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the fact you're reading a manga where you thought it was plausible 
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May 31, 2016 20:54
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Jose posted:the fact you're reading a manga where you thought it was plausible And good series, most notably Spirit Circle, have done exactly that with their ghost buddy characters. Anyways, enough with this conversation.
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May 31, 2016 21:01
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So I really liked Death Note a lot but after finishing it I didn't move onto Bakuman because it just ddin't sound like my kind of series. However I hear the team behind DN is working on this new series called Platinum End. Would anyone here recommend it? Someone elsewhere said it was "derivative" but in a good way because it was "Miraki Nikki done better than Mirai Nikki." I never read that either, though.
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Jun 4, 2016 19:43
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It's boring. Read bakuman instead.
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Jun 4, 2016 19:56
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platinum end is pretty bad really bad translations too
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Jun 4, 2016 21:51
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It's basically Death Note but inverted. Instead of grotesque murder fairies handing out deadly books for shits and giggles, it's morally ambiguous angels handing out divine powers for the hunger games, bible edition. Also the protagonist isn't a remorseless sociopath.
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Jun 4, 2016 22:27
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K. Flaps posted:It's boring. Read bakuman instead. A series about a bunch of mangaka doesn't sound very interesting.... I mean, I'm sure some mangaka live pretty interesting lives, especially with how hellish weekly series are in Japan, but it's not something I have any interest in reading a story about. Is it actually better or more interesting than it sounds? Fuego Fish posted:It's basically Death Note but inverted. Instead of grotesque murder fairies handing out deadly books for shits and giggles, it's morally ambiguous angels handing out divine powers for the hunger games, bible edition. Also the protagonist isn't a remorseless sociopath. Hey, Light wasn't a sociopath! He was just kind of a dickhead. Maybe I'll check out a preview chapter or something. It sounds kinda whatever.
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Jun 4, 2016 22:37
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NikkolasKing posted:A series about a bunch of mangaka doesn't sound very interesting.... I mean, I'm sure some mangaka live pretty interesting lives, especially with how hellish weekly series are in Japan, but it's not something I have any interest in reading a story about. Bakuman is pretty fun but it suffers from two things: primarily that it's a Jump manga about fictional mangas published by Jump, so while it can have zany antics from the artists/writers, it always has to depict Jump as being fair and equitable and basically the best. There's never any real criticism of the way that Jump does things, because there's no way Jump would ever let that be published. Second is that Kaya isn't given more attention. Best character by a long shot. NikkolasKing posted:Hey, Light wasn't a sociopath! He was just kind of a dickhead. Light was literally a sociopath. He murders swathes of people, and exploits many others, to try and accomplish his incredibly self-centred goal of ruling the planet. That's a little beyond "kind of a dickhead".
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Jun 4, 2016 23:07
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IIRC his ultimate goal after he killed all the criminals and enforced his ordered society was to start culling everyone who he deemed useless to society.
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Jun 4, 2016 23:35
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Fuego Fish posted:Light was literally a sociopath. He murders swathes of people, and exploits many others, to try and accomplish his incredibly self-centred goal of ruling the planet. That's a little beyond "kind of a dickhead". Light is literally sick after he commits his first murder. He felt horrible about it. That, plus the entire Amnesiac Arc, shows Light wasn't a born killer, he was made into one by the corrupting power of life and death being in his hands. Also if you set such stock in things, Ohba said Light would have become an amazing detective if he had never found the Death Note. There is some support for that in the story as it's mentioned Light had worked on a few cases with his dad before the series began.
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Jun 4, 2016 23:58
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People give the second half of Death Note a lot of flak, and it's largely deserved, but Near makes a single salient point during the confrontation with Light: a normal person either wouldn't have used the book at all, or would've used it once, been horrified, and thrown it away (or destroyed it or locked it up). Light is visibly sickened by his first use of the book, but very quickly comes to accept the notion that he is uniquely qualified to judge humanity, and is perfectly willing to murder (presumably) innocent policemen and investigators just doing their jobs in order to secure his own anonymity. When confronted by the fiancee of one of his victims, a young woman with a background in the FBI just trying to learn the truth of who killed her loved one, he doesn't hesitate to manipulate her with the clear intent of killing her. I don't recall him having much difficulty manipulating Misa Amane either. His first big mistake in the series is promptly killing (not actually) a detective (not actually) on international television for claiming he could catch him, an ostentatious display of power which ends up giving away his location. Light wasn't necessarily a born killer, but there was obviously something very wrong with him from day one. Arguing he was corrupted might carry a little more weight if he ever showed even the slightest trace of a moral quandary over killing people who were "Good" but "Inconvenient" for him. He lost his lunch once, then got over it.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:12
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Also Light was an idiot because he was murdering tons of criminals as if every convicted criminal was guilty, rather than doing research on things. Oh and not doing things like "hey maybe I should off a genocidal warlord or a corrupt politician who used his power and influence to steal the only existing steak from the meat planet"
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Jun 5, 2016 02:31
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Platinum End started okay but the latest chapter is just gross.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:33
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Fuego Fish posted:It's basically Death Note but inverted. Instead of grotesque murder fairies handing out deadly books for shits and giggles, it's morally ambiguous angels handing out divine powers for the hunger games, bible edition. Also the protagonist isn't a remorseless sociopath. The number of people in the comments who hate this new series because the main character isn't a total "badass" like Light or the guy from Tokyo Ghoul is hilarious. Just a bunch of people totally losing their poo poo about the main character - gasp! - being hesitant to kill people. I mean, Platinum End isn't exactly very good so far, but "the main character not being (what a 15 year old boy considers to be) a badass" is not the reason why. I think the thing about Platinum End that bugs me the most is that they can supposedly outrun the arrow using the wings, but by all appearances they still have a normal brain and the same ability to process and react to things of a normal human. So even if you could technically fly super fast, it would still be really easy to hit you with the arrow (or even just a regular gun) because you wouldn't be able to react in time to dodge it. As a side note, I think it's funny how the series makes an attempt to justify literally every "god candidate" being Japanese by saying "well, uh, lots of Japanese people commit suicide."
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Jun 5, 2016 02:36
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Bad Seafood posted:People give the second half of Death Note a lot of flak, and it's largely deserved, but Near makes a single salient point during the confrontation with Light: a normal person either wouldn't have used the book at all, or would've used it once, been horrified, and thrown it away (or destroyed it or locked it up). It's important to remember that before he goes off murdering detectives, he has his meeting with Ryuk. I always liked that scene and in fact Light's and Ryuk's relationship is a high point of the series for me. Anyway, remember that Light figured, correctly, that he had a magic artifact in his hands and such things don't just happen for no reason. He figured he was going to Hell for what he did and if Ryuk showed up in my house, I would figure he was here to drag me off to eternal torment as well. So Light, having already made the proverbial jump off the slippery slope in his own mind, just decided to run with it. But far from being some angel of vengeance or demon, Ryuk merely encouraged Light. I love this scene because it contrasts so well with Light's actual death and shows just how far Light fell over the course of the series. Beginning of series Light faced down eternal damnation with dignity, end of series Light quaked in absolute dread of simply dying with absolutely no repercussions for anything he had done. In the end I think Light was doomed by the Death Note enabling his narcissism and perfectionist tendencies. You'll remember the first name he wrote down was actually a mistake but he rationalized it away as "but I'm a perfect student and person and never make mistakes!" PringleCreamEgg posted:Also Light was an idiot because he was murdering tons of criminals as if every convicted criminal was guilty, rather than doing research on things. Oh and not doing things like "hey maybe I should off a genocidal warlord or a corrupt politician who used his power and influence to steal the only existing steak from the meat planet" Two things: 1. Light is the son of a police officer. This obviously had a profound effect on him. He could have used the Death Note to,as you say, kill politicians or maybe even used it as a tool for running for political office himself. But all he ever did, all he ever wanted to do, was punish criminals. 2. This one I'm less certain about because I don't live there nor do I claim to be an expert but Japan apparently believes in guilty until proven innocent even more than most people here in the States do. If you're in jail, it's because you deserve to be there and any trial stuff later on is immaterial. And I know it's "officially" innocent until proven guilty but I hope everyone here knows that's not true in the court of public opinion. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 02:45
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NikkolasKing posted:1. Light is the son of a police officer. This obviously had a profound effect on him. He could have used the Death Note to,as you say, kill politicians or maybe even used it as a tool for running for political office himself. This point is never really elaborated on since the struggle with L and Near takes up the whole rest of the series, but from the very start Light wanted to kill off everyone he felt was undesirable. NikkolasKing posted:But all he ever did, all he ever wanted to do, was punish criminals.
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Jun 5, 2016 03:36
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Galvanik posted:Again, in the first chapter Light outright says his ultimate goal is to start killing off ALL useless people in subtle, non heart attack ways. He's only starting with obviously killing criminals because that's the way to make the biggest impact fastest. I honestly don't remember that bit about killing useless people in the first chapter. In Part 2 he thinks Mikami is right to kill lazy people but that Mikami was simply doing it too soon. And I'm not saying Light was right, I'm just saying that he zeroed in on criminals for a reason and I would bet anything that reason is because his father is a polite detective. Light clearly had a lot of respect for Soichiro. Love I'm not so sure about.
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Jun 5, 2016 03:54
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NikkolasKing posted:I honestly don't remember that bit about killing useless people in the first chapter. In Part 2 he thinks Mikami is right to kill lazy people but that Mikami was simply doing it too soon. Light's absolute power definitely had a hand in him spiraling into an out of control megalomanic, but there was definitely something Not Right about him from day one. Even with criminal killin' it shows him fully believing that he has the right to do that. It's pretty easy to see his logic train spiral from "This is the right thing to do" "People who try to stop me from doing this are wrong" "People who disagree with me are wrong" "People I disapprove of are wrong". The initial problems were always there. I'll always give part 2 props for how he dies though. Forced to confront the fact that he's just a psychotic murderer and not some kind of god and dying without a shred of dignity. Eat poo poo.
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Jun 5, 2016 04:20
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One thing that kind of bugs me about later Death Note is the fact that Light's actions supposedly do manage to greatly reduce crime (and they mention crime rates returning to normal a year after his death). In real life this obviously wouldn't be the case, and it seemed like some attempt to add moral ambiguity into a situation where Light is just obviously evil and wrong.
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Jun 5, 2016 04:52
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Crime only dropped because criminals were scared of a (seemingly) Omnipotent Omniscient Kira.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:25
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Ytlaya posted:One thing that kind of bugs me about later Death Note is the fact that Light's actions supposedly do manage to greatly reduce crime (and they mention crime rates returning to normal a year after his death). In real life this obviously wouldn't be the case, and it seemed like some attempt to add moral ambiguity into a situation where Light is just obviously evil and wrong. Has there ever been a time when a guy with magic powers was going around killing people in a way that was blatantly magical? To use an appropriate cliche, every criminal had the fear of god put into them. In any event, I'll get like the first volume of Bakuman and Platinum End and see which I like better. I hope Ohba/Obata aren't one of those one hit wonders.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:39
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NikkolasKing posted:Has there ever been a time when a guy with magic powers was going around killing people in a way that was blatantly magical? Yeah but shouldn't it have been obvious and widely reported that only people convicted were being killed? So effectively it's no different than having a mandatory death sentence for the sorts of crimes Light finds worth punishing, and we know that harsher penalties for violent crimes like murder don't actually deter them. Like, I could understand crime rates dropping some as a result of Light/Kira's actions, but not as dramatically as they supposedly did.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:50
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Except wasn't Kira explicitly killing people NOT convicted as well?
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Jun 5, 2016 05:54
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RatHat posted:Except wasn't Kira explicitly killing people NOT convicted as well? Oh, maybe I mis-remembered that, though how the gently caress would he even know who to kill in that case? Did he just kill anyone that was arrested and accused of a bad crime? Either way, it still seems like that wouldn't be much different than a mandatory death penalty, especially in a country like Japan where being accused usually = being convicted.
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Jun 5, 2016 06:10
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It also mentioned that the crime rate of planned crimes went way down but that crimes of passion didn't change significantly.
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Jun 5, 2016 06:13
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Ytlaya posted:Oh, maybe I mis-remembered that, though how the gently caress would he even know who to kill in that case? Did he just kill anyone that was arrested and accused of a bad crime? Either way, it still seems like that wouldn't be much different than a mandatory death penalty, especially in a country like Japan where being accused usually = being convicted. Keep in mind he also had a prosecutor working for him near the end.
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Jun 5, 2016 06:19
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One of L's big points about Light is he obviously has a childish sense of justice. I loving love Death note, warts and all.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:20
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Going back to Platinum End for a sec, a poster said the translation was bad? Do others agree? It's just not something I can probably tell on my own. The Viz translations I've read in the past seemed good but what do I know.
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Jun 5, 2016 10:12
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oh i was talking about the random scanlations i read, if Viz is doing an actual release those are probably fine
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Jun 5, 2016 16:52
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Viz is doing a thing with PE where they sell the chapters a la carte for 99 cents as they're released, which is a little strange. It feels like there's got to be a smoother way to do that through a subscription model or something. At least it's only a monthly (?) release. I saw some really long running series being sold like that on Amazon and I felt bad for the person that has to go down the line and click "buy" 500 times to get all of it and then go to their device and do the same thing.
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Jun 5, 2016 18:04
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PringleCreamEgg posted:It also mentioned that the crime rate of planned crimes went way down but that crimes of passion didn't change significantly. I'm thinking of a part very near the end where they flat out say that crime had been reduced to 1/7 of what it was before, and I'm pretty sure that 6/7 of all crimes are planned, particularly the sort of crimes that Light was punishing.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:22
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Criminals always overestimate their cleverness and assume they won't get caught. The threat of punishment rarely if ever stops someone from planning a crime because crimes are always planned under the assumption that they won't get caught. People who are afraid of getting caught wouldn't commit crimes anyway. The only effect Light's reign of terror would have on crime is that they'd wear masks more often.
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Jun 6, 2016 00:32
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Clarste posted:Criminals always overestimate their cleverness and assume they won't get caught. The threat of punishment rarely if ever stops someone from planning a crime because crimes are always planned under the assumption that they won't get caught. People who are afraid of getting caught wouldn't commit crimes anyway. The only effect Light's reign of terror would have on crime is that they'd wear masks more often. Except that assumes they know how he's killing people, which they don't.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:14
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I'd assume that crime was down, but so was everything else. I think just going outside in general was down considering people keep dropping dead seemingly at random, since Light is the one who decides what a crime warranting death is and that spectrum broadens very, very rapidly. There's a difference between "less crimes being committed" and "people are afraid to step a single toe out of line in case a magical death god smites the poo poo out of them". That powder keg was probably going to go off in a big way if things continued in that direction though. It's not like Light was a bastion of restraint or anything. Did that fucker just cut me off in traffic, I hope he likes burning to death.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:16
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One of the first things I thought while reading DN for the first time was "he should have some cult follow him. It only makes sense." And sure enough, later on he did. Also like the part where the US President was Kira's bitch in the manga. I think I recall hearing that was just cut from the anime? Point is just that Light wielded considerable power. Everyone was afraid of him and for good reason.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:30
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RatHat posted:Except that assumes they know how he's killing people, which they don't. It assumes that they've noticed that only criminals with their faces on TV get killed. Which shouldn't be all that hard to notice, given how many pre-existing criminals there are who would never be killed. Point is, Light wasn't actually any good at catching criminals. He only killed people who were either already caught or known fugitives.
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Jun 6, 2016 02:22
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NikkolasKing posted:2. This one I'm less certain about because I don't live there nor do I claim to be an expert but Japan apparently believes in guilty until proven innocent even more than most people here in the States do. If you're in jail, it's because you deserve to be there and any trial stuff later on is immaterial. And I know it's "officially" innocent until proven guilty but I hope everyone here knows that's not true in the court of public opinion. I feel like Death Note would have been a much better series if it critiqued attitudes like that more explicitly. It feels like the author wasn't interested in exploring the moral issues raised by the premise and just made Light completely evil right off the bat so he could get straight to the mind battles. I think Near's hypocritical friendship speech (Mello was a murderer too, but he was conventionally selfish instead of a megalomaniac, therefore Near is proud of having his help?) showed that although the author realized intuitively that Light's actions were wrong, he wasn't really able to articulate why they were wrong. Death Note also seems to equate being a decent person with being naive. I only read the first few chapters of Platinum End, but in general, it seems that the author has developed a much more mature and nuanced moral outlook since writing Death Note, which is good.
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Jun 6, 2016 02:36
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That's interesting, because the end of bakuman was incredibly childish and silly.
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Jun 6, 2016 02:54
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Silver2195 posted:Death Note also seems to equate being a decent person with being naive. I do have to agree with this.. L is sort of a classic Sherlock Holmes type ie. I'm fighting evil and rIghting wrongs because it stimulates my big brain and not because I actually care all that much about helping people. In contrast, the most unambiguously good person in the series, Light's father Soichiro, is an idiot who made me so mad when he refused to just shoot Mello. He had every cause and legal and moral obligation. quote:I only read the first few chapters of Platinum End, but in general, it seems that the author has developed a much more mature and nuanced moral outlook since writing Death Note, which is good. I have heard some people say they like the new MC.
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Jun 6, 2016 03:18
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Lights father is the only main character who isn't presented as a sociopath. He was actually principled. He also contrasts with light in that when given the opportunity to play judge jury and executioner he declines.
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Jun 6, 2016 03:26
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