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My favorite episode was when Chavez ordered the army to send tanks to the Colombian border, on live television, because the president of Colombia made him mad. (I think some FARC commander got killed in an air strike.) The defense minister was in the audience looking like he just shat his pants. Basically left-wing Donald Trump.
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Jun 1, 2016 02:11
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El Hefe do you have an exit plan or do you want to get out?
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Jun 1, 2016 02:23
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I have a bunch of family living in the U.S already, father, brothers, uncle, aunt, etc so if poo poo really gets nasty I have somewhere to go, but I don't wanna leave I just want my country to go back to at least where it was before Chavez hosed it up even more. gently caress, I'd be happy if there was food in the supermarkets and medicines in the pharmacies that's not too much to ask right?
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Jun 1, 2016 02:42
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Also, I made an appointment to renew my passport like a month ago and I still haven't received a date but then I heard that you can only get an appointment once your passport expires and then it takes months to get a date and then more months to actually get the passport lol.
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Jun 1, 2016 02:48
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Are you insane? Get the gently caress out while you can.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:12
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That's the thing, I can't because my passport expires next month and you have to have at least 3 months left in your passport to enter most countries. It's not that bad here anyway, we still have air to breathe.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:26
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Can't Venezuelans enter Mercosur countries without passports? I know I don't need it to go to Mercosur + Chile. It's not the US but it's also not Venezuela.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:35
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Yeah but I'm just wanna wait until the civil war begins.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:41
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El Hefe posted:That's the thing, I can't because my passport expires next month and you have to have at least 3 months left in your passport to enter most countries. Can't you fly to where your family is in the US and claim asylum?
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Jun 1, 2016 05:53
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axeil posted:Can't you fly to where your family is in the US and claim asylum? The US immigration system would likely gently caress the poo poo out of you unless there was an actual civil war.
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Jun 1, 2016 06:19
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ComradeCosmobot posted:How do you file a (civil) lawsuit for treason?
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Jun 1, 2016 07:37
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It's gonna be impossible for him to travel to the US with a passport so close to expire, yeah. And now the few remaining airlines are leaving the country as well. Got some friends moving next week and they are getting nervous about, well, everything, but now Iberia dropping off from Venezuela is possibility. Wish everyone could just get the gently caress out, but it's not easy. At least when civil war erupts you'll be able to ask for asylum. Hell maybe if Venezuela is declared a dictatorship from every international authority you can manage it, too. Then again if Maduro is declared a dictator there's very little stopping him from doubling down and dropping the pretense, erasing civil liberties like the right to travel outside the country.
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Jun 1, 2016 07:42
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drat I can't even imagine spending all your savings on a plane ticket and then the airline pulls out of the country. Jesus what a loving nightmare.
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Jun 1, 2016 07:47
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Munin posted:I have to say I do like the firm defense of Batista in this thread whose economic numbers were nearly as phony and embezzlement much more brazen than Maduro's. It's not really a defense of the Batista Dictatorship, It's a reaction to the ridiculous hoops people jump through to defend the Dictatorship that succeeded it. Considering that Castro's Cuba only survived from 1961-1991 by being propped up with Soviet aid, as a USSR sponsored finger in the eye of the US, then endured the "special period" when the soviet money hose was turned off with borderline famine and US food aid, and depended on aid from Chavez after that. Even the Raul Castro led Regime saw the writing on the wall after Chavez died and started making back channel overtures to El Imperio. What is Cuba now? A plantation state that makes most of its hard currency from Tobacco Products, cheap All inclusive resort compounds for fat Europeans and Canadians looking for AYCE buffets, cheap rum cocktails with little paper umbrellas in them, and sex tourism. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 09:12
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Polidoro posted:Can't Venezuelans enter Mercosur countries without passports? I know I don't need it to go to Mercosur + Chile. It's not the US but it's also not Venezuela. In 3 months, nobody will fly to Venezuela. Get the gently caress out now ASAP, before the last flight out of Saigon. Figure everything else out later.
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Jun 1, 2016 09:34
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El Hefe posted:Yeah but I'm just wanna wait until the civil war begins. GET OUT NOW. Any way you can. My great grandparents fled the Hungarian Red Terror of 1919 as quasi-stowaways on an American flagged ship that was there to pick up some commodity that has been lost to my family history. It had a crew that sort of understood what was going on and was sympathetic since my great grandma was pregnant. She lost that Child on the voyage to the USA. Most of their respective family members had already been slaughtered for the crime of owning farmland by the Lenin Boys. My Grandma was born in the Hungarian Enclave of Fairport, Ohio in 1922. She's 93 now. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 09:41
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I'm selfishly hoping some of the Venezuelagoons stay so they can continue posting fascinating first-hand accounts as the country plunges into civil war or some other catastrophe. Just kidding. If anyone makes it to Texas I'll buy you food and beers.
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Jun 1, 2016 09:56
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If any of you Venezuelagoons Make it to Northeast Ohio, I'll buy you dinner and cocktails and find you a couch to crash on with me or my friends.
MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 10:32
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Wikkheiser posted:I'm selfishly hoping some of the Venezuelagoons stay so they can continue posting fascinating first-hand accounts as the country plunges into civil war or some other catastrophe. Don't worry, we'll always have friends and family suffering for our entertainment. Did I mention that I managed to find a service that let me send a box full of food and medicine to my mother? The dude told me that they have a barcode system so only the people sending it and his contact receiving it knows where the package is going, in order to avoid someone looking at the destiny of an international shipment and getting any ideas to kidnap the person and ask for ransom in $. Seems safe enough. If any of you goons in Caracas needs something urgently I can try and hook you up when we do the next delivery. Paracetamol or stuff like that maybe?
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Jun 1, 2016 10:54
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You're all probably going to end up in Miami with the rest of your compatriots, so I'll see you then. We'll go to El Arepazo.
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Jun 1, 2016 13:16
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Can't wait for the pronunciamento
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Jun 1, 2016 13:48
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It'll be interesting to see if they actually do get suspended from the OAS. Also wouldn't more than Maduro need to go? Usually when things are this bad the blame can't be put on one jackass, the entire government needs to be ousted.
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Jun 1, 2016 13:50
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that would sacrifice what little stability there is, at a time when government cohesion is most precious so that order can be maintained throughout the currency devaluation
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Jun 1, 2016 14:31
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The key to a functional democracy instead of a nonfunctional civil-war-timebomb is allowing representation and participation of all major parties. If you entirely disenfranchised the Chavistas you'd give them ammunition for propaganda in the short term, piss off a bunch of their supporters, and start along the short road to them finding other ways to exert influence on the government (see: the guns they have a monopoly on). If you just force them to actually play by the rules you could just nail some key corrupt dipshits and them institute reforms to unfuck things. Successful reform would destroy a lot of their remaining support and maybe even lead to some reform in the party (or not). Then you can gradually go after the other, less influential dipshits. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 14:45
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Isn't a civil war extraordinarily unlikely? Mubarak was ejected from Egypt with very little casualties/military resistance, and I think he had far closer ties to the military. Once the protests/people who dislike the leader grow large enough in number, Maduro's ouster becomes self-fulfilling. It can go from "firmly in power" to "deposed, arrested, on trial" really quickly. This isn't some sub-Saharan dictatorship.
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Jun 1, 2016 15:05
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Yeah there isn't going to be a civil war, absolutely no one likes Maduro, not even the PSUV, it'd be easier for them to simply replace him which is why they are trying to stall the referendum until next year so they can get rid of Maduro but still remain in power.
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Jun 1, 2016 15:09
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Civil war is a lot more likely in countries with bigger ethnic or religious divides, so I think the risk of sparking a civil war by bringing the criminals in the current government to justice is overstated. The bigger concern is preventing the new government from also becoming dictatorial.
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Jun 1, 2016 15:10
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Warbadger posted:The key to a functional democracy instead of a nonfunctional civil-war-timebomb is allowing representation and participation of all major parties. If you entirely disenfranchised the Chavistas you'd give them ammunition for propaganda in the short term, piss off a bunch of their supporters, and start along the short road to them finding other ways to exert influence on the government (see: the guns they have a monopoly on). Part of the problem is that this situation is venturing into uncharted territory which how incompetent/kleptocratic/cultish the government actually is. If it keeps going it really will be the "North Korea of Latin America" at which point there isn't much you can do but sit there with a new pariah state.
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Jun 1, 2016 15:17
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MysteriousStranger posted:It'll be interesting to see if they actually do get suspended from the OAS. There are all kinds of rumours going around about the internal power struggles going on at the PSUV right now. I'm inclined to believe them, since if you believe that there's corruption in the party it's not a stretch to imagine that those same corrupt individuals are vying for more power. At this point it looks like the PSUV is trying to delay the recall referendum until at least January 11, 2017 so that when Maduro loses, VP Aristobulo Isturiz would become president. Maduro must be facing a lot of pressure to stay afloat until then to ensure the survival of the PSUV. If Maduro loses the referendum this year then it's very likely that an opposition candidate would win the presidential election, which would likely be a mortal wound for the PSUV.
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Jun 1, 2016 15:40
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MullardEL34 posted:What is Cuba now? A plantation state that makes most of its hard currency from Tobacco Products, cheap All inclusive resort compounds for fat Europeans and Canadians looking for AYCE buffets, cheap rum cocktails with little paper umbrellas in them, and sex tourism. What was it in the 1950s? This, but with Americans and mafia dudes.
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Jun 1, 2016 15:50
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MysteriousStranger posted:Part of the problem is that this situation is venturing into uncharted territory which how incompetent/kleptocratic/cultish the government actually is. If it keeps going it really will be the "North Korea of Latin America" at which point there isn't much you can do but sit there with a new pariah state. Hard to see it ever getting to that point. The biggest reason being that the Venezuelan government is too poor, and by extension way too weak. North Korea and Cuba were propped up by the Soviets, Chinese, etc. and over the many decades the power structure became entrenched by depriving their citizens of basic rights, including free press, free speech, free travel, etc. Plus where were they going to go? Cuba is an island, North Korea is on a peninsula. Somewhere around half of Venezuelans have access to the internet, and they're surrounded by stable (relative to Venezuela!) democracies. Just don't see how it could ever devolve into that.
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Jun 1, 2016 16:48
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Weren't there rumors PSUV might try to oust and replace Maduro from the inside? How would that be possible? I think I remember talk of it in an article posted earlier. or was that just referring to the delaying things until he's ousted so he's replaced by the VP Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 17:36
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feedmegin posted:What was it in the 1950s? This, but with Americans and mafia dudes. Yes but there was a small middle class kept around to facilitate the Americans making shitloads of money from totally-not-slavery, so that makes it ok!
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Jun 1, 2016 17:40
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Weren't there rumors PSUV might try to oust and replace Maduro from the inside? How would that be possible? I think I remember talk of it in an article posted earlier. I'm not sure what article you're referencing, but replacing Maduro wouldn't be easy. If Maduro were to resign before January 10, 2017, there would be a presidential election that the PSUV would most likely lose. If the PSUV wants to replace Maduro, he must stay in power until at least January 11, 2017. If he resigns then, VP Aristobulo Isturiz becomes president and Venezuela remains under PSUV control until 2019 (when the next elections take place). This is outlined in Article 233 of the Constitution, for those interested. I think Maduro's under pressure from two camps: one that wants him to stay at the top because his resignation would be an unprecedented recognition that the PSUV has failed and the people of Venezuela have rejected it. The party might be destroyed by that. The whole thing would come crashing down and it'd be every man for himself. The other camp wants Maduro out because they think he's sinking the ship. I'm not sure how they'd make the switch in leadership without the PSUV taking a huge hit, however. In any case, there must be people in the PSUV who believe that as huge a hit as having Maduro resign would be, it's much more preferable than leaving him in office so that he can finish the job and destroy the party. The PSUV is in an extremely difficult situation. I think the damage is already done and the party's going to die.
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Jun 1, 2016 17:45
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Arkane posted:Hard to see it ever getting to that point. The biggest reason being that the Venezuelan government is too poor, and by extension way too weak. Plenty of countries that are as screwed up as North Korea when it comes to quality of life and being third world hell holes have the internet. I worked for USAID and a bunch of NGO's in the past and having the internet and cell phones doesn't stop you from turning into a permanent hell hole with no way out of it. It's vastly easier to break a nation than it is to build one. And having neighbors with human rights that aren't hell holes isn't something that will save you from that fate when you fall apart. And I'm not sure that "moar monies" will fix it. As catastrophic corruption and poor money management is part of the reason this situation is where it is. At times the only solution is to rip things out root and branch and accept a lot of immediate pain for the chance of a way out. It's a hellish situation, and I just don't see any good answers.
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Jun 1, 2016 17:47
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Removing Maduro is more of a question than an answer, though it is necessary; as long as oil prices are low, the Venezuelan people will continue to suffer. Obviously there needs to be a transition away from that but it's just a huge question mark hanging over the next few years. He might be making disastrous decisions because of his true belief in Chavismo but it's really not clear what the right way forward is at this point, even if the entirety of the PSUV just vanished. One can only imagine it's going to take a great deal of help and support from neighboring countries, but who knows how that would work. edit: not a response to the above post, just coincidence
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Jun 1, 2016 17:48
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looks like my curiosity/confusion was spurred by this line from the NYTimesquote:But the president looks increasingly encircled.
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Jun 1, 2016 17:58
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Well, the members of his inner circle are some of the primary beneficiaries of the crooked and corrupt system, so if they turn on him it's out of complete desperation and definitely would not be the first step towards a more sane government.
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Jun 1, 2016 18:04
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The suspension is a done deal, Almagro wouldn't be summoning an emergency session if the votes weren't there, after all nothing in politics is left to chance.
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Jun 1, 2016 18:16
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Here's a live stream to the OAS meeting on Venezuela happening right now. It's in Spanish, but you might be able to find an English stream if you click around on the site. Right now, Venezuela's trying to get the meeting postponed and instead have another meeting on another issue. The Council is discussing whether or not to allow that right now. EDIT: It looks like Mexico is trying to get the meeting on as scheduled, and so far has the support of Costa Rica, Uruguay, Argentina, Guatemala, Peru (a lot of ambassadors are referring to "15 countries", which I think all support the motion to hold the meeting as scheduled). Venezuela's got Nicaragua and Bolivia on its side so far. EDIT 2: Dominica's coming out fighting for Venezuela. I think we'll see lots of Caribbean islands in favour of Venezuela, since they benefit so much from Petrocaribe. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 18:29
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