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it's loving hot in Europe I'm torn between going out for coffee with a friend and staying at home drinking sixteen rum cocktails while capitalism rips itself apart at the seams around me as more and more beautiful hipsters throw away their degrees to commit themselves to my coffee
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Jun 4, 2016 17:04
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Brainiac Five posted:Kliman's argument, (or at least the version he uses for laypeople) is that productivity has outpaced compensation growth, just not for workers as a whole, but due to increasing divergence within compensation generally. Or at least that's an implicit conclusion, in that he explicitly notes that relative stagnation is a consequence of increasing shares of total compensation going to executives and senior managers and so on. How do you get that from Kliman? There are lots of his arguments going around, including those pre-GFC, but Kliman is impressively consistent in rejecting Keynesianism, post-Keynesianism, etc. and going wholly Marxist. The TRPF cannot fail, it can only be failed. Here is Kliman himself, explicitly weighing in: quote:That the compensation share and the profit share have been basically constant is a well known and accepted fact. For instance, in The Crisis of Neoliberalism, Dumenil and Levy have a graph very similar to mine. And Piketty and Saez, who have become famous for their studies arguing that income inequality has increased markedly, also have a similar graph in a 2003 paper, and they write, “As is well-known, factor shares in the corporate sector have been fairly flat in the long run with the labor share around 70–75 percent, and the capital share around 25–30 percent.” I assume that Sam won’t try to dismiss the Dumenil, Levy, Piketty, and Saez as extremely reactionary economists who have dedicated their lives to defending and prettifying U.S. capitalism.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:07
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Shazback posted:So you support vastly increasing the income of farmers then, since the work each one of them does today was done by a dozen or more farmhands three centuries ago, and their produce is of better quality too? Like I get the feeling when people look at those graphs and automatically think 'the worker is getting screwed' they really don't understand what happened. Workers aren't working any harder than they were 50 years ago, in fact they are working considerably less. All the productivity gains have occurred because capitalists have invested in automation and now one worker can do what 20 did while still working less hard. It's not the workers who became more productive, its' the machines. It's kinda like in the states how people tend to think free trade killed manufacturing. The US manufactures more than loving ever, it's just all done in high tech factories with more machines than workers. And of course people focus on dumb poo poo like the minimum wage! The loving minimum wage is a dying concept, in a time when incredible advancements in automation are less than 20 years away (driverless cars, huge leaps in factory / warehouse automation and so on) it's completely irrelevant. Unskilled labor could easily be almost completely extinct within 50 years is how fast this poo poo is coming. And to be frank there's going to be a lot of dummies that just can't perform high skilled labor. The left needs to turn the conversation to something like mincome imo, because there just ain't going to be enough jobs pretty soon. waitwhatno posted:It's not about sharing the revenue fairly, it's about sharing the profits. Farming is not a very profitable business right now. Another thing people gently caress up is thinking unions dying is entirely the rights fault. They've certainly done their share but really the ultimate problem is that the nature of work changed and unions didn't evolve. It's a lot easier to unionize big factories where there's lots of people doing similar work with similar efficiency than a modern office with small amounts of people working different jobs with huge variances in skill level. There needs to be a lot more focus in this area instead of 'those mean mean republicans' because when people only focus on the rights opposition they completely miss why things actually happened the way they did. Additionally the huge focus on individualism over the group has also had huge impacts on union participation. Millennials may love Sanders but most do not want to work in a typical union type structure with rigid adherence to seniority, and again most of the standard union ideas simply just don't work anymore because of how the nature of work has changed. Friendly Humour posted:That's a meaningless statement when real wages have remained stagnant for the past 8 years. You can select whatever point in the past before 2008 and say that real wages have increased. As for productivity, you are completely mistaken. If I work more hours for the same pay, in reality I'm getting paid less despite my real wages remaining constant. That's not what has happened though, the exact opposite actually. People have more leisure time than ever before and it's not even close. Really what's going on to make it appear the opposite is that social media is exposing the have-nots in a way that never has happened before. This is a good thing since it means problems are getting fixed faster than ever. Take something like trans rights for example, simply amazing how fast things are changing there.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:10
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GaussianCopula posted:It really doesn't, as this graph will show you: Are you kidding me? Are you freaking kidding me? Wage stagnation is okay as long as workers keep producing? What, you just expected the workers to roll over and die from wage stagnation? Holy poo poo you are an awful human being.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:11
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That flag from the Clown Forum about how the economy is bad. there's not enough jobs and there won't ever be again . . .
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Jun 4, 2016 17:15
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ronya posted:How do you get that from Kliman? There are lots of his arguments going around, including those pre-GFC, but Kliman is impressively consistent in rejecting Keynesianism, post-Keynesianism, etc. and going wholly Marxist. The TRPF cannot fail, it can only be failed. Kliman argues that the compensation and profit shares have been constant, but that the structure of compensation has altered, producing stagnation in real wages for most workers. Or at least he does in this article from two years ago: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/are_corporations_really_stealing_workers_wages_20140409 More relevant to the start of this subthread, I suspect the divergence in the data is due to the massive inflation in healthcare and education costs most of all, which speaks to the efforts of market liberal politicians to privatize healthcare and increase the cost of tertiary education in Europe as a end that would make workers more "competitive" by grinding down their standard of living alongside efforts to cut wages and increase working hours.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:18
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:The left needs to turn the conversation to something like mincome imo, because there just ain't going to be enough jobs pretty soon. We did. The problem is that the right then say "filthy immigrants will get it too!" so minimum wage, which often enables discrimination of immigrants, was the front that had to be retreated to.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:24
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Mincome and basic income are arguably going to fall apart if automation actually continues to where a majority of people are unemployable and you'd have to move to direct distribution of goods or deliberate overproduction.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:26
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The thing is, it can't go on like this forever. If the capitalistic system cannot provide fair compensation to workers in democratic countries, they're going to start voting for people who promise to change that. Harp on about competetiveness all you want, but you can't raise productivity and corporate profits forever without sharing out that wealth if you want the workers to be content. And discontented workers have a habit of loving things up, as we can see in France fight now. TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:It's kinda like in the states how people tend to think free trade killed manufacturing. The US manufactures more than loving ever, it's just all done in high tech factories with more machines than workers. And of course people focus on dumb poo poo like the minimum wage! The loving minimum wage is a dying concept, in a time when incredible advancements in automation are less than 20 years away (driverless cars, huge leaps in factory / warehouse automation and so on) it's completely irrelevant. Unskilled labor could easily be almost completely extinct within 50 years is how fast this poo poo is coming. And to be frank there's going to be a lot of dummies that just can't perform high skilled labor. The left needs to turn the conversation to something like mincome imo, because there just ain't going to be enough jobs pretty soon. Which I'm sure won't result in any kind of civil strife at all. A society where machines do all the work and capitalists take all the profits cannot work. Capitalistic pursuit of profit is indeed making low-skilled work less and less viable, and that in itself ensures that it cannot sustain itself. Well, not without a massive increase in violent oppression anyway...
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Jun 4, 2016 17:27
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it does imply a very different sort of politics; if you're the proletariat, then it is sensible to organize attempts to withhold your labour; if you're the unnecessariat, then you cannot win any confrontation through escalation.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:30
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ronya posted:it does imply a very different sort of politics; if you're the proletariat, then it is sensible to organize attempts to withhold your labour; if you're the unnecessariat, then you cannot win any confrontation through escalation. That does not prevent escalation in any way. People with nothing to lose, well you know.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:31
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Friendly Humour posted:That does not prevent escalation in any way. People with nothing to lose, well you know. If only the EU hadn't taken away all of our guns!!
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Jun 4, 2016 17:33
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Tesseraction posted:We did. The problem is that the right then say "filthy immigrants will get it too!" so minimum wage, which often enables discrimination of immigrants, was the front that had to be retreated to. Maybe the left shouldn't have hitched their wagon to open borders.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:50
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Right on cue. It goes without saying that the escalation leads to other lovely outcomes without necessarily being successful at the achieving its nominal aims.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:52
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Sinteres posted:Maybe the left shouldn't have hitched their wagon to open borders. Maybe the right should not have also done that.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:52
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Sinteres posted:Maybe the left shouldn't have hitched their wagon to open borders. A racist left seems to be defeating the point.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:54
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If only we had a kind of nationalist leftism.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:55
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the discussion does lead me to an interesting (academic) question about value though. in an interpretation of marx that acknowledges the labor theory of value it seems that roboticization of labor would make capitalism itself impossible, if it is true that human labor creates value. there'd be no more profits to make for capitalists when the robot made commodities are valueless and if they'd be priced according to their value. i wonder how this will go.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:56
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did someone say Strasserism?
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Jun 4, 2016 17:56
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ronya posted:Right on cue. It goes without saying that the escalation leads to other lovely outcomes without necessarily being successful at the achieving its nominal aims. Correct. That's basically what Slavoj Zizek has been saying for years, that going forward the capitalistic system will not be able to sustain itself in a democratic society. Hell, nowadays the most succesful capitalistic societies are already ones without democracy. But I can assure you that a people used to democracy will not accept its demise without a bitter, bloody fight. The future of class war is going to be incredible.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:57
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:it's loving hot in Europe I'm torn between going out for coffee with a friend and staying at home drinking sixteen rum cocktails while capitalism rips itself apart at the seams around me as more and more beautiful hipsters throw away their degrees to commit themselves to my coffee is it hot. here it feels like december except without heating because landlords only give a gently caress about what's written on the calendar.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:59
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:the discussion does lead me to an interesting (academic) question about value though. in an interpretation of marx that acknowledges the labor theory of value it seems that roboticization of labor would make capitalism itself impossible, if it is true that human labor creates value. there'd be no more profits to make for capitalists when the robot made commodities are valueless and if they'd be priced according to their value. i wonder how this will go. Unless the robots can design things, there's still residual labor to squeeze profit from, though.
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Jun 4, 2016 17:59
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The labour theory of value is bonkers and dumb.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:01
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Kurtofan posted:is it hot. here it feels like december except without heating because landlords only give a gently caress about what's written on the calendar. its 27c here and we're cooling down now. i just went for a jog and barely managed 5k at this sh*t temperature Brainiac Five posted:Unless the robots can design things, there's still residual labor to squeeze profit from, though. less and less though
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Jun 4, 2016 18:01
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Friendly Humour posted:Correct. That's basically what Slavoj Zizek has been saying for years, that going forward the capitalistic system will not be able to sustain itself in a democratic society. Hell, nowadays the most succesful capitalistic societies are already ones without democracy. But I can assure you that a people used to democracy will not accept its demise without a bitter, bloody fight. The future of class war is going to be incredible. The only majorly successful non-democratic capitalist country right now is China and they're still going through their industrialization phase. Most of Europe during that same phase was non-democratic as well.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:01
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Friendly Humour posted:The labour theory of value is bonkers and dumb. you are.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:01
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:you are. nu-uh!
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Jun 4, 2016 18:03
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:its 27c here and we're cooling down now. i just went for a jog and barely managed 5k at this sh*t temperature Yeah and there's also less and less demand for anything as the number of surviving people decreases, so it actually seems somewhat intuitive that profit would disappear independent of LTV.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:06
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computer parts posted:A racist left seems to be defeating the point. The right rejects open borders because of racism, but the left could have rejected them because of the practical effect mass immigration has of destroying solidarity and fueling far right parties. Privileging the concerns of immigrants who don't even share leftist goals over the concerns of native workers is why workers give up on the left.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:21
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Sinteres posted:The right rejects open borders because of racism, but the left could have rejected them because of the practical effect mass immigration has of destroying solidarity and fueling far right parties. Privileging the concerns of immigrants who don't even share leftist goals over the concerns of native workers is why workers give up on the left. native workers are labor aristocracy
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Jun 4, 2016 18:24
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Sinteres posted:The right rejects open borders because of racism, but the left could have rejected them because of the practical effect mass immigration has of destroying solidarity and fueling far right parties. Privileging the concerns of immigrants who don't even share leftist goals over the concerns of native workers is why workers give up on the left. My point is that supporting policies that racists explicitly do for racist reasons, even if your motives are different, is bad.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:28
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computer parts posted:My point is that supporting policies that racists explicitly do for racist reasons, even if your motives are different, is bad. So is denying reality and playing the noble martyr. At some point purity has to be balanced against winning.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:30
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Sinteres posted:So is denying reality and playing the noble martyr. At some point purity has to be balanced against winning. A socialist says this?
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Jun 4, 2016 18:32
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computer parts posted:A socialist says this? Why attack him personally? Attack his argument.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:33
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Sinteres posted:The right rejects open borders because of racism, but the left could have rejected them because of the practical effect mass immigration has of destroying solidarity and fueling far right parties. Privileging the concerns of immigrants who don't even share leftist goals over the concerns of native workers is why workers give up on the left. Sorry, but are you high? If you are talking about Europe, who is privileging the concerns of immigrants over the concerns of native workers? If you are talking about refugees, those get around 140EUR per month and a piss stained mattress in a gym hall, to sleep on. Is this about the piss stained mattress? Cause you can make those by yourself, if you really need one that badly. I can explain how.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:34
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Nativists also don't share leftist goals, so the natural conclusion would be doing nothing because we either have the nebulous menace of immigrants or the tangible evil of the citizenry.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:35
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:Why attack him personally? Attack his argument. The argument is absurd, coming from a socialist. Context matters.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:35
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computer parts posted:The argument is absurd, coming from a socialist. okay, then say he's right wing. the argument loving stands. you're being pathetic.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:37
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waitwhatno posted:Sorry, but are you high? If you are talking about Europe, who is privileging the concerns of immigrants over the concerns of native workers? immigrants are cheap labor that will be used as a reserve army of labor at the very least.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:38
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:okay, then say he's right wing. the argument loving stands. No, because then he's also a racist. Unless you mean to imply the argument is inherently racist, which is an interesting line of thought.
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Jun 4, 2016 18:38
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