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suicidesteve posted:The real question is why were they $25-30 before people thought UWx control was playable? I think they shot up when that guy won the modern SCG playing Nahiri in an UWR deck. Before that, it was around $10-15.
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Jun 4, 2016 23:28
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BJPaskoff posted:https://twitch.tv/NYSEvintage Speaking of which, I'm moving to NY next week and looking for a new FNM watering hole. (Preferably in Manhattan.) Recommendations?
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Jun 4, 2016 23:42
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Yawgmoth posted:An effect like "whenever a werewolf you control would transform, you may counter that ability." would go a long way, I bet. This already exists though, except it's not optional.
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Jun 4, 2016 23:47
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Count Bleck posted:Legendary Werewolf that's a lord for the respective side depending on if it's transformed or not? I think it can be better than a slightly better Mayor of Avabruck
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Jun 4, 2016 23:49
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Angry Grimace posted:I keep sitting around trying to picture what a Legendary Werewolf would have to look like to make Wolves playable as a tribe in standard and not just as commander garbage bait. Hmm, human side let you flash werewolves (so you don't get behind for taking turns off to flip things), and be either resilient to removal or has some kind of "when it leaves play" effect when it gets hit with removal, and it's werewolf side have a Kalitas like effect where your opponents creatures die you get werewolf tokens or hell even the actual card similar to an Olivia Voldaren's effect. Also give him a green Fight ability as an activated ability. This sounds alot like a Blue Green Werewolf hmm. Also print a more traditional lord like Mayor maybe? Also a playable decent costing Red removal spell. So basically nothing that wizards would ever do.
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Jun 4, 2016 23:55
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Rinkles posted:Sounds like Muller's deck, unless it's actually playing Jar haha, this deck is 7-0!
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Jun 4, 2016 23:57
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Ask Me For Warez posted:I think it can be better than a slightly better Mayor of Avabruck Mayor is a vintage superstar though?
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Jun 5, 2016 00:08
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anglachel posted:Hmm, human side let you flash werewolves (so you don't get behind for taking turns off to flip things), and be either resilient to removal or has some kind of "when it leaves play" effect when it gets hit with removal, and it's werewolf side have a Kalitas like effect where your opponents creatures die you get werewolf tokens or hell even the actual card similar to an Olivia Voldaren's effect. Also give him a green Fight ability as an activated ability. This sounds alot like a Blue Green Werewolf hmm. I was seriously thinking it would have to be a one-sided card to actually be good. The problem with Werewolves is that they're inconsistent as gently caress because you can't reliably flip them, so the best card would probably just be a Werewolf with an ability like 0: Transform target non-Human werewolf. But it wouldn't make much sense for a Werewolf Lord to not be a DFC, obviously.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:24
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AlternateNu posted:Speaking of which, I'm moving to NY next week and looking for a new FNM watering hole. (Preferably in Manhattan.) Recommendations? Montasy is in the city but 20 sided in Williamsburg is better. I've never been to geekery hq in Astoria but word on the street is that they are great.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:44
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Angry Grimace posted:I was seriously thinking it would have to be a one-sided card to actually be good. The problem with Werewolves is that they're inconsistent as gently caress because you can't reliably flip them, so the best card would probably just be a Werewolf with an ability like 0: Transform target non-Human werewolf. But it wouldn't make much sense for a Werewolf Lord to not be a DFC, obviously. Give it a day side that flips humans into werewolves on command (including itself), and a night side that makes werewolves super buff.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:01
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InterrupterJones posted::mtgfinance: this needs to be an emote unless  counts
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Jun 5, 2016 03:26
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Can we please talk about vintage superstar, heavyweight champion of the world, The Bear With Upside, Mayoooooooooor of Avabruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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Jun 5, 2016 03:41
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Someone who has access to premium please dump the tom Ross article. I don't have access on my phone. Tom is so dreamy. 
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Jun 5, 2016 04:08
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I like that there can be multiple mayors of avabruck. I'm the mayor, you're the mayor, we're all the mayor in avabruck.
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Jun 5, 2016 04:12
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Babylon Astronaut posted:I like that there can be multiple mayors of avabruck. I'm the mayor, you're the mayor, we're all the mayor in avabruck. The only qualification is that, when night falls, that window is gonna break.
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Jun 5, 2016 04:20
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The Defenestration of Avabruck.
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Jun 5, 2016 04:39
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Reminder that Maro thinks the super cool interesting flavor thing about werewolves is that they go flip flip back and forth and that's spoooOOOoooOOOooky. It's not the fact that they are freaked out wolf people, that might be kinda cool but it's secondary to how cool the FLIPPING is. So if you think werewolves would be cooler or more fun if they were just wolfpeople all the time, then I'm afraid you just don't know how to extract maximum coolitude from your fantasy game concepts. Really, when you think about it, a werewolf lord should make werewolves flip MORE often, not less. Make them flip back and forth after every phase, if not every time priority passes. Now you've really cranked the werewolf flavor up to 11.
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Jun 5, 2016 04:42
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:The only qualification is that, when night falls, that window is gonna break. Window breaking theme deck with Mayor, Mardu Shadowspear, Relentless Dead Anything else?
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Jun 5, 2016 05:04
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JerryLee posted:Reminder that Maro thinks the super cool interesting flavor thing about werewolves is that they go flip flip back and forth and that's spoooOOOoooOOOooky. It's not the fact that they are freaked out wolf people, that might be kinda cool but it's secondary to how cool the FLIPPING is. So if you think werewolves would be cooler or more fun if they were just wolfpeople all the time, then I'm afraid you just don't know how to extract maximum coolitude from your fantasy game concepts. Uh, yeah, that makes sense. I'm not sure what exactly you think isn't completely sane about transform capturing the flavour of werewolves better than just making them big creatures with wolves on the art.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:09
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Alris posted:The Defenestration of Avabruck. The werewolves of Innistrad and the Mardu of Tarkir gotta get together sometime and bond over their mutual hatred of windowpanes.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:12
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Yeah uh like sure there are other ways to represent transformation but werewolves that don't transform are literally just either really buff peeps or weird wolf things and both of those things just aren't particularly interesting
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Jun 5, 2016 05:25
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Werewolves that don't transform are either called bears or furries, depending on which side of the ~kindred animal soul~ spectrum they fall on. I like a good bear, but they aren't werewolves. Oh guess this guy ^^ had the same thought. 
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Jun 5, 2016 05:30
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They even did "werewolves who don't transform" in AVR (and the one callback in Silverfur Partisan). It was boring as hell.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:33
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sarmhan posted:They even did "werewolves who don't transform" in AVR (and the one callback in Silverfur Partisan). It was boring as hell. What about a werewolf Lord that gives you a bonus whenever creatures you control flip?
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Jun 5, 2016 05:39
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I've sold monorails to Kessig, Trostad, and North Avabruck
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Jun 5, 2016 06:07
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Dr. Stab posted:Uh, yeah, that makes sense. I'm not sure what exactly you think isn't completely sane about transform capturing the flavour of werewolves better than just making them big creatures with wolves on the art. Allstone posted:Yeah uh like sure there are other ways to represent transformation but werewolves that don't transform are literally just either really buff peeps or weird wolf things and both of those things just aren't particularly interesting Well, when I say it's dumb that Maro thinks that flipping is more resonant than the whole having a hulked out wolf monster thing, I'm chiefly saying I have a problem with the belief that the transformation is so important that it needs to be mechanically represented via a flip mechanic. Obviously it can be understood that the werewolf card is a transformed human as far as the fiction is concerned. But when you look at people's wishlists for the mechanics of the werewolf lord and a huge chunk of it is essentially 'please make us not have to deal with this transform poo poo as much' then I think it's clear that (some) people, in their capacity as planeswalking wizards, would like to just be able to summon the wolfperson part of the whole thing and have fewer hoops to jump through. However, if you and people like you truly enjoy the mechanical aspect of the transformation obsession, then I am unironically glad for your happiness and hope you can continue to find happiness in Magic going forward, even as I also hope that I will be happier than I have been. Namaste. e: I may have left myself open to misinterpretation when I said 'wolfpeople all the time' in my original post. I chiefly meant mechanically, though I wouldn't have clutched my Vorthosian pearls if it had just been all Wolfir on Innistrad now, either.
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Jun 5, 2016 06:10
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Okay yeah that's fair choosing the day/night mechanic as the flip trigger was kind of arbitrary (it was a leftover from another mechanic iirc). I think dfcs were a good way to do it though, because being able to have two arts really helps contrasting to like monstrosity and renown which just feel kind of tepid. Maybe the legendary can alter the flip condition? I'm sure at some point they'll do werewolves with a different flip mechanic at some point, but I'm guessing at least the next time it'll probably still be dfcs
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Jun 5, 2016 06:27
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Transformations, werewolf or otherwise, being represented by flipping into an entire second card is one of the coolest ideas, in both execution and design, that exists in this entire goddamn card game I'm pretty sure that the majority of players agree; the fact that you don't doesn't make MaRo's excitement over it wrong or mistaken. Like, the entire idea behind werewolves is that they're people who turn into huge wolfmen. Grotesque transformation is a pretty loving significant theme in pretty much every genre of horror. Making them a race of furries and saying "they used to be people" is nowhere near as effective at conveying "holy poo poo look at these werewolves" than actually having a mechanic that directly depicts the transformation from human to monster. E: messing with the trigger is a very different question, and one which I support: something like "you choose which side your dudes are on during your end step" is probably both overpowered and fun as hell.
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Jun 5, 2016 06:28
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They actually tried to use threshold as the flip condition in judgment, but it meant the card never flipped back, judgment was actually before they decided it was acceptable to have Human as a creature type(they only decided that was acceptable in Eighth edition), the card was pretty bad, and the art didn't have a thing which looked remotely humanlike, so all in all it was pretty lame and I don't think most people remember the card.
Elyv fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 06:34
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GeneX posted:Transformations, werewolf or otherwise, being represented by flipping into an entire second card is one of the coolest ideas, in both execution and design, that exists in this entire goddamn card game Well, the "entire idea behind" zombies is that they're once-living but now dead and partially decayed people who were reanimated out of the ground, and that's a significant part of their horror, but most of the time I can just cast a card that resembles them in that reanimated-out-of-the-ground state and not have to deal with a front face that depicts some or all of that person's life, untimely death, and funeral service. This sort of goes back to your first sentence: yes, DFCs can be pretty awesome but that doesn't mean it's awesome for all, or even most, cards of a certain type to be DFCs. Loyal Cathar is insanely cool flavor as a one-of, but surely everyone acknowledges it'd be unbearably tedious and stupid for every Zombie on the plane of Innistrad to need to follow that sort of mini-character arc. Same with Chosen of Markov for Vampires. If there's one argument to be made in favor of werewolves being all-DFC it's that, unlike most if not all of the aforementioned zombies and vampires, they have the ability to wreck poo poo for the night and then go right back to work the next morning (presumably beginning by repairing the front door). That's not an illegitimate thing to keep in mind, but for me at least, the cost-benefit analysis between flavor and functional appeal doesn't favor the continually transforming DFC option. Maybe have a comparatively small number of DFC werewolves to represent the ones who keep trying to live as members of human society as opposed to just running away and living as monsters in the forest?
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Jun 5, 2016 06:47
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Nah the entire idea behind zombies is that they're undead, which is really well represented by like Gravecrawler etc. being really easy to get back out of the graveyard. DFCs really work for werewolves and, like you said, not that great for zombies, which is why SOI brought back a bunch of DFC werewolves and literally 0 DFC zombies, instead making the zombies do stuff about dying and coming back. Like they're bringing stuff back because people liked it. Also there's nothing saying DFC werewolves need to continually transform - they've said they'd have done monstrous as DFCs if it didn't cost more to print. E: Like nothing's stopping them from doing the next werewolves as "Threshold - {G/R}: Transform ~. Activate this ability only if seven or more cards are in your graveyard." and it still saves them a bunch of room on ~ gets +2/-1 shite as well as adding a bunch of textbox space and the art change. is that good fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 07:25
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Werewolves are more known for transforming than vampires or zombies because they regularly transform back from wolf to human. A single werewolf can transform several times in a story, but few stories feature vampires or zombies turning back into ordinary humans. The actual mechanical trigger for transforming them feels pretty arbitrary though. It doesn't really have a clear flavor, and "don't cast anything during your turn" clashes a bit with the RG Aggro approach that werewolves seem like they're meant to take.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:46
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Allstone posted:Nah the entire idea behind zombies is that they're undead, which is really well represented by like Gravecrawler etc. being really easy to get back out of the graveyard. I'm really not sure what your idea for "undeath" as a resonant concept is if it doesn't refer back in some way to the previously living human and the presumptive horror of seeing that flesh unnaturally animated and coming at you. Like, if the only relevant attribute for undead is 'you can summon them out of the ground over and over' then they might as well be some sort of autochthonous earth elemental or something, no? You probably didn't actually mean to argue towards that, I know, but what I'm trying to illustrate is that the corrupted/transformed state of the undead is usually quite relevant to the overall concept. And even then the majority of Zombies (even on Innistrad, and even in SOI) don't repeatedly self-reanimate, it's just an implied flavor concept that doesn't need to be mechanically represented on every card. Which is basically what I'm arguing should be the case for werewolves. quote:Also there's nothing saying DFC werewolves need to continually transform - they've said they'd have done monstrous as DFCs if it didn't cost more to print. Agreed to an extent. If they had done them with an activated or reliably triggering transformation (not necessarily implying that the werewolf themselves can control the transformation, but that you as the wizard have an assumed ability to cast a permanent Moonmist, the same way as a player casting a Zombie card is assumed to be casting a reanimation spell) and only transforming once, that would have been a lot better than the current implementation. Not to say perfect, but maybe a decent compromise with the transformation-obsessed lobby.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:51
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"Break the glass and kick some rear end" is universal across all planes and colors.Elyv posted:They actually tried to use threshold as the flip condition in judgment, but it meant the card never flipped back, judgment was actually before they decided it was acceptable to have Human as a creature type(they only decided that was acceptable in Eighth edition), the card was pretty bad, and the art didn't have a thing which looked remotely humanlike, so all in all it was pretty lame and I don't think most people remember the card. Everyone remembers werebear, it was in a great deck. Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 07:59
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JerryLee posted:I'm really not sure what your idea for "undeath" as a resonant concept is if it doesn't refer back in some way to the previously living human and the presumptive horror of seeing that flesh unnaturally animated and coming at you. Like, if the only relevant attribute for undead is 'you can summon them out of the ground over and over' then they might as well be some sort of autochthonous earth elemental or something, no? You probably didn't actually mean to argue towards that, I know, but what I'm trying to illustrate is that the corrupted/transformed state of the undead is usually quite relevant to the overall concept. The former human aspect is easily conveyed solely through art; I can look at the art of relentless dead and see 'oh gross this used to be a person but now they're all squishy and rotting'. The human aspect of a werewolf is pretty difficult to see without just having more space for the art. You could identify that Endless Ranks of the Dead does Zombie poo poo without reading the card; same goes for most cards. Greater Werewolf is probably doing Werewolf poo poo, but then you've locked yourself in to making every werewolf art ever mid-transformation. Otherwise, you'd struggle to get a rando player to get any implied flavour from the non-DFC werewolves (Lesser and Treacherous) like there's not a lot separating them from if Tarkir Ainok went to the gym more. Like they don't need to have mechanical stuff mixed in, but INN sold like hotcakes and DFC werewolves probably focus-grouped super well so I can't see how you'd convince corporate to do it non-DFC for a while E: like DFCs apparently cost a fair amount more they wouldn't do them if they didn't work pretty great at rubbing the good tummyfeels for most players is that good fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 08:12
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Werewolf lord that says: Front -At the beginning of each upkeep, you may transform target werewolf. Back -Whenever a werewolf you control transforms, you may have it deal damage to equal to its power to target creature or player 3 mana 3/3 that transforms into a 5/4 Flavorwise, have it be the Ur-werewolf. The source of lycanthropy on innistrad. Two of them transforming at once is lethal, which is a good justification for it being made legendary. Gensuki fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 13:00
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Judd Stackington posted:I've sold monorails to Kessig, Trostad, and North Avabruck And by gum it put them on the map. 
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Jun 5, 2016 13:08
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Gensuki posted:Werewolf lord that says: A 3 mana 5/4 that if it survives a turn, deals 5 damage to a target?
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Jun 5, 2016 13:49
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Dr. Stab posted:A 3 mana 5/4 that if it survives a turn, deals 5 damage to a target? Make it "another werewolf" and a 5/3 transformed, and it wouldn't be broken.
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Jun 5, 2016 13:58
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It's gonna be a W/G werewolf that pumps toughness and shits sheep tokens or some such dumb thing because it tested well with casuals.
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Jun 5, 2016 14:04
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