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gradenko_2000 posted:What books can I mine for ideas for psionic monsters and their powers? I'm thinking of something like an installation guarded by Shardminds, Githyanki, Githzerai, that sort of thing. There are lots of psychic monsters in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog.
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Jun 2, 2016 12:34
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In a few months my party's gonna hit level 11, and I like to tie that in with a plot event to make it feel special. I decided I'm gonna have them face mirror images of themselves that are built as monsters and have their paragon paths' level 11 abilities. Say the warlock takes Feytouched - +4 attack bonus when spending an action point, deal damage to adjacent enemies when teleporting, and an encounter power. The mirror image creature would probably look something like: Regular monster stat block (defenses are high where the PC's are high, and low where they're low) Standard At-Will: MBA (just as a formality) Standard At-Will: RBA: Eldritch Blast Standard Encounter: Will of the Feywild Move At-Will: Slashing Wake (teleport, damaging adjacent enemies) Minor Encounter: gain a +4 attack bonus Should make a decent challenge, and I'm looking forward to their paragon choices.
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Jun 2, 2016 13:26
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I like this idea; of my players the lowest is 8 and the highest is 10 right now and I was thinking of some kind of test to gain the paragon class. All my players worship the Raven Queen so I was thinking of a spiritual quest where anything can happen. I was thinking of a skill challenge of 8 success to 5 failures of revolving skills and difficulty. Having the PC fight an alternate version of themselves is interesting and reminds me of a great bit from Final Fantasy 2 (US). I might even take it a step further and after the skill challenge give them the paragon class but have them fight a version of themselves that went down a different path. Oh you picked Feytouched? I will attack you as a Doomsayer.
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Jun 2, 2016 16:36
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No Luck Needed posted:lowest is 8 and the highest is 10 right now I mean, it can work. But it's definitely not ideal. There's a lot of important math tied up in level. And you're really limiting the level range of monsters that are the right challenge for the whole party.
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Jun 2, 2016 16:46
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If it works for your group it's fine but different levels between PCs probably shouldn't happen in general and particularly not if you're doing a big test for the Paragon Path because you'll either have to keep the highest level players from taking the test until the lower ones have caught up, or tell the lowest level ones "you passed the test but you have to wait two levels for it to kick in." May I suggest killing two birds with one stone and bumping them all to level 11 upon passing the test? It really helps game balance in 4E if everyone's on the same level. Raven Queen... how about this: the test is to kill yourself, then best the guardians that keep dead souls from escaping the afterlife in a fair fight. The guardians are the souls of warriors of old, wielding strange power. If you can beat them, the Raven Queen will let you take their power back into life. Optionally, you're also the guardians now, so occasionally you'll be called upon to stop an uprising of souls. Actually dang that is pretty sweet if I say so myself, I might use that now. One of my PCs is already the actual angel of death, I could tie it in easy.
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Jun 2, 2016 16:54
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Yep, don't have differences in player level. The group levels, not the individuals, if people miss sessions, catch them up. 4e doesn't work well when characters are of disparate levels, especially not when they cross tier boundaries.
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Jun 2, 2016 17:40
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Using PC rules for enemies isn't ideal either. The mechanics for PCs can be pretty frustrating to fight against. It's also why PVP is not a good idea. You could take an existing monster and modify/reflavor it to be the 'shadow version' of another player though.
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Jun 2, 2016 18:22
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Can't be said enough. Not only that, but it's also next to impossible to run 4-5 fully built PCs as a DM. Take another look at the rudimentary Feytouched statblock I posted, for example: as a PC feature Slashing Wake is just damage that triggers when you teleport. Now, my group's Warlock only teleports as a result of her curse mechanics, but I certainly don't want to deal with curse mechanics on a monster. So in the monster version it becomes its own teleport source. (And I'm not sure if that should maybe be a recharge power, but I'll worry about that only if the player actually picks Feytouched, so far it's just an example). Or all the action point mechanics: don't wanna go around giving monsters action points so a Minor Action Encounter power it is.
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Jun 2, 2016 18:31
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Dick Burglar posted:You could take an existing monster and modify/reflavor it to be the 'shadow version' of another player though. It's generally going to be a lot simpler to just build them from scratch using the MM3 formula - you can still reuse PC powers as monster powers with very little work, so you can give them one of the PCs' at-wills, an Encounter as a recharge and a Daily that triggers when Bloodied, for example.
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Jun 2, 2016 18:48
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one of the players just doesn't show up as much, it is not much of a problem really. My players never really fight monsters of the same level. At level 10 they are mainly fighting monsters level 5 to 8. The next time we play, the level 8 will probably go up to 9, the two PCs at 9 might go to 10, and the level 10 should probably still be level 10. Do you only have PCs fight NPCs of equal level? The level 5 elite Orgillian I found in the Nentir Vale monster guide is pretty wrecky and the last time we played (the level 10 couldn't make it) and the one PC at 8 and the 2 PCs at 9 had trouble with fighting 3 level 5 elites. I get what is being said about keeping the PCs the same level so they can all equal contribute. But fiddling with xp takes away from the xp's reward aspect. If I miss a TV show or basketball game, someone can tell me who died on game of thrones or how many points Steph Curry scored. But seeing it, experiencing it is quite different. If one player misses a game because of sickness or other personal reasons, maybe run a "makeup" adventure for them, where they get more xp then the adventure should reward. But I do not like the idea of just handing out xp or levels to keep the game balanced. I understand that 4e requires the players to have magical items but I don't just hand them out. Defeating an orc that was whopping on you with a magical axe and gaining that axe to whop on other orcs is part of the process. If you don't show up to get whopped by those orcs, why would I reward you the same? Raven Queen -- maybe I could do the Star Trek thing make them sacrifice themselves for the greater good to be worthy of the Raven Queen's blessing. My Lovely Horse posted:Can't be said enough. Not only that, but it's also next to impossible to run 4-5 fully built PCs as a DM. tell me you know how to reskin? I wanted tigers because tigers are awesome. I only have the monster vault. I reskin the bear as a tiger and claimed that if I pin you with both of my claw attacks I will rake you, instead of claw/claw then bear hug. I would probably just pick powers from the Players Handbook. Then ask the PC, oh whats your CON modifier? Oh ok, Hellish Rebuke you. I would never take the time to make up 4-5 PCs to use as NPCs if they were only for one fight. Reskin stuff, it is awesome No Luck Needed fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 19:01
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Yes, build monsters similar in theme/flavor to the PCs, likely taking a few key powers to use as special effects. The DM should not use PC rules or PC math.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:02
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lol wtf your level 10 players are losing to level 5 monsters? At-level monsters should be reasonably easy for remotely well-built PCs. How many PCs do you have, and roughly what classes/builds are they? No Luck Needed posted:If you don't show up to get whopped by those orcs, why would I reward you the same? Seriously, if you're not using Inherent Bonuses and you're not giving out at least +x generic magic $stuff to your PCs in 4e, you are a Bad DM. Sorry to break it to you.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:16
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Please don't actively punish players who have to miss a session for whatever reason. Putting them behind isn't a reward for other players. It's a punishment for them specifically. It also breaks 4e's sort of tight math.
djw175 fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 19:22
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All punishing people for skipping does is make them not want to come again. Get your PCs all to the same level, get them either inherent bonuses or the relevant magic gear, keep them all at the same level. Your game WILL improve dramatically.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:25
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thespaceinvader posted:lol wtf your level 10 players are losing to level 5 monsters? At-level monsters should be reasonably easy for remotely well-built PCs. Like I'd say maybe they were rolling like crap, but the ogrillon is a brute. It should be piss easy for at level people to hit it and murder it, not to mention people five levels higher. Edit: It's AC 17. A slightly power gamed level 1 PC can hit that on a 10. Edit 2: Pick rogue. 20 in dex. Grab the thing that gives you +1 to attack with daggers. Grab light blade expertise. If you want to hit it on a 9, you Could pick up the unseelie agent theme to get a magic item at level 1. With CA it's on a 7. Go human and take Nimble Blade for your other feat to bring it to 6 with CA. djw175 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 19:27
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Three level 5 elites does work out to 1200 XP which is an appropriate amount for three level 9 PCs... Usually, though, you stay within a certain range of the party's level. Exactly what range depends on how optimized your guys are. -2/+2 as a general ballpark although you can easily go higher. Lower makes for boring enemies, use minions for that. At level 5 the party fights four Axe Orcs (level 5 monsters), at level 10 they wide the floor with 16 Axe Orcs (redone as level 10 minions).
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Jun 2, 2016 19:28
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Using inherent bonuses actually works in your favor because afterwards you can give whatever you want, up to and including gently caress-all for loot and the game won't break.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:28
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My Lovely Horse posted:Usually, though, you stay within a certain range of the party's level. Exactly what range depends on how optimized your guys are. -2/+2 as a general ballpark although you can easily go higher. If you go much farther out than that, one side or the other is going to have a real hard time hitting, and all the tension will go out of the fight. Also, I'm of the mindset that playing is it's own reward. Sure, it's fun to get new toys, but that's all part of play. If you're not there then it means you already didn't get a chance to play. Making them fall behind is a double whammy. No need to make things more complicated for yourself and add another layer of bookkeeping (ugh, tracking XP). ImpactVector fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 19:48
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djw175 posted:Like I'd say maybe they were rolling like crap, but the ogrillon is a brute. It should be piss easy for at level people to hit it and murder it, not to mention people five levels higher. You can tweak out rogues at low levels to take out stupid-high-level monsters very quickly. Slayers too.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:53
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I got four PCs, all have at least +2 weapons now, with two of them having +3 weapons. Armor ranges from +1 to +3. Each of them have at least one other magic item that does something. The ranger has Swiftpad Boots and loves jumping over ranks of enemies. But the ranger didn't just go the magic shoe shop and pick out a nice pair. The goblin he killed for them jumped around and got a flanking bonus at some point in the battle. Now I did have the situation arise where 3 PCs got some loot and just gave the 4th PC an item because it would work better for that PC even thou that PC didn't make it to that session. I am not playing a low magic 4e game. What I am trying to do is reward players for the time, ideas, and interactions. If the player has a reason to miss, then I would be fine with pepper in more XP or more loot. But if that player misses because they were doing well in a ranked League of Legends game or would rather keep playing MTG then to break off for 3 hours of D&D then I do not need to reward those players. They are reward themselves in other avenues. If the ranger just shows up more, comes up with great ideas, and has fun roleplaying then their reward should be higher levels, more loot, and a great sense of accomplishment. If you have to carrot and stick people into playing D&D 4e, then don't play it. the elite Orgillians with their 17 AC, 156 HP, with two attacks at +10 vs AC that deal 2d10+5. I guess in your games, your PCs all roll critical hits, make the best use of their terrain, and do not miss on daily powers. The level 8 paladin with 18 STR has something crazy like +12 vs AC. So 25% of the time he misses that Orgillian. The level 8 paladin has something like 24 AC (maybe higher, I don't have his character sheet with me), so the Orgillian would miss the paladin 70% of the time. But the orgillian has twice the number of attacks as the paladin. This is what made a 3 on 3 fight tuff for the PCs. I am only using the PHB #1 and the extra races of Drow and Half-Orc. The only inherent bonus I give is a +1 to hit for each tier. I suppose I could add in an inherent bonus for damage too but I figured 1 extra damage isn't as important as the +5% to +15% to hit as the +1 per tier could be. I just feel that while the PCs of 4e are strong, the monsters of 4e are the strongest of any edition. edt. My players are not min/maxers, they do not own every book or are reading ever dragon article for broken builds. Going back to around 2006 to like 2015 I only plaed AD&D 2nd edition and that is what these players played too. I read a review of 5e saying that it is an improved 3e and that 4e had its unique charm in combat. I never want to have to DM 3e again, so I picked up a bunch of 4e cheap on Amazon and trade MTG cards for the rest. I did own the Menzoberranzan 4e book because when I saw it, I picked it up and started a AD&D Drow themed game. My players are looking for fun and not as much as which class has the most power to multi-class into, which paragon class has the best options. In fact, most of them are looking at paragon paths are a roleplaying experience and not a way to get more power. The paladin is thinking about Astral Weapon and Champion of Order. His first question to me as not about how these powers worked but weather the Raven Queen had a standing order for him to join. No Luck Needed fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 20:01
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No Luck Needed posted:I am not playing a low magic 4e game. What I am trying to do is reward players for the time, ideas, and interactions. If the player has a reason to miss, then I would be fine with pepper in more XP or more loot. But if that player misses because they were doing well in a ranked League of Legends game or would rather keep playing MTG then to break off for 3 hours of D&D then I do not need to reward those players. They are reward themselves in other avenues. If the ranger just shows up more, comes up with great ideas, and has fun roleplaying then their reward should be higher levels, more loot, and a great sense of accomplishment. If you have to carrot and stick people into playing D&D 4e, then don't play it.  I... That... What?
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Jun 2, 2016 20:07
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Use Inherent Bonuses properly. Use stuff other than PHB1. These will both help. PHB1 Paladins in particular are pretty weak, because Divine Sanction is such a huge part of the Paladin's arsenal. And yes, PCs in my games usually do make good use of terrain, routinely get flanking, and get buffs from their Leaders. But it's also worth noting that 4e also breaks down a bit when you get below 4 PCs in a fight, because the game is balanced around at least that many PCs. For that reason it's a tougher game to gently caress with on the fly, because it makes certain assumptions about the numbers and makeup of the PCs and their builds and items, and if those assumptions aren't met, yes, it will be harder. Play is its own reward. But if you're having trouble with attendance, TALK TO THE PROBLEM PLAYER. Don't punish them in-game, passive-aggressive bullshit like that never solves these problems. Talk to them. Tell them you're finding it difficult to run the game because they're playing LoL on game nights and skipping without much warning, and could they make a decision whether they're going to play or not please. Trying to solve out of game problems with in-game solutions DOES. NOT. WORK. This is like, the most common piece of advice I give to DMs and players, and it should be written in giant neon letters on the front of every game book and the wall of every game club. If you're running with less optimised players and getting in fights with 3 PCs, you might well find that lower-levelled monsters are more of a challenge. The average elite takes around 6 hits to take down IIRC, and 3 PCs take 2 rounds to do that and get hit by it twice, whereas four or five can do it a lot quicker. Also, are they actually using their resources? I've often seen people struggle with what should be easy combats because they save their dailies and APs for bigger fights. Again, 4e is balanced around the idea that on average, one or two PCs will be APing and dailying in each combat, once you get your third daily. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 2, 2016 |
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Jun 2, 2016 20:11
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No Luck Needed posted:The level 8 paladin with 18 STR has something crazy like +12 vs AC. Something is wrong in your game if this is "crazy". This is baseline.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:13
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Yup. 4 from level plus 4 from strength plus 3 from weapon plus 2 from magic would be 13 at level 8. In fact, 12 is one point lower than baseline for a +3 weapon, or at baseline for a +2 weapon. E: and NONE of the above changes the fact that wherever possible the PCs should all be the same level, and never should you have PCs who are of different tiers at the same table.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:15
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thespaceinvader posted:Yup. I'm trying to think why a paladin, especially a PHB1 only paladin would be using a +2 weapon. Longsword and shield or Fullblade all day everyday.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:19
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djw175 posted:I'm trying to think why a paladin, especially a PHB1 only paladin would be using a +2 weapon. Longsword and shield or Fullblade all day everyday. Could be doing some weird stuff with flailcheese or hammers or whatever.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:21
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Not with just PH1.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:22
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thespaceinvader posted:Not with just PH1. fair enough, than I have no idea
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Jun 2, 2016 20:23
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No Luck Needed posted:If you have to carrot and stick people into playing D&D 4e, then don't play it. I can agree with this sentence. If you feel you have to carrot and stick your players into playing any game, you probably shouldn't be running one. Good advice.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:24
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No Luck Needed posted:The only inherent bonus I give is a +1 to hit for each tier. I suppose I could add in an inherent bonus for damage too but I figured 1 extra damage isn't as important as the +5% to +15% to hit as the +1 per tier could be. I just feel that while the PCs of 4e are strong, the monsters of 4e are the strongest of any edition. If you're using the character builder than all you need to do is have the players check one little box to have all your worries about magic items go away. Plus then players won't feel the need to get rid of their trusty old super sweet flaming sword for a plain old magic one just because it has a better +to hit. I mean, obviously you can run your game however you find works best for you. The people in this thread just want to help based on our experiences running and playing the game over many years.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:26
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djw175 posted:I'm trying to think why a paladin, especially a PHB1 only paladin would be using a +2 weapon. Longsword and shield or Fullblade all day everyday. What else are they going to use? A non-magical weapon? Why wouldn't they use a +2 one?
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Jun 2, 2016 20:27
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Arivia posted:What else are they going to use? A non-magical weapon? Why wouldn't they use a +2 one? +2 vs +3 Proficiency, not magic.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:28
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Arivia posted:What else are they going to use? A non-magical weapon? Why wouldn't they use a +2 one? No a +2 prof weapon
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Jun 2, 2016 20:28
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I do not have the paladin's character sheet with but we can break it down. +3 flaming greatsword (he wanted a weapon with +3 weapon proff I remember that)(+6 total), 18 STR (+4), inherent bonus (+1), 1/2 level (+4). 6+4+1+4 =15, ok so maybe the Paladin did have +15 vs AC but those 3 Ogrillians were challenge either way. Probably because we never have 5 PCs and the PCs didn't pick classes/race/weapons thinking of synergy or what could "break the game." The PC who picked Dwarf Cleric, then spent feats on scale armor and great axe didn't spend those feats or pick that race/class for some awesome synergy bonus, he picked those because he wanted to be a healer but still fight and thought dwarf would be the best. I guess I am not sure what I am really trying to defend. Not ever PC is going to min/max. Not ever DM is going to encourage that style of play. I like My Lovely Horse idea of testing the PCs with alternate versions of themsleves Sorry my D&D play style is not the same as everyone else
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Jun 2, 2016 20:34
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Trust me. Power gaming isn't all I do. I regularly play wacky or just straight up bad stuff. Defender sorcerer, vampire, and assassin are all things I've played, some multiple times and they're all pretty bad. Half the time power gaming is just a fun exercise to see if I can do it.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:44
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No Luck Needed posted:I do not have the paladin's character sheet with but we can break it down. +3 flaming greatsword (he wanted a weapon with +3 weapon proff I remember that)(+6 total), 18 STR (+4), inherent bonus (+1), 1/2 level (+4). 6+4+1+4 =15, ok so maybe the Paladin did have +15 vs AC but those 3 Ogrillians were challenge either way. Probably because we never have 5 PCs and the PCs didn't pick classes/race/weapons thinking of synergy or what could "break the game." The PC who picked Dwarf Cleric, then spent feats on scale armor and great axe didn't spend those feats or pick that race/class for some awesome synergy bonus, he picked those because he wanted to be a healer but still fight and thought dwarf would be the best. He should have been hitting those Ogrillons on any number other than a 1 in the vast majority of cases. You're exaggerating your issues whilst ignoring advice.
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Jun 2, 2016 20:48
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Here are some of my house rules I have been using for 4e I roll once for initiative, maybe have the "boss" roll separately. The PCs just roll once and we use that for all initiatives after that. I have only used 3 dragons so far; the level 1 and level 3 white and the level 5 green from the monster vault. What I do is when it is the dragons turn, I just give them the fly-by-attack as a free action and then give the dragon it's regular turn. This has made the solo dragons a nice little challenge. I let the PCs go up to their surge value in temporary hit points. This really only effects the infernal pack warlock, whom at level 9 gets like 12 temporary HP for each cursed foe that is slain. The warlocks healing surge is like 18, so allowing that little extra HP hasn't been a big boon but the PC likes to be a life drinker. I let the paladin use his CHA mod instead of WIS to determine the number of lay hands per day. This gives the paladin an extra 2 lay on hands, again not a huge boon but having the extra healing is good for the PCs and for me to toss more monsters at them. I let the ranger add STR mod to attacks on Twin Strike because I like rangers too much I guess. I have also done a few group skill checks. I have the PCs start off with an insight check to sense danger. The cleric has the best insight so he rolls here. Then a perception check to find a trap, usually the ranger. Then the warlock uses their Thievery to overcome the trap. The PCs need to get 1 insight success, 1 perception success, then maybe a thievery success or two, and end it with the paladin having to do a STR check to open the door, lift the lid of the chest, help disable the trap mechanism. This way when there is a locked door or a trap, they can all be part of overcoming the obstacle.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:20
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No Luck Needed posted:Here are some of my house rules I have been using for 4e This actively punishes players who seek out High Initiative builds...not the worst thing in the world but probably a net drag on your players No Luck Needed posted:I let the PCs go up to their surge value in temporary hit points. This really only effects the infernal pack warlock, whom at level 9 gets like 12 temporary HP for each cursed foe that is slain. The warlocks healing surge is like 18, so allowing that little extra HP hasn't been a big boon but the PC likes to be a life drinker. These are harmless alterations, unnecessary, but if your player's like them, go nuts. No Luck Needed posted:I let the ranger add STR mod to attacks on Twin Strike because I like rangers too much I guess. No Luck Needed posted:I have also done a few group skill checks. I have the PCs start off with an insight check to sense danger. The cleric has the best insight so he rolls here. Then a perception check to find a trap, usually the ranger. Then the warlock uses their Thievery to overcome the trap. The PCs need to get 1 insight success, 1 perception success, then maybe a thievery success or two, and end it with the paladin having to d a STR check to open the door, lift the lid of the chest, help disable the trap mechanism. This way when there is a locked door or a trap, they can all be part of overcoming the obstacle. This is a decent way to do skills.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:23
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Everything I learn makes the ogrillon situation weirder and weirder
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Jun 2, 2016 21:40
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| # ? May 15, 2024 07:49 |
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Temp HP never stacks, so if that's supposed to be an upper limit on it that's not how it works. Though now that I think about it maybe that was errata. Also yeah, hopefully your ranger never discovers frost cheese or any other ways to stack lots of +damage mods.
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Jun 2, 2016 21:42
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