage it. Jedah posted:It was just Vegeta face-tanking attacks from one of the strongest characters in the series with no defense whatsoever. Are you seriously pretending like "angry character punches someone, they smirk and we see it did no damage" isn't a common goddamn thing in the series? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:23 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 18:21
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Bulma shot young Goku with a gun before he even knew what Ki was or how to use it or anything and he was fine.
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May 30, 2016 18:22
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CubeTheory posted:Bulma shot young Goku with a gun before he even knew what Ki was or how to use it or anything and he was fine. Goku already knows about it even if he doesn't really know about it. He's a natural genius, remember? He also masters the Kamehameha after seeing Roshi do it exactly once with no formal training.
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May 30, 2016 18:26
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cell no sold krillin when he got his perfect form without even knowing he was there. krillin also hurt goku with a rock when he wasn't paying attention there is no hard rule to anything, things work because they work. don't think about it so hard
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May 30, 2016 18:30
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CubeTheory posted:Bulma shot young Goku with a gun before he even knew what Ki was or how to use it or anything and he was fine. I just took it as Sayians being bulletproof. Also, you guys do remember that after getting God-ki, Sayian's base state goes mad up? Base Vegeta is god-tier before powerups are concerned.
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May 30, 2016 18:33
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Vegeta lets his guard down and Krillin is able to blast a hole through his chest. It's exactly the same thing
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May 30, 2016 18:36
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ImpAtom posted:Are you seriously pretending like "angry character punches someone, they smirk and we see it did no damage" isn't a common goddamn thing in the series?
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May 30, 2016 18:39
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Jedah posted:Sure, and that has happened countless times throughout the series. One classic example was Mr. Satan "beating" on Perfect Cell, while he ignored it. However, the power gap between Mr. Satan and Perfect Cell was enormous. Cell had his power level in the millions, while Mr. Satan was just a regular human. To reduce SSJ3 Gotenks down to Mr. Satan's level makes no sense, and I have no idea why you are still making this dumb argument. It also happens with stronger characters than Mr. Satan. Vegeta did it all the goddamn time for example. And even beyond that the gap between Gotenks and Vegeta is extremely goddamn large now too. You're free to dislike it but we already saw Beerus completely wreck the poo poo of literally every strong fighter on Earth without even trying and Vegeta is getting closer to Beerus' level by the day and training almost nonstop while Goten and Trunks basically are 10 year old kids who don't actually go to insane Goku lengths to train. There's no reason to assume that Gotenks should be anywhere near Vegeta and Goku's level at this point. Like, yeah, I think it's a legitimate problem with Super than the God-Power thing means that Goku and Vegeta are the only meaningful fighters in the universe these days, but it's still an actual thing that happens. There is no reason to assume Gotenks should be able to be a meaningful threat to them.
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May 30, 2016 18:43
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Also, to be honest, superhero comics are always a little wonky on internal consistency when it comes to powers. This is due to the fact that powers serve the story, not story serves the power. It is true that internal consistency is important, but it's clear Toriyama is more of a writer who worries more on what's interesting than if it makes a tiny plothole in how powers are portrayed. I find the current wave of comic writers tend to care a bit more about this due to many of them being nerds growing up: they care a lot about this internal consistency and try to keep to it. Older comic writers like Toriyama, I find, tend not to worry too much about it due to this not being something they loved when they were young nor was this considered important when they were writing.
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May 30, 2016 18:43
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Don't overanalyse punchman anims guys.
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May 30, 2016 18:43
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Jedah posted:Sure, and that has happened countless times throughout the series. One classic example was Mr. Satan "beating" on Perfect Cell, while he ignored it. However, the power gap between Mr. Satan and Perfect Cell was enormous. Cell had his power level in the millions, while Mr. Satan was just a regular human. To reduce SSJ3 Gotenks down to Mr. Satan's level makes no sense, and I have no idea why you are still making this dumb argument. I mean, Beerus no-sold SSJ3 Goku and actually had a legit fight (if not at full power) with SSG Goku. The God level is just on another plane, I assume.
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May 30, 2016 18:44
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Now that universe 6's Earth has been revived, if Gotenks of Universe 6 and Gotenks of Universe 7 fusion danced while both ssj3, could the new Super Sayian 3 Gotenks Squared beat Beerus?
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May 30, 2016 18:46
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Covok posted:Now that universe 6's Earth has been revived, if Gotenks of Universe 6 and Gotenks of Universe 7 fusion danced while both ssj3, could the new Super Sayian 3 Gotenks Squared beat Beerus? I assume that they never were born on that world because that Earth is a Earth of suckas. Their strongest fighter is probably Tien or something.
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May 30, 2016 18:46
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ImpAtom posted:I assume that they never were born on that world because that Earth is a Earth of suckas. If Tiencha of Universe 7 fusion danced with Tiencha of Universe 6, would Tiencha Square be relevant at all? Spoilers: No.
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May 30, 2016 18:49
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to be fair, like two people have always been the only meaningful fighters in all of dragon ball. it's always goku and someone else. people like krillin and tien haven't been relevant since like raditz. hell, since piccolo if we're being honest
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May 30, 2016 18:49
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Manatee Cannon posted:to be fair, like two people have always been the only meaningful fighters in all of dragon ball. it's always goku and someone else. people like krillin and tien haven't been relevant since like raditz. hell, since piccolo if we're being honest There was a little Tien development during King Piccolo since Master Roshi's sacrifice finally turned him to good and made him think of things more important than himself, but, yeah, they lost relevance a long time before Raditz. Humans in DBZ aren't important and that's fine. Unless you're Bulma, the woman who can invent anything given the time.
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May 30, 2016 18:52
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Flippinlikebirds posted:Vegeta lets his guard down and Krillin is able to blast a hole through his chest. It's exactly the same thing Basically, Ki works exactly like Green Lantern power ring. You have to keep concentrating to keep the "shields" up.
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May 30, 2016 19:35
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Jedah posted:Sure, and that has happened countless times throughout the series. One classic example was Mr. Satan "beating" on Perfect Cell, while he ignored it. However, the power gap between Mr. Satan and Perfect Cell was enormous. Cell had his power level in the millions, while Mr. Satan was just a regular human. To reduce SSJ3 Gotenks down to Mr. Satan's level makes no sense, and I have no idea why you are still making this dumb argument. Cell also no sold every attack from Vegeta that wasn't the goddamn Final Flash after his transformation. Frieza moved from form 2 to form 3 and went from getting his poo poo stomped to completely ignoring Piccolo. This is a common staple of Dragonball and I really don't see why you are having such a difficult time reconciling it. Neither Goten nor Trunks have engaged in any significant training since the Buu Saga, meaning they have probably backslid since then in terms of power. Vegeta, meanwhile, has undergone something like two or three years of hypersonic lion taming opposite of his rival while training in a completely new form of Ki that upon first showing was able to effortlessly wreck the poo poo out of SSJ3 Goku. So the real question is why on earth you think Gotenks should be a threat to anyone with god Ki. I mean you do remember Beerus literally spanking him until he separated back into Goten and Trunks, right?
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May 30, 2016 20:18
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Caros posted:Neither Goten nor Trunks have engaged in any significant training since the Buu Saga, meaning they have probably backslid since then in terms of power. My original point was this was a lazy filler episode where they didn't bother to think about consistency within the series, which was something DBGT was guilty of. It was probably cheaper to have Vegeta stand there and face-tank attacks rather than animate him going through perfectly-timed dodges and parries. Also, Beerus showing up and beating everybody senseless is a different story altogether. There's no comparison, even if Vegeta has been training under him. Beerus is a God, so there are almost no rules or boundaries for what his character can do. Are you guys seriously comparing Vegeta to Beerus? That seems a bit outrageous. Rutibex posted:I think people are having issue because it doesn't look like copy Vegita is even using God Ki, he doesn't have a blue aura. SSj3 isn't supposed to be a chump form, its supposed to multiply someones power by like 400X and SSJ Blue is stronger than that. So if Vegita in his base power is able to kick SSj3 rear end just like Beerus, it means he has become like 4000x stronger compared to his strength in the Buu saga. Right, there was no aura or any "tell" that the Vegeta-clone was using SSJ Blue, or anything else. Also, why was base-level Cabba able to make Vegeta fight seriously, but suddenly, SSJ3 Gotenks is a total pushover? No matter how you rationalize it with ideas like "ki barriers," that just doesn't make sense. Cabba was excited just to achieve the first level of SSJ. SSJ3 Gotenks should be many, many times stronger than Cabba, even if he's some kind of genius fighter. Jedah fucked around with this message at 20:54 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 20:30
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Caros posted:So the real question is why on earth you think Gotenks should be a threat to anyone with god Ki. I mean you do remember Beerus literally spanking him until he separated back into Goten and Trunks, right? I think people are having issue because it doesn't look like copy Vegita is even using God Ki, he doesn't have a blue aura. SSj3 isn't supposed to be a chump form, its supposed to multiply someones power by like 400X and SSJ Blue is stronger than that. So if Vegita in his base power is able to kick SSj3 rear end just like Beerus, it means he has become like 4000x stronger compared to his strength in the Buu saga.
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May 30, 2016 20:38
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I just want to see Gotenks kick rear end again.
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May 30, 2016 20:41
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Of course, if Vegitas base form is stronger than Gotenks that means that Piccolo is now stronger than Majin Buu, by the transitive property  Buu < SSJ3 Gotenks < Vegita base = Goku Base = Frost = Piccolo
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May 30, 2016 20:53
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Frost could beat Piccolo, though. He dodged around and charged his special attack because he couldn't take him head on. Though you could argue tactics > power in this case, despite the cheating.
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May 30, 2016 20:58
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Manatee Cannon posted:cell no sold krillin when he got his perfect form without even knowing he was there. This is the bad kind of filler, anytime Krillin uses Destructo Disk in the manga it works
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May 30, 2016 20:58
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Jedah posted:If you were right and that was the case, why wouldn't they both be like Gohan, who can barely muster up anything beyond his basic SSJ form? Because they are still doing stuff instead of dedicating thier entire life to study (like Gohan) or training (like Goku)? Jedah posted:Also, Beerus showing up and beating everybody senseless is a different story altogether. There's no comparison, even if Vegeta has been training under him. Beerus is a God, so there are almost no rules or boundaries for what his character can do. Are you guys seriously comparing Vegeta to Beerus? That seems a bit outrageous. Except Goku and Vegeta are rapidly approaching the point they can threaten Gods and both have achieved a form of godhood themselves. Jedah posted:Also, why was base-level Cabba able to make Vegeta fight seriously, but suddenly, SSJ3 Gotenks is a total pushover? No matter how you rationalize it with ideas like "ki barriers," that just doesn't make sense. Cabba was excited just to achieve the first level of SSJ. SSJ3 Gotenks should be many, many times stronger than Cabba, even if he's some kind of genius fighter. Because Cabba is actually really loving strong? He's strong enough that without Super Saiyan he is one of the strongest fighters in his entire universe. Just because he didn't know SSJ doesn't mean he's weaker than pre-SSJ Goku. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:04 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 21:02
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I want to see a villain die to the solar flare in Super filler, cementing it once and for all as the ultimate attack in all ways
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May 30, 2016 21:02
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ImpAtom posted:Because they are still doing stuff instead of dedicating thier entire life to study (like Gohan) or training (like Goku)? Kids are also full of energy so I don't think they have to train to keep up with their strength at the moment.
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May 30, 2016 21:03
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Agoat posted:Frost could beat Piccolo, though. He dodged around and charged his special attack because he couldn't take him head on. They are equal in the sense that it was actually a fight. Frost couldn't just chump him like Perfect Cell Vs Krillian.
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May 30, 2016 21:07
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Jedah posted:If you were right and that was the case, why wouldn't they both be like Gohan, who can barely muster up anything beyond his basic SSJ form? Instead, Goten and Trunks easily went SSJ3, which used to put their power level in a league of monsters like Super Buu. SSJ3 was a form that Vegeta never obtained in DBZ, because it was so difficult to achieve. It should have some kind of significance. Because Gohan barely being able to go SSJ was something largely done for comedic to show that Gohan doesn't even lift bro. Frankly it seems to me you're vastly overestimating the value of SSJ3. SSJ3 was a joke transformation in its own saga, it was a transformation that wasted a lot of time, a lot of power and ultimately accomplished nothing. Goku failed to beat either form of Buu when he tried throwing out SSJ3 (and yes h e claimed he could, but he also thought he could beat Kid Buu with it and he was wrong there too) and while Gotenks beat up Super Buu for a bit, he still ultimately lost for the same reason. SSJ3 is a trap form that makes you really strong for all of a couple of minutes before it peters out. quote:My original point was this was a lazy filler episode where they didn't bother to think about consistency within the series, which was something DBGT was guilty of. It was probably cheaper to have Vegeta stand there and face-tank attacks rather than animate him going through perfect-timed dodges and parries. Everyone else's rebuttal is that you're wrong. Lazy filler episode sure, but it fits entirely within what we've seen of the series which is that Goku and Vegeta are now at a level completely above anything from Dragonball Z. Lets look at the resurrected freeza for one example. Gohan (who no longer lifts) was still able to effortlessly two hit Tagoma when he finally decided to let loose and go SSJ. Despite this, Freeza was able to utterly obliterate Gohan in his first form literally without leaving his chair. Goku (in his base form), who is more or less at par with Vegeta at this point, then proceeded to fight Freeza in his fourth form (which is something like 240x stronger than his base form if we're still using power levels, which are bullshit) to a standstill. Now keep in mind that this fight took place before two (or three, I can't be bothered to check) years spent doing nothing but training in the hypertonic crying chamber. Vegeta in his base form is so far beyond the rest of the cast its sort of laughable. Three years before this time he was able to go toe to toe with someone who was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. Sure Gotenks could run rings around Gohan, but I see no reason to believe he'd have been able to do gently caress and/or all to Freeza at the level Goku or Vegeta fought him. quote:Also, Beerus showing up and beating everybody senseless is a different story altogether. There's no comparison. He's a God, so there are almost no rules or boundaries for what his character can do. Are you guys seriously comparing Vegeta to Beerus? They've taken steps to point out that if Vegeta and Goku worked together they could probably beat Beerus. That was before years spent training for a tournament. The two of them are rapidly approaching Beerus' level while characters like Gotenks are sadly being left in the dust.
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May 30, 2016 21:10
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Aurora posted:This is the bad kind of filler, anytime Krillin uses Destructo Disk in the manga it works it's not anime filler, it's straight from the manga
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May 30, 2016 21:16
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Manatee Cannon posted:it's not anime filler, it's straight from the manga Nah, the "Krillin throws the disc, it breaks on Cell" is only from the anime. In the manga he just tries to punch Cell.
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May 30, 2016 21:19
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Caros posted:Vegeta in his base form is so far beyond the rest of the cast its sort of laughable. Three years before this time he was able to go toe to toe with someone who was hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. What exactly is the deal with Super Saiyan Gohan anyway? Like, he was fighting Super Buu in his base form after the Elder Kai "unlocked his power". If base form Gohan is stronger than Super Buu, is he now 50X stronger than he was in the Buu saga, seeing as he can transform into a Super Saiyan?
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May 30, 2016 21:19
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