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Squibbles posted:Check out that study I linked a few posts up. Apparently a biscuit held joint is about 80% the strength of a mortice and tenon. And exponentially closer the deeper/bigger the biscuit is. I did read it. It concluded that biscuits were weaker than tennons and it's recommendations to increase strength was to use larger biscuits (make them more tennon like). It also used extremely small sample sizes, etc etc. It calls out that the longer the tenon the stronger the joint is, which is definitely a limiting issue as biscuit joints are rather shallow and cut with a rotating blade.
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Jun 2, 2016 18:40
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On that note, anyone tried one of these? https://www.festoolproducts.com/Fes...7sssRoCSx3w_wcB Only $970 U.S. I bought a Porter-Cable biscuiter when they first came out, and the fence was hot garbage. There was a 3rd party company who made an add-on fence that was nice, which I ended up getting.
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Jun 2, 2016 18:57
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Mr. Mambold posted:On that note, anyone tried one of these? https://www.festoolproducts.com/Fes...7sssRoCSx3w_wcB Domino's are a legitimate loose tennon, the mortises are sufficiently deep and the domino is hardwood not compressed sawdust.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:06
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GEMorris posted:Domino's are a legitimate loose tennon, the mortises are sufficiently deep and the domino is hardwood not compressed sawdust. I couldn't justify the cost of a domino, but all the several thousand biscuits I used were compressed birch(pretty sure it was birch) wood, not sawdust.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:09
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His Divine Shadow posted:Eh, a deal like this seems to come around multiple times a year and I got a small 8" combo machine so I can afford to wait. I'd be more willing to buy a larger planer if I found one. Showed it to the guy who built the saw I posted pictures of, said it was a Naula, made in Jakobstad, Finland in the 40s, they had problems with QC that time and some examples where fine while others should have been melted back down. So it would be a risk to buy that one.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:56
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I made a doll-sized table from some scraps, to check how some woods I got at a close-ish sawmill go together. Turns out I do like how it looks, and now I kind of want to try making a proper coffee table from this. I just feel like I have no good understanding of how to construct it so the legs won't rack. I'm considering making a triangular-ish shape with just three legs, which at least should avoid the table rocking if the legs aren't perfectly identical. Any suggestions to where I can learn a bit about table leg constructions? (Apart from taking a full apprenticeship.)
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Jun 2, 2016 21:46
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Robert Wearing's The Essential Woodworker does a really solid introduction to table construction, and covers a ton of basics in a very pedagogical manner. I've used it as a reference whenever I'm making tables. An electronic copy runs around 9 dollars I think.
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Jun 2, 2016 22:19
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Free Market Mambo posted:Robert Wearing's The Essential Woodworker does a really solid introduction to table construction, and covers a ton of basics in a very pedagogical manner. I've used it as a reference whenever I'm making tables. An electronic copy runs around 9 dollars I think. And it's an amazing book and is currently published by lost art press which is a great company.
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Jun 2, 2016 22:48
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Mr. Mambold posted:On that note, anyone tried one of these? https://www.festoolproducts.com/Fes...7sssRoCSx3w_wcB I got a Domino last year and it's fantastic. I got mine used so the price wasn't nearly that bad.
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Jun 2, 2016 23:32
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I've found that I am sorely missing a band saw. Being of the mind that having a kinda poo poo tool is better than having no tool at all, is a used ridgid band saw okay? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/tls/5616591664.html
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Jun 3, 2016 00:27
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Target Practice posted:I've found that I am sorely missing a band saw. Being of the mind that having a kinda poo poo tool is better than having no tool at all, is a used ridgid band saw okay? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/tls/5616591664.html If you can't get a saw to cut straight consistently it is worse than having no tool at all. Be cautious.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:33
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Stultus Maximus posted:If you can't get a saw to cut straight consistently it is worse than having no tool at all. Be cautious. Well I figure if it's doesn't have that little guide thing I can fab one, but I was thinking about A) Obviously turning it on and making sure it works, and B) watching the blade and seeing if it stays in the middle of the fuckin' hole. I've been seeing poo poo reviews for Ridgid band saws but it seems like so many of them are something like "This didn't cut my 5 inch hardwood log gently caress this thing" and that' just seems ridiculous.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:38
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Target Practice posted:I've found that I am sorely missing a band saw. Being of the mind that having a kinda poo poo tool is better than having no tool at all, is a used ridgid band saw okay? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/tls/5616591664.html Looks like the owner doesn't have clue 1 what he's got. make / manufacturer: Ridge Idk about that brand, but I'd be hella tempted in your shoes. Looks like the throat plate is what he's on about as missing. You can make on yourself from aluminum or plexi. fakedit- ok you beat me on the same thought there.... Target Practice posted:Well I figure if it's doesn't have that little guide thing I can fab one, but I was thinking about A) Obviously turning it on and making sure it works, and B) watching the blade and seeing if it stays in the middle of the fuckin' hole. I've been seeing poo poo reviews for Ridgid band saws but it seems like so many of them are something like "This didn't cut my 5 inch hardwood log gently caress this thing" and that' just seems ridiculous. Keep in mind there's lots of idiots who end up giving poo poo reviews. You got to have the right blade on your 5 inch hardwood log. Also probably none of them come tuned up out of the store. How the hell bad can a manufacturer gently caress up a bandsaw?
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Jun 3, 2016 00:44
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Lot of us have been around long enough to see the fads in woodworking. Dowels were all the rage once upon a time until the furniture built with them in the 50's and 60's started falling apart. Then Norm taught us to use biscuits and everyone had a biscuit joiner. Pocket screws went mainstream and suddenly anyone could build furniture with nothing but a saw and drill. Now it's Dominos and everyone thinks they are the bees knees but they are just fancy dowels. About the time the patents start expiring and the Chinese flood the market with cheap copies, all that furniture will start coming apart and the next new fad will be on the rise. So I'm not going to get excited if someone builds furniture with biscuits, or screws, or dowels, or dominos because most furniture isn't heirloom furniture and it has always been that way.nielsm posted:Any suggestions to where I can learn a bit about table leg constructions? (Apart from taking a full apprenticeship.) Are you wanting to build a peg leg table? If so, google that phrase and it will give you some idea of what's involved. Many of them screw into place or use through tenons.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:45
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If you think a domino is a dowel then you also think a loose tenon is a dowel? Dowels fail due to lack of side grain glue surface, which is something tenon's (lose or not) have in spades. I'm not recommending going out to buy a domino just to do joinery (I'd far sooner recommend learning how to cut a tenon with a hand saw and to cut a mortise with a chisel) but to say the domino is the equivalent of a dowel jig or biscuit jointer is just being willfully disingenuous or contentious.
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Jun 3, 2016 00:55
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I will probably go take a look at it. Also laffo at this fuckin' thing. Ever seen a 3 phase 24" disc sander? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/tls/5616515599.html
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Jun 3, 2016 00:57
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GEMorris posted:disingenuous or contentious. You mean like saying biscuits are made from sawdust? Mark my words about the domino.
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Jun 3, 2016 01:39
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wormil posted:You mean like saying biscuits are made from sawdust? Mark my words about the domino. Biscuits are so compressed the bonds between the fibers are quite compromised. Sure they aren't "sawdust" but they've also lost a good bit of structural integrity. They are not and never have been a substitute for a tenon. Domino's are just wood. The domino cutter is just a machine that makes a mortise. That's a loose tennon with the proper depth to be effective. If you're predicting the inevitable failure of a well known and tested joint that has existed for centuries I think your issue is with glue, not a machine.
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Jun 3, 2016 01:54
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Dowel-chat reminds me of a job I had back in the day building floor to ceiling honduran mahogany faced display cabinets with these big 1/4" beveled glass doors. Like 5' doors, iirc. Soss hinges, and the frames were like 2" on the plan. I didn't have much in the way of a tool collection (had busted out twice in fact) and the only way I could figure to make those frames was a dowel jig and miter the rabeted stiles and rails. Naturally, I was really worried about them holding up. I really wanted to do a cope and stick type joint, but I didn't have the cutters. The shaper knives back then were prohibitively costly. I asked my neighbor Bob Flexner what he thought. Bob said "Hell yeah, go for it. The glass itself will hold the frame together, there'll be no stress on the joints." And I think the architect said the same thing, so I went with it. 2 dowels in each joint. They were right. edit- Bob hated cope and stick joinery btw, fact.
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Jun 3, 2016 02:01
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Cope and stick is just fancy tongue and groove right? What's wrong with it?
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Jun 3, 2016 08:19
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Having recently bought a Domino thanks to having more money than time to do woodworking and a severe aversion to tools that generate a lot of uncontrolled dust (not coincidentally why I was already in the festool ecosystem thanks to their sanders), holy poo poo is that thing easy to use and fast at what it does. They really gently caress you on the extras, though, additional cutters besides the default 5mm are ~40 USD a piece, or ~300 USD for a set of 5 (4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm) and a T-Loc full of ~1000 dominos of various sizes. It's not the messiah unless you're doing a lot of production work, in which case I'm pretty sure the time/labor savings would pay for the thing pretty quickly, but it is certainly a very nice, useful tool that fills a niche. For me, it lets me set up and execute joinery that would take me hours in a fraction of the time (partially because I turn into the slowest worker alive when you put a chisel in my hand, admittedly  ), with a minimum of fuss or mess.If you can afford/justify one, I would definitely recommend it more than basically any other festool item. Definitely also interested to see what people come up with in the way of copycat/variation tools in the future. I'd love it if there were a comparable alternative that doesn't cost a thousand loving dollars, but the closest I know of is a beadlock jig, which still takes a lot more time to set up/use.
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Jun 3, 2016 09:22
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Cakefool posted:Cope and stick is just fancy tongue and groove right? What's wrong with it? For long grain to long grain, nothing's wrong, but that's where you'd use T&G. For butt grain to long grain, you've only got about 3/8" of gluing surface, so it's weak. It's a cool joint for raised panel doors though.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:27
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stabbington posted:Having recently bought a Domino thanks to having more money than time to do woodworking and a severe aversion to tools that generate a lot of uncontrolled dust (not coincidentally why I was already in the festool ecosystem thanks to their sanders), holy poo poo is that thing easy to use and fast at what it does. They really gently caress you on the extras, though, additional cutters besides the default 5mm are ~40 USD a piece, or ~300 USD for a set of 5 (4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm) and a T-Loc full of ~1000 dominos of various sizes. It's not the messiah unless you're doing a lot of production work, in which case I'm pretty sure the time/labor savings would pay for the thing pretty quickly, but it is certainly a very nice, useful tool that fills a niche. For me, it lets me set up and execute joinery that would take me hours in a fraction of the time (partially because I turn into the slowest worker alive when you put a chisel in my hand, admittedly Iirc, there was some sort of horizontal end-mill router setup from the 80's I think out of New Mexico that did a similar mortise & tenon quick cut. Idk what happened to them. You could probably build your own if you had the time & perseverance. Template & collar type setup.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:30
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Mr. Mambold posted:Iirc, there was some sort of horizontal end-mill router setup from the 80's I think out of New Mexico that did a similar mortise & tenon quick cut. Idk what happened to them. You could probably build your own if you had the time & perseverance. Template & collar type setup. There's always Matthias Wandel's edge mortiser or whatever he calls it. It's not really portable like a domino but it seems like it would work well for production work.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:40
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The Russian guy built a DIY domino and later I believe stumpy nubs copied it. I'm surprised no one built them.
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Jun 3, 2016 16:21
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Mr. Mambold posted:Iirc, there was some sort of horizontal end-mill router setup from the 80's I think out of New Mexico that did a similar mortise & tenon quick cut. Idk what happened to them. You could probably build your own if you had the time & perseverance. Template & collar type setup. Horizontal mortisers are pretty common on euro combo machines (and as standalone machines in euro shops). Oscillating chisel mortisers are also a thing (mainly in the states, and mainly made by Maka) and they make proper square cornered mortises. Bit they are expensive and super goddamn loud. If you are making production quantities of well-made furniture tho, they are hard to beat. What has always confused me, is the people who aren't doing woodworking for a living, but who want to adopt all the efficiency logic and shortcuts of a production shop. Like, if you just want a nightstand for as little time invested then get better at you day job and buy one. If you want it for as little cost as possible then buy some hand tools and get gud. I'm just not sure what logic set leads to "buy equipment that imitates factory methods poorly, so I can make cheaply made furniture without having to develop actual skills." Who is ever happy with the results of that path?
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Jun 4, 2016 00:25
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GEMorris posted:Who is ever happy with the results of that path? They got the results they wanted, viz. they have a bunch of cool toys in their shop. They don't care so much about the furniture they make with said toys. They just want the toys.
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Jun 4, 2016 00:53
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:They got the results they wanted, viz. they have a bunch of cool toys in their shop. They don't care so much about the furniture they make with said toys. They just want the toys. True, I'll not malign what makes them happy or their pursuit of that happiness. I just wish they'd not pretend their methods create an equal result.
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Jun 4, 2016 02:23
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GEMorris posted:True, I'll not malign what makes them happy or their pursuit of that happiness. I just wish they'd not pretend their methods create an equal result. Are you still talking about the domino? :bigtran:
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Jun 4, 2016 02:47
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wormil posted:Are you still talking about the domino? :bigtran: No.
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Jun 4, 2016 02:48
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The only responses to the "why production tooling?" question that I think are valid are as follows: - I have more money than time, but I still want to create exactly what I want. - I lack the skill to pull off creating exactly what I want without production tooling. - I lack the patience to deal with all aspects of creating exactly what I want and therefore expedite the drudgery with production tooling. I unabashedly pull from all three of the above categories. I own a Domino. I use it to do drawer backs instead of dovetails. I use it to do stretchers and to add additional glue area to doors that would otherwise just be small glue surface tongue and groove. I don't feel that there is anything lost by mechanizing a hidden joint. This pertains to categories 1 and 3 above. Before I had a domino, I had used a dowelling jig to get good alignment for hogging out the majority of mortise waste using a drill in the correct plane. In a specific case most recently, it was a set of two swept surfaces that met at an odd angle. I lacked the skill to pull off doing the joinery by hand. I don't think of myself as any less of a woodworker. I do, however, think of myself as not as skilled. Tim Thomas fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 4, 2016 |
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Jun 4, 2016 19:33
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Tim Thomas posted:The only responses to the "why production tooling?" question that I think are valid are as follows: If I had it to do over again, I'd trade with you in a New York minute of having a steady "real" job, and woodworking as a fun hobby, instead of having had to try to support a family as a carpenter in a hosed-up, volatile local economy.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:22
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I have a lot of industrial grade tooling, but I'll never own a domino. They just put me off somehow, as do festool as a whole. Probably the apple of the woodworking vibe (hint, don't own any apple products either). Woodworking for me, is really about thrift. Spending $$$$ on tools as toys might be some peoples idea of fun but for me it defeats the purpose and even makes me sorta loose interest in it. Which is why my shop is full of old powertools and hand tools and very, very few new tools. I'll probably build a slot mortiser though.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:42
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Ok, how about something totally different. One of the things I used to do in new residential construction was door hanging. Before the widespread advent of shop-built prehungs, you had to have some sort of hand planer to bevel the door- a butt or hinge jig (which you could build from plywood, or buy one) a lock drilling kit & 1/" drill, and a router to mortise for the butts. In my house, like most average houses, are slab doors. Cheap, hollow-core, hate 'em. Last year while fixing up flood damage to my shop and the adjacent mudroom, I ran across a seconds door shop and nabbed a few six panel solid core pine doors. Which led to me going back there and stumbling across more cheap doors (think $25 each). So I decided to replace all the rest of the slab doors in the house, which my wife had painted with latex (don't ask why, don't you dare). Problem was, I needed 5 2'6" doors for bedrooms, a heater closet, etc. but they only had 4. They did have a pile of 2'4" doors, so, hell, I'm gonna make one of those work and used it on the heater closet.  Like this- this is a 2'4" 6-panel door (get this, they're veneered!) Notice the stiles are a respectable standard 4".
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Jun 4, 2016 20:44
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I ripped and planed 2 1" strips to beef up the stiles. Is it sacrilege? Let he who has never improvised in his own house waltz the gently caress on outta here. Eclectic bunch of clamps, yeah, I got em. I don't biscuit or dowel things like this to align the glued up pieces, just loosen a clamp and smack judiciously with the deadblow.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:49
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For comparison, here's one of the 2'6" doors.  Here's the cheater door- the pine strips match up pretty nice, I hadn't sanded the left side one yet in this pic.  Sticker on the top saying Made in Chile, btw. Whatever.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:53
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I was at my brothers yesterday, he's a cabinet maker by training but doing fitting and odd jobs right now, he's got a full festool track saw setup with vacuum and when I asked about dominos he just laughed and laughed. Also learned he has a mild wood dust allergy so the festool vacuum isn't overkill.
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Jun 5, 2016 11:33
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Halfway through my workbench restoration, I think. Still a lot of the ghastly purple-ish paint left. The top of the shoulder vise was in such bad shape I replaced it. Still need to chisel new dog holes and plane it flat with the rest of the bench, made it proud on purpose. The face vise moving part was in such disrepair I am building a whole new part. I am considering leather on the faces for maximum grip. Also pondering what finish. BLO, tung oil, perhaps a wax finish? Perhaps oil then wax. Considering antique pine furniture wax to darken it slightly and reduce contrast between old and new wood.
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Jun 6, 2016 06:24
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Looks fantastic, I have a similar model, but one of the previous owners decided to bolt some parts together, so my attempt at some cleanup planing resulted in a nice nicked blade. I was only ever able to give it a nice scrubbing with mineral spirits. Leather on the vice faces is great, I retrofitted mine by making a nice big chop for the shoulder vise, earlier it was just a big wooden screw, much more useful now. IMO I'd avoid wax, tung oil would be nice, but I wouldn't focus on making too slick of a surface, friction is your friend in this case.
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Jun 6, 2016 13:34
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Thanks! Wax was mostly because it's a nice way to color the wood and getting a nice result and without all the fuss and problems of using stain, never been happy with anything I've stained using a separate stain product. I suppose I could try and mix some color into the oil though since I have brown pigment. But it's a bit more experimental.
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Jun 6, 2016 13:50
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