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Yawgmoth posted:I think Beast wins the award for "most squandered potential" in any WoD game. Really if all games were as daring as Beast the industry would be a legitimate art form already.
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Jun 4, 2016 20:30
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Yawgmoth posted:I think Beast wins the award for "most squandered potential" in any WoD game. What else does Geist have left to claim to fame?
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Jun 5, 2016 01:20
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Xelkelvos posted:What else does Geist have left to claim to fame? The best game to allow me to play out my 90's fantasies of being the Crow?
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Jun 5, 2016 02:10
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What's the issue with Geist? I read the quickstart demo thingy and it seemed pretty solid. It seems like it'd be pretty easy to run as Law and Order: Spectral Victims Unit
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Jun 5, 2016 05:37
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Geist lacks a real drive to do anything, lacks decent antagonists, has no real methods of interacting with your geist, and the manifestations waffle violently between being useless or too niche to ludicrously overpowered. Then there's the whole krewe binding thing where your geists suddenly reinvent themselves because reasons.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:48
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Rubix Squid posted:Geist lacks a real drive to do anything, lacks decent antagonists, has no real methods of interacting with your geist, and the manifestations waffle violently between being useless or too niche to ludicrously overpowered. Then there's the whole krewe binding thing where your geists suddenly reinvent themselves because reasons. I see. The lack of Geist-Host interaction seems especially disappointing. :\ I'm still proud of "Spectral Victims Unit" though 
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Jun 5, 2016 05:50
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Xelkelvos posted:What else does Geist have left to claim to fame? FrostyPox posted:Law and Order: Spectral Victims Unit
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Jun 5, 2016 05:59
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I don't know when exactly they'll be released, but I'm considering holding off on buying Changeling and Geist until they get their 2e versions. However, I don't know if that will be this year or next. And I'd rather not spend money on something only for it to get upgraded several months down the road. Would getting the 1e versions of said games within the month be risky/a waste?
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Jun 5, 2016 07:20
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Rubix Squid posted:Then there's the whole krewe binding thing where your geists suddenly reinvent themselves because reasons. That was the part that always confused me. I felt like I had missed an explanation, or it was a reference to some inspirational media I'd never heard of. I think in the play example for that, one of the geists reveals that it's actually been the ghost of the Marquis de Sade all along, while another one is the past-projection of some future Mayan space god, and you're supposed to be able to pass those same reinvented geist identities to future krewe members, and it was all so gonzo that I had no idea what was going on or how to reproduce it in a game. Is the Sade geist actually the ghost of a real historical person, or did they or the sin-eater just kinda make that up? Does everyone involved know that it's made up?
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Jun 5, 2016 07:24
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The other thing with Geist is that creating your own pack/coterie equivalent basically involves inventing a cult with its own religion that you follow, including like a creation myth and so on, which a) is kind of dumb and limiting and b) is way too much goddamned work for a casual game.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:31
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Libertad! posted:I don't know when exactly they'll be released, but I'm considering holding off on buying Changeling and Geist until they get their 2e versions. However, I don't know if that will be this year or next. And I'd rather not spend money on something only for it to get upgraded several months down the road. Geist, I don't think they've announced plans to give it a second edition at all so far. But the first is kind of hard to recommend, when anything you can do in it, you could probably do better with any other games already.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:32
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Kellsterik posted:That was the part that always confused me. I felt like I had missed an explanation, or it was a reference to some inspirational media I'd never heard of. That's just Persona. I remember reading that part and I immediately flipped to the Inspiration section and yep, Persona 3 was right there on the list
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Jun 5, 2016 07:36
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Geist, I don't think they've announced plans to give it a second edition at all so far. But the first is kind of hard to recommend, when anything you can do in it, you could probably do better with any other games already. Geist, like Beast, is a bit of wasted potential, but is at least playable without being uncomfortable due to its themes (unless ghosts and relishing life are questionable). As mentioned above, there's not really much of a driving force for players as presented by the game and the whole thing is rather ill-defined beyond having to do with the undead which most splats can actually fiddle with in some small way or, in the case of Mage, gently caress with without regard. Presumably, Sin-Eaters would have a similar role with the undead as Werewolves do with Spirits. That's not really the case (iirc) so that's one less avenue of direction. One other thing is that it's also one of the less horror ridden splats and has a bit more hope to it given that PCs literally got a second chance at life.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:53
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I mentioned this over in F&F but in terms of 'disappointing' things, as much as I enjoy Mage, it feels like the Astral Realms as represented in CofD are pretty drat cool and could have been their own gameline, but Mage gobbled most of it up for itself. Changeling and Beast get a couple of little pieces of it. If a non-mage tried going deep and hitting the Anima Mundi they'd basically get told "Nope, go away, this is wizardland unless you wanna take regular damage" and then get really confused once they saw the... I forget the name, but the things that are the embodiments of the Arcana that live near the Abyss. You could have a cool game about fighting dream-things, and bringing dream-powers out into the real world, but that's Mage territory now. And Beast I guess with its nightmare-y powers. And Beasts would be a good antagonist for these imaginary psychonauts, giving people nightmares about You Are Meat or whatever and Psychonauts could be all "no let's give them nice dreams about flying and love".
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Jun 5, 2016 10:05
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My understanding is that they're trying to make the Astral Realms a more coherent thing in 2E across gamelines, so it's more clear that Changeling dreamscaping is happening in the Oneiros with consistent rules for example. So hopefully Changeling 2E will have space for what you're describing since 1E had lots of dreamshaping content. Personally, I'm hoping for some expansion on the little sop of crossover in the Astral Realms book that lets Prometheans play around in there.
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Jun 5, 2016 10:21
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Kellsterik posted:My understanding is that they're trying to make the Astral Realms a more coherent thing in 2E across gamelines, so it's more clear that Changeling dreamscaping is happening in the Oneiros with consistent rules for example. So hopefully Changeling 2E will have space for what you're describing since 1E had lots of dreamshaping content. Personally, I'm hoping for some expansion on the little sop of crossover in the Astral Realms book that lets Prometheans play around in there. Actually, it's the opposite - Changeling has never used the Astral (the Oneiros is the inside of someone's soul, not the inside of their dreams) and still doesn't in 2e. Both editions of Mage have normal dreams as the "surface layer" of the Astral, and it's here that Changelings play, like speedboat pilots where everyone else is a scuba diver. Changeling 2e doesn't upend that. In truth, it becomes an issue of wordcount. Beast can use the Astral because the Begotten's corner of the Temenos is the gameline's main "overworld", but even then it's going to be until Beast's sourcebooks before the Primordial Dream gets fully described. If Changelings did use the Astral, you'd probably have to lose the Hedge from the game. And no one wants that. As Mage dev, I've been keen for years to not have the Astral end up like the Hedge is, confined to one gameline while the others ignore it. I suggested Rip The Gates in Demon, I helped Matt build the Primordial Dream in Beast (and I'm gonna be writing expansion material for it in the future) and if Deviants have any astral travel powers, they'll use the Astral rules common to Mage and Beast. I'm not just happy to share my toys, I'm volunteering them. But in Changeling's case, it doesn't use it.
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Jun 5, 2016 11:00
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bewilderment posted:I mentioned this over in F&F but in terms of 'disappointing' things, as much as I enjoy Mage, it feels like the Astral Realms as represented in CofD are pretty drat cool and could have been their own gameline, but Mage gobbled most of it up for itself. Changeling and Beast get a couple of little pieces of it. If a non-mage tried going deep and hitting the Anima Mundi they'd basically get told "Nope, go away, this is wizardland unless you wanna take regular damage" and then get really confused once they saw the... I forget the name, but the things that are the embodiments of the Arcana that live near the Abyss. The thing is that mage being gnostic and actually putting your quest for enlightenment front and center doesn't have a realm it can reach, by definition. Return to the divine isn't just the end game it's the removal from play. But as noted, The astral's more an everyone playground that at the moment Mage has the best toys for reaching because it has no dedicated "Do poo poo in the astral" splat besides....ugh beast. The way the underworld has geist and spirit world has werewolf. And Mages by definition poo poo in everyone else's backyards.
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Jun 5, 2016 17:54
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Libertad! posted:Would getting the 1e versions of said games within the month be risky/a waste? Get Changeling. Changeling: the Lost first edition has an excellent corebook with a lot of strong flavor that quickly draws out what's cool about changelings and Faerie, how versatile the things of Faerie and changed by Faerie are, and what life is like for individual changelings. (The same quality is the number one thing I love about Demon: the Descent. As much as it has a lot of other cool things going for it, the way the corebook hits on all points is key to making it such a good game.) I have mixed feelings about the large volumes of material previewed for Changeling 2e so far. There are some good ideas (the altered Contract structure, sealings, changelings' new intrinsic ability to escape bonds), some bad ones (the long and comparatively narrowing shadow cast by the new Seemings over every character, 2e's unnecessary habit of reskinning Virtue and Vice for almost everybody), and a lot of stuff that feels changed just for the sake of added detail without actually adding much to play. It remains to be seen how the flavor text will come out, but it seems unlikely so far to match the bar set by the 1e core. At the very least, the 1e core set a pretty high bar to match in general, so I think even if you end up with two edition cores, you'll get something good out of having the first edition book. Geist, on the other hand, had a pretty mediocre core and pretty lacking mechanics. Wait for a second edition; it'll definitely be a good while until one comes out, but a second edition still has a chance to majorly improve on and realize Geist as a game of its own.
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Jun 5, 2016 19:56
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Deviant The ???: Me Still holding out hope for "Deviant: the Art".
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Jun 5, 2016 21:02
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I love the idea of mix-and-matching kiths and Seemings, and the idea of your Seeming representing how you escaped Faerie is not without merit; it certainly drives home how much escaping the abuse shapes you, and is an interesting metaphor. But I too am a bit dubious about these write-ups we are getting regarding them. They seem a bit too "action hero from a AAA videogame" for a tragic game like Changeling.
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Jun 5, 2016 21:09
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Mixing and Matching Kiths and Seemings was a fairly common thing iirc, so making it part of the rules rather than something houseruled or taxed makes sense.
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Jun 5, 2016 21:35
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paradoxGentleman posted:But I too am a bit dubious about these write-ups we are getting regarding them. They seem a bit too "action hero from a AAA videogame" for a tragic game like Changeling. Conversely, I feel like 2e is in danger of hammering the abuse metaphor so hard that it hurts the game's usefulness for dark urban fairy tale fantasy.
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Jun 5, 2016 21:37
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Rand Brittain posted:Conversely, I feel like 2e is in danger of hammering the abuse metaphor so hard that it hurts the game's usefulness for dark urban fairy tale fantasy. Agreed, it feels like it's kind of bought into its own hype and forgotten that there were other things that made it interesting.
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Jun 5, 2016 21:38
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Well from chatting to David B in person at the UK Games Expo, I am excited about Deviant. And that is all I am saying 
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Jun 5, 2016 21:39
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Kavak posted:Agreed, it feels like it's kind of bought into its own hype and forgotten that there were other things that made it interesting. I don't think it's really a hype thing so much as "when a game's subtext becomes text, the game eats itself."
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Jun 5, 2016 21:43
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As a dummy who often misses subtext, I appreciate when it is spelled out for me. Maybe not repeatedly, but I am pretty sure that 1e also spelled out outright that it was a game about abuse.
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Jun 5, 2016 21:47
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paradoxGentleman posted:As a dummy who often misses subtext, I appreciate when it is spelled out for me. Maybe not repeatedly, but I am pretty sure that 1e also spelled out outright that it was a game about abuse. It's not really using the word "abuse" that's the problem so much as baking your response to abuse into the mechanics so that you have to actively work around it if you just want to run a game of modern fantasy that isn't really so much about those elements.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:02
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dr_ether posted:Well from chatting to David B in person at the UK Games Expo, I am excited about Deviant. And that is all I am saying I was excited just from the pitch! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iwBM_YB1sE
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Jun 5, 2016 22:10
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Honestly geist could go in a couple really cool directions. It just didn't in its first book. Rereading the whole thing was a little more eye opening than the first time.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:11
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not really using the word "abuse" that's the problem so much as baking your response to abuse into the mechanics so that you have to actively work around it if you just want to run a game of modern fantasy that isn't really so much about those elements. Yeah, that's my major concern with the 2e Seemings. They seem relatively narrow definitions of the response to the Durance to begin with, and the mechanical importance of their curses and blessings feels magnified to the point of being conspicuous. Changeling is a game about survivors of traumatic experiences, but it's also got dangerous tricksters, charming yet ominous encounters, and a good balance of whimsy, severity, and groundedness. The overhaul of Contracts seemed enough to me to give definition to one's Seeming identity, but the impact on Clarity as implemented seems distracting. Not to mention, baking the response to the durance into the Clarity rules, frozen in the form of an unchanging Seeming, paints changelings in general as stalled or stunted in their response to the durance. 1e Changeling encompassed characters who may have been fundamentally changed by their durance, but had grown since the initial trauma and wore their mien as a history of where they came from rather than as old and persistent wounds. It's an odd move for a game that occasionally fights to distinguish itself as being about survivors rather than victims.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:12
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Nomadic Scholar posted:Honestly geist could go in a couple really cool directions. It just didn't in its first book. Rereading the whole thing was a little more eye opening than the first time. Like really, if you wanted you could basically rewrite Harmony to Synergy with a different set of sins and swapping the penalties/bonuses/conditions for getting into and out of the Underworld, and you've already written significantly toothier "staying in accordance with your ghost-buddy and the perils thereof" rules than you had before. Honestly I know we bag a lot on Geist for being "this other game, but less," but if you just...rip off a lot of Wtf 2e's mechanics and call Bound the ghost-cop-predators of the ecto-ecosystem, you're 4/5 of the way to a good game with reasons to exist.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:15
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Nomadic Scholar posted:Honestly geist could go in a couple really cool directions. It just didn't in its first book. Rereading the whole thing was a little more eye opening than the first time. Unlike Beast which threw a lot of its potential into the toilet, Geist mostly left its potential up in the air so it could definitely turn out great if its potential is properly realized
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Jun 5, 2016 22:39
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Is What We Do in the Shadows still the nVampire-est movie made? Amusingly, changes to Werewolf in 2e now also make it more accurate to Werewolf than it was before, although that will probably change with the upcoming sequel, We're Wolves. I like using it in comparison to Underworld as a general tone of oWoD vs CofD. For Mage I just used the Ascension Storyteller Screen vs an Invisibles cover. I don't know if there's a more Mage-y bit of media than The Invisibles.
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Jun 6, 2016 04:18
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Sandman, maybe.
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Jun 6, 2016 05:12
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I Am Just a Box posted:Yeah, that's my major concern with the 2e Seemings. They seem relatively narrow definitions of the response to the Durance to begin with, and the mechanical importance of their curses and blessings feels magnified to the point of being conspicuous. Changeling is a game about survivors of traumatic experiences, but it's also got dangerous tricksters, charming yet ominous encounters, and a good balance of whimsy, severity, and groundedness. The overhaul of Contracts seemed enough to me to give definition to one's Seeming identity, but the impact on Clarity as implemented seems distracting. I like you, you're cool. C:tL is an amazing game just to spitball with players and let them define the story, rather than trying to run "the prince/alpha hands you plotball X, do you want to replace them or not?" for the millionth time. The first edition is an amazingly popular game, to the point where they won every single poll they were featured on in the recent Dark Eras kickstarter. 2e doesn't seem to be doing any more than fitting what exists into the GMC madlib format, so you'll have to wait and see if it works for you and your group.
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Jun 6, 2016 17:54
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Poltergrift posted:Mildly off-topic: if a Demon makes a pledge with a changeling with the Stricture "I won't lie to you," are they essentially getting free pledge points for that Stricture, since there's no way that that Demon can violate the pledge any way but intentionally? My instincts say yes, since supernatural truth perception reads Demons however they want it to do, but would it fall under the heading of "you don't get credit while making a pledge if the stricture is impossible to violate"? Hm. Breaking an oath while also benefitting from it. Demons can into Hubris and accidentally the abyss! Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 20:16
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This link seems just as useful for Mage 2e as the original was for 1e. https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?783504-A-capability-based-analysis-by-Path-Mage-the-Awakening-2e Great for players and GMs to know 'at a glance' what any given Mage can do right from the get go.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:46
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You find inspiration for WoD games in the strangest places http://www.clickhole.com/article/8-characters-i-created-teach-my-kid-about-dental-h-4429
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Jun 7, 2016 18:53
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Kavak posted:You find inspiration for WoD games in the strangest places Hysterical and horrifying in equal measure! 
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Jun 7, 2016 18:59
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http://www.theonion.com/article/20000-sacrificed-in-annual-blood-offering-to-corpo-18542
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Jun 7, 2016 20:32
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