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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Found this http://darkest-hour-game.com/aar/2014-MCWAR-WWII/Barrick_WW2ExAAR-2014-04-15.pdf This deserves more love. My favourite part was how the ability to easily and quickly view formations and resources in the fronts meant the Joint Staff was constantly tempted to meddle with and micromanage the theatre commands. I'd love to be an Expert Controller running Japan or Germany in an exercise.
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Jun 5, 2016 10:56
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Drone posted:I don't think you understand what fundamental design means. Well then that was my mistake, because what I meant was Drone posted:it came out half-baked and there's a bunch of poo poo missing. Though there are features in there that have no business existing. Everything to do with tile management, for instance.
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Jun 5, 2016 11:01
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Autonomous Monster posted:Though there are features in there that have no business existing. Everything to do with tile management, for instance. What's wrong with tile management? I won't claim there aren't any problems, but what are your personal issues with it?
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Jun 5, 2016 11:25
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Gort posted:I have some concerns that smaller countries don't build armies (see El Salvador and Bhutan streams) Those don't build armies because they literally don't have the manpower to build armies.
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Jun 5, 2016 11:31
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Drone posted:I don't think you understand what fundamental design means. I don't think Stellaris is fundamentally terribly interesting. In fact it's a very rote copy of other space 4x games in many many ways but done worse. Yes, there are random species but it doesn't amount to much- the bonuses aren't terribly significant one way or the other and most of them tend to not be very interesting anyway. The sector mechanics are a bad fix for the problem they have, the combat is uninteresting, the diplomacy doesn't work that well, the AI is bad, and the game is super easy.
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Jun 5, 2016 11:43
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Drone posted:I don't think you understand what fundamental design means. HoI3 is great though.
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Jun 5, 2016 12:02
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ThaumPenguin posted:What's wrong with tile management? It's a) a lot of micro, b) not interesting and c) almost completely delegated to the sector AI unless you're a masochist with a fetish for min-maxing. The big headline problem is that it doesn't create interesting gameplay. Once you leave the (very) early game, minerals stop being a limiting factor, so the only choice is "do I want energy or research more right now". The sector development focus buttons are about the maximum level of detail the player needs to plan on, but actually implementing that plan requires a lot of uninteresting busywork, either on the player's part or the sector AI's. And I'm a big Victoria fan so, y'know, if I think a system serves no purpose beyond tying up CPU cycles then something is probably wrong. It doesn't even function as a simulation. Panzeh posted:I don't think Stellaris is fundamentally terribly interesting. In fact it's a very rote copy of other space 4x games in many many ways but done worse. Yes, there are random species but it doesn't amount to much- the bonuses aren't terribly significant one way or the other and most of them tend to not be very interesting anyway. The sector mechanics are a bad fix for the problem they have, the combat is uninteresting, the diplomacy doesn't work that well, the AI is bad, and the game is super easy. Species generation is something I actually like. It's true, the traits don't amount to much and I'd much prefer a game where different races played in radically different ways, but the species creator and genetic engineering are where I've had the most fun with the game. I like that they've at least tried to keep traits big and chunky and discrete, even if it doesn't really work.
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Jun 5, 2016 12:33
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DDRJAKE could have very easily taken all of south and central America if he'd focused on artillery instead of tanks as he faced absolutely no armor units until the us intervened. He actually played very suboptimal.
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Jun 5, 2016 13:10
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Also, not using artillery, in mountaineous terrain, against heavily entrenched soldiers? Buh?
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Jun 5, 2016 13:17
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Drone posted:I don't think you understand what fundamental design means. More specifically, there's the tile and resource system being kind of generic and is everything when you are on your first 5 planets and nothing for any bigger because of how the economy shakes up, as already described. You don't assign planets to a sector as an equal of management because you want them to be stewarded and built up, you do it because you literally don't give a gently caress what it supplies. For min maxing there's been a few strategies shaken out that mean some ethos are clear winners and some are clear losers. Except by min maxing I mean for resources, and resources quickly stop mattering, so I don't know if that means every ethos wins or every ethos loses. The ship designer aspect of ship combat is a total trainwreck. 2 out of 4 ship classes are worthless because even after nerfing, corvettes still have best in game damage mitigation because of the attempt to add flavor to each of the classes. Battleships get an honorable mention because of their ability to field the most special large slot weapons in the most efficient way. It needs a fairly substantial redesign to spread the love to different classes. Or just get rid of the useless classes. Or just scrap the whole tire fire and replace it with a fleet designer out of HOI because making a good ship designer combat system is crazy hard. I like Stellaris but I wouldn't be in a hurry to recommend it to anyone dropping by the thread asking if its any good.
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Jun 5, 2016 15:32
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Antti posted:This deserves more love. My favourite part was how the ability to easily and quickly view formations and resources in the fronts meant the Joint Staff was constantly tempted to meddle with and micromanage the theatre commands. It really is an interesting read, I was hoping more people would check it out instead of throwing up strawmen about how we're trying to compare Stellaris to EU4 4 years into its development. My favorite part was how the Soviet theater organically ended up getting suspicious as gently caress of the Allies zedprime posted:The ship designer aspect of ship combat is a total trainwreck. 2 out of 4 ship classes are worthless because even after nerfing, corvettes still have best in game damage mitigation because of the attempt to add flavor to each of the classes. Battleships get an honorable mention because of their ability to field the most special large slot weapons in the most efficient way. It needs a fairly substantial redesign to spread the love to different classes. Or just get rid of the useless classes. Or just scrap the whole tire fire and replace it with a fleet designer out of HOI because making a good ship designer combat system is crazy hard. Star Ruler 2 has a ship builder and combat system that blows Stellaris the gently caress out of the water, among other things, so it's so sad that gets almost no love in these times of turmoil
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Jun 5, 2016 16:13
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Sword of the Stars 2 has more interesting ships and ftl mechanics than Stellaris
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Jun 5, 2016 16:15
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:It really is an interesting read, I was hoping more people would check it out instead of throwing up strawmen about how we're trying to compare Stellaris to EU4 4 years into its development. My favorite part was how the Soviet theater organically ended up getting suspicious as gently caress of the Allies I loving hate Star Ruler 2's ship builder, to be honest. Can't even really use downloaded designs either since they're either end-game or there's such a specific tech window where they'd be good.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:16
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If it had a bigger community it might actually have good ships uploaded. I recommend when you're starting out and learning the builder to just use the random design button until you find a design that looks cool and then just change the weapon type to whatever you want. There is alot of neat stuff going on in that game.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:19
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it's kinda hilarious how paradox and CA fans go through the same mental process: Game is yet to be released - "yeah of course the game will be released full of bugs, it's completely expected that it'll get patched and developed over time" Game announces DLC even before it's released - "it's their standard pratice, it allows them to create more revenue and stimulates development even after the game is officialy released" Game is actually released - "this is a buggy piece of poo poo i am completely dissapointed with the company how coul they do this to us when, why would i play this when i have **insert game with literal years of patches, DLC and mods** in my library?" DLC is announced - "and of course the DLC comes out before the game is even playable! What a loving rip off"
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Jun 5, 2016 16:26
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My biggest problem with Stellaris, the thing that bored me to tears and made me stop playing, was that I got in a big war and found it was really frustrating and boring rather than challenging or fun. I had a bigger, better fleet than any of my opponents but I was limited to hyperdrive lanes and they were warp FTL, so instead of actually getting in any battles I was just chasing them around my empire the whole time. When I did manage to get into the same system as them, their FTL spooled up faster than I could cross the system to reach them and initiate combat, and any time I did manage to initiate combat they would just emergency-jump away, which eventually destroyed their fleet through emergency jump damage, but meant that I didn't get the warscore for destroying their fleet in a battle since they didn't die in the battle, they died retreating and apparently that didn't count. And by the time I finished reducing that fleet through emergency jump damage to a size that I could hunt it down with a smaller, faster fleet, they had built another one the same size as the first so I had to begin the same repetitive chase all over again. Each individual piece of what I've just described isn't necessarily game-breaking on its own. I like the idea of different FTL mechanics. I like the idea of being able to raid enemy systems and avoid bigger fleets. I like the idea of being able to emergency jump away from combat. I like the idea of the enemy replacing lost fleets. But when all combined together in something as fundamental to the game as fighting a war, these individual elements combined made it incredibly frustrating and not fun at all. Also the fact that the war happened because every empire had like -400 threat with me because I fought two wars over the course of a hundred years, the first time annexing a two-planet empire and the second time taking a couple systems from someone who had declared war on my vassal.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:26
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corn in the bible posted:Sword of the Stars 2 has more interesting ships and ftl mechanics than Stellaris on the other hand Stellaris is an actual game where disapointing ship designs and ftl mechanics can be used, while the spetacular ship and races of SOTS2 might as well not exist because the game only exists in a plane of existence that didn't reach planet earth.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:28
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Mans posted:it's kinda hilarious how paradox and CA fans go through the same mental process: I think your first two caricatures are quoting a different demographic from your last two caricatures.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:33
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Drone posted:I don't think you understand what fundamental design means. What missing features does Victoria 2 need to be good?
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Jun 5, 2016 16:52
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PleasingFungus posted:What missing features does Victoria 2 need to be good? an understandable economy
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Jun 5, 2016 16:55
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Groogy posted:Those don't build armies because they literally don't have the manpower to build armies. El Salvador didn't seem to have any trouble when it took them over.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:56
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CK2 was poorly balanced and, as someone else said, basically White Christian Hunting and Feasting Simulator 2000 at launch. Most Paradox threads goons don't remember this because we were all using CK2+ at the time, which made the game indescribably more playable and interesting. The base game wasn't actually all that good until Old Gods. Stellaris is the same - there are already mods to ameliorate many of the issues that have been raised in the last page or so. Expanded War Demands and Enhanced AI in particular make war a lot better. It's not the best thing in the world to have to rely on mods, obviously. It is usual for Paradox though - EU4 didn't need mods but that had more to do with EU3 having plenty of existing content that just needed some better mechanics.
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Jun 5, 2016 16:56
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Jazerus posted:CK2 was poorly balanced and, as someone else said, basically White Christian Hunting and Feasting Simulator 2000 at launch. Most Paradox threads goons don't remember this because we were all using CK2+ at the time, which made the game indescribably more playable and interesting. The base game wasn't actually all that good until Old Gods. at least you had an incentive to keep playing CK2 because of the character system and drama it created. there's really no real reason to play stellaris for more than 150-200 ingame years (maybe not even that) before it just stops completely
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Jun 5, 2016 16:59
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PleasingFungus posted:What missing features does Victoria 2 need to be good?
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Jun 5, 2016 16:59
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corn in the bible posted:Sword of the Stars 2 has more interesting ships and ftl mechanics than Stellaris Whatever else SotS was you can't deny it was interesting. Stellaris is just super bland.
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Jun 5, 2016 17:08
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Jazerus posted:CK2 was poorly balanced and, as someone else said, basically White Christian Hunting and Feasting Simulator 2000 at launch. Most Paradox threads goons don't remember this because we were all using CK2+ at the time, which made the game indescribably more playable and interesting. The base game wasn't actually all that good until Old Gods. CK2 has never simulated non-christians well (not that it's super accurate for anywhere outside of certain regions of northeastern france, either!). I don't think that's actually a problem for a game called 'crusader kings 2', though.  I played CK2 without any mods at launch and for some time afterward, and it was tons of fun. The only real balance issues I remember them changing were 'assassination is very strong' (which i miss, honestly), and 'it's possible to breed ubermensch', which I generally didn't bother with, since i preferred to get alliances and land through marriage instead. I would absolutely have recommended CK2 to other people at launch, whereas I'm not sure I would do so now. Old Gods added more interaction with the incomprehensible tech system, perpetual spamming of viking raids, and the first early-start bookmark. Also, IIRC, it caused catholicism to devolve into a constant spiral of heresies and chaos. I picked it up at the time and played around with it for a while, but I wouldn't describe it as a great step forward for the game - what exactly did you like about it?
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Jun 5, 2016 17:09
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zedprime posted:Or just get rid of the useless classes. Or just scrap the whole tire fire and replace it with a fleet designer out of HOI because making a good ship designer combat system is crazy hard. No way, it's gonna be cool once it's balanced
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Jun 5, 2016 17:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I think Drone is talking about vanilla Victoria 2, with the two DLC's proving the game was fundamentally fine all along. This. Victoria 2 with the expansions is a good game. HOI3 with all the expansions is still a big turd. Also the comparison between Paradox and Creative Assembly has been brought up before and the two developers aren't really comparable at all beyond "both of them make strategy games I guess"
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Jun 5, 2016 17:13
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Enjoy posted:No way, it's gonna be cool once it's balanced
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Jun 5, 2016 17:24
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zedprime posted:I like Stellaris so I think it would be really cool if it was a better game sometime before 2018. It's good that we can tell at a glance the ship's size and tech level. If the ship designations were random words like the class names it'd be terrible.
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Jun 5, 2016 17:30
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How about stop getting mad at video games, don't buy the game and wait for like a few weeks to hear opinions from more than just a few streamers who are absolute dogshit garbage at the game anyway? Quill18: "Why don't they attack AI is loving stupid" *did not set offensive frontline*
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Jun 5, 2016 17:42
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Mans posted:it's kinda hilarious how paradox and CA fans go through the same mental process: That's a poor comparison, because Total Warhammer had a stellar release and Attila was also great despite optimization problems and I never saw anyone talk about the lack of content in any of those games. Empire and Rome 2 were the only TW games that were "buggy-piece-of-poo poo" on release and I've been playing this series since Rome 1. Also Paradox doesn't do pre-release DLC like CA does, which is the crux of pre-release criticism aimed at recent Total Wars. It is also disconnected from reality, both CK2 and EU4 were well-received on release in a way Stellaris simply wasn't (of course, some of their DLCs didn't have the same level of quality control). The first time anyone has made the comparison with earlier games with years of content was with Stellaris' release.
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Jun 5, 2016 17:45
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Victoria 2 is an example of Paradox fixing their games to work smoothly now? Strange opinions all up in this thread. I can see why people like v2 but it is the definition of a seriously flawed game which no amount of patching will fix, because none of the expansions are able to change the inscrutable and chaotic economy which pervades all the game's systems. You could argue this makes for a good and even fun simulation but it's difficult to defend as game design. I don't think there is much difference between v2 and hoi3, both are confusing bloated messes that expansions and patching have just been putting thicker coats of paint on. The only difference is that uncontrollable chaos fits with the v2 theme of radical social change which improves the experience a bit.
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Jun 5, 2016 17:56
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Victoria 2 is an example of Paradox fixing their games to work smoothly now? Strange opinions all up in this thread. Victoria 2 is fundamentally perfect
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Jun 5, 2016 18:03
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Victoria 2 is art, a scathing rebuke of capitalism. The economy is a core part of that.
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Jun 5, 2016 18:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Victoria 2 is art, a scathing rebuke of capitalism. The economy is a core part of that. I guess in the same way Stellaris conveys space exploration will not solve our race's ennui and existential despair 
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Jun 5, 2016 18:12
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I guess in the same way Stellaris conveys space exploration will not solve our race's ennui and existential despair
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Jun 5, 2016 18:18
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ArchangeI posted:There are already plenty of indications that HoI4 will launch with severe AI and balance issues. How hard those are to fix remains to be seen. I haven't kept up with the HOI4 pre-release content - what issues are you talking about?
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Jun 5, 2016 18:28
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double nine posted:I haven't kept up with the HOI4 pre-release content - what issues are you talking about? The tactical and strategic AI of the press release version seems to be a bit broken, leading to such fun things as 500km long single provice wide advances into enemy territory without being cut of by the enemy and France abandoning the Maginot line among other fun tidbits, like Italy generally being able to conquer South France and the UK not guaranteeing the independence of certain countries (Benelux) from the beginning, leading to the possibility that Germany can annex Belgium without fighting Britain or France over it.
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Jun 5, 2016 18:32
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double nine posted:I haven't kept up with the HOI4 pre-release content - what issues are you talking about? The AI never sends Einstein back in time to kill Hitler.
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Jun 5, 2016 18:32
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