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Why. What could possibly be said that hasn't been said already? Why start a clean slate just so that the same misinformed opinions can be stated again. At least right now there's a record of what's come before.
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Jun 3, 2016 19:15
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Sedge and Bee posted:Why. What could possibly be said that hasn't been said already? Why start a clean slate just so that the same misinformed opinions can be stated again. At least right now there's a record of what's come before. mods could crack down on passive aggressive sniping and prevent dogpiles before they happen, that would be difficult in the memoriam jrod's tomb of stupidity thread
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Jun 3, 2016 19:18
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ToxicSlurpee posted:To be fair though, goons are jerks. ...with hearts of gold? Intrinsically-valuable, non-fiat gold? 
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Jun 3, 2016 19:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's also really hard to be the minority viewpoint in a thread if you're really badly outnumbered. You only have so much time to respond to people, the people you don't respond to think you're deliberately ignoring them, etc. it didn't help that jrode did in fact deliberately ignore them
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Jun 3, 2016 19:19
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It's not like people won't make fun of you for coming in and complaining about people not wanting to debate and then refusing to debate, xwing. You might as well engage with those of us who actually want to talk.
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Jun 3, 2016 19:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's also really hard to be the minority viewpoint in a thread if you're really badly outnumbered. You only have so much time to respond to people, the people you don't respond to think you're deliberately ignoring them, etc. Yeah, and back when there was more heavy handed moderation in D&D it resulted in outcry of mod bias as well. It is drat hard to have quality discussion in a (comedy) forum unless the participants are very disciplined to ignore obvious trolls and careful to engage each other civilly. Unfortunately jrod always tipped his hand by beginning every post with a preamble that screamed I AM NOT HERE IN GOOD FAITH.
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Jun 3, 2016 19:23
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archangelwar posted:Yeah, and back when there was more heavy handed moderation in D&D it resulted in outcry of mod bias as well. and now we just have aa which is arguably worsse
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Jun 3, 2016 19:25
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"What, I actually have to address counter-arguments? I thought you guys would just buy my argument points on face value! How dare you question it!" - Jrod
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Jun 3, 2016 19:38
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CommieGIR posted:"What, I actually have to address counter-arguments? I thought you guys would just buy my argument points on face value! How dare you question it!" - Jrod Content's appropriate, but far too concise.
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Jun 3, 2016 19:44
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archangelwar posted:Yeah, and back when there was more heavy handed moderation in D&D it resulted in outcry of mod bias as well. It is drat hard to have quality discussion in a (comedy) forum unless the participants are very disciplined to ignore obvious trolls and careful to engage each other civilly. Unfortunately jrod always tipped his hand by beginning every post with a preamble that screamed I AM NOT HERE IN GOOD FAITH. Despite all of those things you said this is actually the best forum I've ever been on, hence having a reg date a billion years ago and not wandering off. This is the only internet forum I still post on; the rest are just awful. The paywall does a very good job at keeping dipshits out and aggressively moderating away permabanned users prevents the stupid nonsense other forums tend to get up to. "Don't read the comments, ever" is very good internet advice for a very good reason. jrode is actually a perfect example of one of the problems with discussing things on the internet and is really a perfect indicator of how awful internet lolbertarians are. He'd obviously do research before he posted and reason out his argument logically. The problem was that the logic was twisted and the information came only from pre-approved sources that he assumed were 100% right about absolutely everything. He was thinking "well I don't have to debate because this is right!" Then when people tore apart his arguments he just ignored 99% of what was said and focused on what he perceived as the easiest to defeat arguments. He was basically a strange man in a tinfoil hat desperately trying to get the media's attention so he could tell everybody that lizard people from Mars controlled everything via satellite.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:04
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I've found you'll get a surprising amount of leeway so long as you argue in good faith in DnD, if people think you're not you'll get buried under a mountain of poo poo, but just being wrong will get you, at worst, corrected quickly and sharply. Being wrong persistently and not engaging with it will get you shat on.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:08
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OwlFancier posted:I've found you'll get a surprising amount of leeway so long as you argue in good faith in DnD, if people think you're not you'll get buried under a mountain of poo poo, but just being wrong will get you, at worst, corrected quickly and sharply. Being wrong persistently and not engaging with it will get you shat on. problem is that the people who are champing at the bit to mock you are the ones who decide when you're wrong enough to be mocked
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Jun 3, 2016 20:24
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Wander into USPol and you'll find people engaging in good faith with obvious gimmicks like MIGF and Amergin. Unless you're advocating something utterly reprehensible like child slavery or something, you're going to get at least a few people to debate with. Make the thesis post, xwing.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's also really hard to be the minority viewpoint in a thread if you're really badly outnumbered. You only have so much time to respond to people, the people you don't respond to think you're deliberately ignoring them, etc. There's been previous offers for one-on-one debate from tread regulars in the past, if that's a concern I bet someone would step up to the plate again.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:25
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OwlFancier posted:I've found you'll get a surprising amount of leeway so long as you argue in good faith in DnD, if people think you're not you'll get buried under a mountain of poo poo, but just being wrong will get you, at worst, corrected quickly and sharply. Being wrong persistently and not engaging with it will get you shat on.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:27
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Despite all of those things you said this is actually the best forum I've ever been on, hence having a reg date a billion years ago and not wandering off. This is the only internet forum I still post on; the rest are just awful. The paywall does a very good job at keeping dipshits out and aggressively moderating away permabanned users prevents the stupid nonsense other forums tend to get up to. "Don't read the comments, ever" is very good internet advice for a very good reason. Oh I completely agree which is why I still post here, and rarely use other forums. I love a spirited debate and don't get offended when I hold a minority opinion. It is always interesting to me to watch how people respond to criticism. Hell some posters start calling circle jerk and hive mind in response to only two dissenting posters, so I pick and chose the times I engage to only be with people who will be receptive, or at least understand the source material.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:54
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I may be a masochist... I do agree with that there a ton of wacky Libertarians out there. Wherever that thread breakdown of the candidates was a real showcase of the wacked out nature of the Party. Libertarians are their own worst enemies in that regards. That's kind of why I separate the little "L" libertarian vs. Libertarian to a degree. I also like to point out to those wackos that there's more libertarians or "libertarian-lites" in the Republican Party than Libertarians in the Libertarian Party. I will be voting for Gary Johnson and the LP this election. Laugh if you want. Trump makes me want to barf and Clinton is no better for representing my stances. I'm in Florida, so I do hear both sides moaning on that. I say too bad... I've had a growing dissatisfaction with the Republican Party and I now align more with Libertarian Party issues than the rhetoric Trump has been spouting. I'm likely to be handed a poo poo burger of a candidate either way, I'd like to at least know I didn't vote for either. A "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" stance. I'm still not sure I'd consider myself a libertarian though. Certainly not Libertarian, I've had my own encounters within the LP that are worse than any Jrode crap here. I've also met insufferable Democrats who can't say anything Rachel Maddow hasn't said, and Republican's that think Mike Huckabee is the second coming. I'm totally on the fence on changing my party affiliation because of Florida being a closed primary state. If it was Rand Paul (R) vs. Gary Johnson (L) I'd vote for Rand every time. Example of my personal stance: Immigration. The LP platform is a bit wacky, but the core is alright to me. A wall is asinine as Trump is sticking to. I welcome free movement of labor. I'm in a construction related field and the labor would make costs drop drastically providing a lot of work getting off the ground. If you as an american that has an education (even a H.S. drop-out) and speaks english can't find your spot in that scenario (management), I have little sympathy. Some of the hard core Libertarians advocate for no passports and open borders... I realize this is not possible or wise. If coming here is as simple as a declaration of: "I'm here, I'm working, Yes, I'll pay taxes"... I'd be pretty happy though. xwing fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jun 3, 2016 |
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Jun 3, 2016 21:08
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Lmao yes lemme just walk into anconstruction site and be like hi I am in charge now
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Jun 3, 2016 21:12
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xwing posted:Example of my personal stance: Immigration. The LP platform is a bit wacky, but the core is alright to me. A wall is asinine as Trump is sticking to. I welcome free movement of labor. I'm in a construction related field and the labor would make costs drop drastically providing a lot of work getting off the ground. If you as an american that has an education (even a H.S. drop-out) and speaks english can't find your spot in that scenario (management), I have little sympathy. Some of the hard core Libertarians advocate for no passports and open borders... I realize this is not possible or wise. If coming here is as simple as a declaration of: "I'm here, I'm working, Yes, I'll pay taxes"... I'd be pretty happy though. How many management positions do you think there are to be had? Certainly you don't think that there'd be anywhere near enough for every educated, English-speaking American in your field, right? And why would it drive costs down so dramatically? If they're coming over legally then presumably they wouldn't be taking slave-level wages by necessity and could ask for a more fair wage, right?
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Jun 3, 2016 21:15
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xwing posted:
lol why is it the libertarian stance on immigration is always that it's excellent to import a bunch of brown serfs for whites to lord over it's almost as if this ideology exists to justify structural racism or something.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:19
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HorseLord posted:lol why is it the libertarian stance on immigration is always that it's excellent to import a bunch of brown serfs for whites to lord over I'm gonna give xwing the benefit of the doubt and just believe he's very tone deaf rather than actively racist.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:33
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xwing posted:Example of my personal stance: Immigration. The LP platform is a bit wacky, but the core is alright to me. A wall is asinine as Trump is sticking to. I welcome free movement of labor. I'm in a construction related field and the labor would make costs drop drastically providing a lot of work getting off the ground. If you as an american that has an education (even a H.S. drop-out) and speaks english can't find your spot in that scenario (management), I have little sympathy. Some of the hard core Libertarians advocate for no passports and open borders... I realize this is not possible or wise. If coming here is as simple as a declaration of: "I'm here, I'm working, Yes, I'll pay taxes"... I'd be pretty happy though. Context: I'm an tradesman that works industrial construction. Construction trades are, in general, physically damaging (short and long term) with plenty of ways to accidentally kill oneself. You want brown people to work dangerous jobs that frequently lead to long-term physical disabilities (and a few thousand fatalities per year), for less pay, while white people safely lord over them for many times the $$$. Yikes.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:34
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Who What Now posted:How many management positions do you think there are to be had? Certainly you don't think that there'd be anywhere near enough for every educated, English-speaking American in your field, right? And why would it drive costs down so dramatically? If they're coming over legally then presumably they wouldn't be taking slave-level wages by necessity and could ask for a more fair wage, right? I was using "management" loosely. Every construction site I've ever been on has someone "in charge" that speaks english and spanish. And really this is a hypothetical. I don't know if there is and neither do you, it'd be conjecture. I do know my own situation that we don't have enough block layers. My friends also in the field have echo'ed across the state that labor is the limiting factor driving costs on their projects. CMU blocks are the norm but prices have gotten so high with the few sub-contractors that are here that we have had to build in other materials that haven't been the norm, like steel. If immigration was looser it'd be easier for a semi-experienced block layer to get labor and strike it out on his own. Wages are another issue. If they're wiling to live on less, that's their choice. Yes, I'm aware taken to an extreme that could create "favela" type situations. I personally would like to live a better lifestyle so I work for that, but it's not a basic right or anything wrong with being "poor". Pablo might also be a rapist, Ahmed might want to jihad us all, etc... could we not exaggerate and go down that road? HorseLord posted:lol why is it the libertarian stance on immigration is always that it's excellent to import a bunch of brown serfs for whites to lord over That "management" could be a second generation Hispanic where being bilingual is an advantage. How else would you like to imply that the idea is inherently racist? I only spoke of it in that manner because that's the context that it's generally talked about and I referenced with Trump. I had a lot of Chinese students in my graduate program. Some stayed and some didn't. I'm cool with that too, if they can do my job as well or willing to get paid less I'm willing to work within that market.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:40
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Who What Now posted:I'm gonna give xwing the benefit of the doubt and just believe he's very tone deaf rather than actively racist. Same. xwing posted:Example of my personal stance: Immigration. The LP platform is a bit wacky, but the core is alright to me. A wall is asinine as Trump is sticking to. I welcome free movement of labor. I'm in a construction related field and the labor would make costs drop drastically providing a lot of work getting off the ground. If you as an american that has an education (even a H.S. drop-out) and speaks english can't find your spot in that scenario (management), I have little sympathy. Some of the hard core Libertarians advocate for no passports and open borders... I realize this is not possible or wise. If coming here is as simple as a declaration of: "I'm here, I'm working, Yes, I'll pay taxes"... I'd be pretty happy though. There are 2.5 million unemployed Americans with less than a college degree. There aren't enough construction sites in the country to employ that many people, even ignoring the "management" bit. So what happens to the remainder? Do you have no little sympathy for them?
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Jun 3, 2016 21:42
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xwing posted:Wages are another issue. If they're wiling to live on less, that's their choice. Yes, I'm aware taken to an extreme that could create "favela" type situations. I personally would like to live a better lifestyle so I work for that, but it's not a basic right or anything wrong with being "poor". No one wants to live on less, they'd like to be paid the fair value of their labor.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:43
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I think it's because most libertarians are sort of "temporarily embarrassed middle class" folk. They know they're not going to ever be a billionaires or captains of industry, but if there wasn't a minimum wage and a huge worker-caste they'd at least have SOMEONE to lord over and finally get that middle class lifestyle america promised them but has been vanishing over the last generation for some weird reason (probably government regulations and taxes). They generally have no concept of how wage depression or labour markets actually work so just assume they'd be on the winning side of things. Most libertarians I've actually engaged with mostly just have an incredibly naive and simple understanding on how "the economy" works coupled with an inability to see society as anything but a collection of individuals. "I work in a struggling widget factory, my boss says we're struggling because of taxes and regulations and high labour costs. If we allowed a bunch of people to come in and work for sub-minimum wage and work what ever hours they want our factory could make more money and I'd obviously get a promotion to oversee these new workers and make more money. Here I've outlined a situation where depressing wages through immigration and cutting regulations will make me, an individual, richer. Society is just millions of individuals like me, so how this situation affects me will be more or less how it affects everyone else. I'm a pretty average guy, so anyone who can't figure out how to benefit from this situation like I did is stupid and deserves to fail." Also all those new not-slaves will be able to just work hard and get promoted over time anyways, so it's good for them too in the long run. The economy is always growing, population is always growing, demand is always growing, so there is unlimited room for success under this model. Everyone can start at the bottom and work their way up as the ever-rising tide forever lifts all ships! (not that I actually care about the underclass, I just need them to exist in hopes their exploitation trickles down and makes me more comfortable)
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Jun 3, 2016 21:45
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I'd point out that Construction Jobs are very famine or feast as far as jobs go.... Mostly famine.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:45
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xwing posted:I was using "management" loosely. Every construction site I've ever been on has someone "in charge" that speaks english and spanish. And really this is a hypothetical. I don't know if there is and neither do you, it'd be conjecture. Wait, so now they have to be bilingual and not just speak English? And just one per job site? Well, we actually don't have to work on pure conjecture, we can look at the number of job sites that there are in the nation and use that to predict the number of "management" jobs that would be available. And while I'm not going to do that, because I'm at work and lazy, but I'm going to guess that it's not enough to cover every American worker in your field. That seems like an incredibly safe bet to make. quote:I do know my own situation that we don't have enough block layers. My friends also in the field have echo'ed across the state that labor is the limiting factor driving costs on their projects. CMU blocks are the norm but prices have gotten so high with the few sub-contractors that are here that we have had to build in other materials that haven't been the norm, like steel. If immigration was looser it'd be easier for a semi-experienced block layer to get labor and strike it out on his own. Ok, so who's going to hire you when they can just hire someone at less than the wages you're asking for instead? And this isn't an insane hypothetical, this is something that happens today. quote:Pablo might also be a rapist, Ahmed might want to jihad us all, etc... could we not exaggerate and go down that road? I didn't? What the gently caress are you talking about? Saying people will work for wages below a livable one has nothing to do with someone being a rapist or a terrorist. What?
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Jun 3, 2016 21:50
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xwing posted:I was using "management" loosely. Every construction site I've ever been on has someone "in charge" that speaks english and spanish. And really this is a hypothetical. I don't know if there is and neither do you, it'd be conjecture. Not living in literal slums because you aren't paid a fair wage isn't a right and it's not a problem with poverty - you, in this post
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Jun 3, 2016 21:52
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I love that xwing is basically agreeing with what is happening in the IT Industry in Insurance, at Disney, and multiple other places: Fire all the people paid a living wage, and outsource their jobs to India and Pakistan among others. Oh, and make them train their replacements in a humiliating fashion.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:53
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CommieGIR posted:I love that xwing is basically agreeing with what is happening in the IT Industry in Insurance, at Disney, and multiple other places: Right but that will increase the profits of the corporation, who will in turn hire more "managers" and give them more money to invest in the economy. If the economy is growing we're all collectively getting richer some how. I mean think about it. A company does a thing that allows them to make more money, this means there's more money to go around in the economy, more money to pay people higher wages. How can it not be good??? If you want everyone making higher wages we first need to lower everyone's wages.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:58
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Just to quantify managerial positions, the last project I was on had roughly 550 tradespeoples. Management (foremen and up, excluding clerical) was maybe 5% of that. Management also doesn't scale directly with the size of the project. A small one can have a fairly narrow management:trades ratio, a very large one will have a fuckload of trades per manager. Edit: Going crazy with subcontractors can lead to a top heavy distribution, though. I'm also assuming a low level of corruption. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jun 3, 2016 |
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Jun 3, 2016 21:59
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In my proposed society, everyone is in management except Dennis. We all work very hard to optimize our use of Dennis.
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Jun 3, 2016 22:00
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Baronjutter posted:Right but that will increase the profits of the corporation, who will in turn hire more "managers" and give them more money to invest in the economy. If the economy is growing we're all collectively getting richer some how. Its not like these companies need people to buy their products or anything.
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Jun 3, 2016 22:01
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Goon Danton posted:Same. The libertarian answer to that is that it's the government's fault for daring to have a minimum wage or that it's proof that the government regulations are too tight. If it were easier to start a business then obviously all of those people would just do that. So cut regulations so poors can start businesses! The typical libertarian answer is "well in libertopia that wouldn't happen" without ever articulating how. Other than, of course, jrode's "demand is effectively infinite" bullshit.
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Jun 3, 2016 22:01
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Lottery of Babylon posted:In my proposed society, everyone is in management except Dennis. We all work very hard to optimize our use of Dennis. Dennis is a piece of poo poo
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Jun 3, 2016 22:02
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I heard Dennis was a statist
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Jun 3, 2016 22:02
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Literally The Worst posted:I heard Dennis was a statist Glad to see someone finally willing to speak truth to Big Dennis.
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Jun 3, 2016 22:05
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The libertarian answer to that is that it's the government's fault for daring to have a minimum wage or that it's proof that the government regulations are too tight. If it were easier to start a business then obviously all of those people would just do that. So cut regulations so poors can start businesses! And then you mention the Gilded Age and they put their fingers in their ears and mumble.
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Jun 3, 2016 22:05
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Glad to see someone finally willing to speak truth to Big Dennis. The Dennis industry is getting out of control if you ask me
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Jun 3, 2016 22:06
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