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Albino Squirrel posted:Oh man, anaesthesia attracts the enthusiasts like you wouldn't believe. One of my surgeon friends had to go searching for the anaesthetist because they couldn't find him for the start of surgery, only to find him in the OR bathroom, unconscious and tied off with a needle in his arm. lots of programs also have an anonymity component for the treatment of their physicians (including for more common stuff like mental health treatments for things like depression) so that there's no hesitation re: potentially screwing up your career later from records stating that you're a recovering alcoholic or w/e
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Jun 2, 2016 03:06
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OwlFancier posted:That's a bit odd because where I live I think just about any pharmacy will accept drugs for disposal. That's actually a huge problem in the water for a lot of areas, especially when it comes to hormones. Entire species of fish are being wiped out because estrogen in the water (often from birth control) is turning all of their babies female. No males means no new babies and the species is gone forever.
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Jun 2, 2016 03:14
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Considering she had enough painkillers stashed to depopulate an entire wildlife park full of elephants I'm pretty glad we took them to the pharmacy then when she died.
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Jun 2, 2016 03:22
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Confirmed Prince died from opioid OD. Hopefully that will galvanize some action, and possibly pro-legalization/MMJ as an alternative.
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Jun 2, 2016 18:56
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Boywhiz88 posted:Confirmed Prince died from opioid OD. Hopefully that will galvanize some action, and possibly pro-legalization/MMJ as an alternative. Nah. It's gonna be easier to send his prescribing doctors to jail.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:01
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Lyesh posted:It's extremely, extremely regional and varies by doctor, etc. I know plenty of people who've gone through pretty traumatic surgery (myself included), who got like a two-week supply of vicodin AFTER we complained about the pain with a note that the surgeon would not prescribe more. In the UK you wouldn't have even got that. Barring exceptional circumstances no-one goes home from hospital with anything stronger than codeine/tramadol, not even after major surgery. The prevailing idea is that if you are still in severe enough pain to need strong opioids then either something is wrong or you're not well enough to go home yet.
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Jun 2, 2016 19:22
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My Imaginary GF posted:Nah. It's gonna be easier to send his prescribing doctors to jail. Good, gently caress every last one of those drug dealers disguised as medical professionals right off to jail for the murderers they are.
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Jun 3, 2016 03:15
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He was just MIGFing. Short of real smoking gun negligence evidence--which you aren't going to get out of a celebrity bunker often--opiates for chronic pain, while a demonstrably bad option, isn't itself illegal. Edit: didn't know it was fentanyl, that's more egregious but not sure if that's beyond the pale legally speaking or not. pangstrom fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Jun 3, 2016 |
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Jun 3, 2016 12:44
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pangstrom posted:He was just MIGFing. Short of real smoking gun negligence evidence--which you aren't going to get out of a celebrity bunker often--opiates for chronic pain, while a demonstrably bad option, isn't itself illegal. Unless Minnesota doesn't have an effective Prescription Drug Monitoring Program, there's a real good chance that all of his recent prescribers and pharmacists will, at best, be looking for new careers very soon if they didn't clearly demonstrate due diligence. If you're not familiar with Prescription Drug Monitoring Programs, they're databases that allow healthcare providers to see all the controlled substance dispensings made to patients. They show you what it was, how much they got, where they got it, when it was filled and who wrote the prescription. Healthcare professionals are now required to consult their state PDMP databases and evaluate their patient's controlled substance fill history before issuing a prescription or dispensing a medication. You're supposed to be looking for things like early fills, duplicate therapies, multiple doctors, multiple pharmacies, potentially fatal drug interactions, etc. But of course a lot of providers don't do that because they're stupid, lazy or greedy. Because it was specifically fentanyl that killed Prince, it could also be that he obtained some "Street Norco" that's basically fentanyl citrate in a pill. It's a real bad idea to take black-market fentanyl orally. Fentanyl doses are so small you need high-quality properly-maintained equipment to properly dose it. People making Street Norco don't have such equipment, they're eyeballing that poo poo. If they eyeball too much you die.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:56
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Sounds great but so far the doctors who have gone to jail for opiate prescriptions are Dr. Tseng and... nobody else as far as I know.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:00
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pangstrom posted:Sounds great but so far the doctors who have gone to jail for opiate prescriptions are Dr. Tseng and... nobody else as far as I know. Every flood starts as a single drop of rain.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:10
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Well 50ish people a die a day in the US from opiate ODs so without evidence that he was awful beyond what we already know I'm not going to bet that Prince's doctor is going to be the second drop. It seems Prince was less a "junkie" and more backed into it later in life with chronic hip pain. Those stories can and often do end the same way but that's a lot more cover for his doctor.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:24
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Subvisual Haze posted:The CDC's new recommended guidelines on opioid prescribing are really good. They're so good that I wish a lot of their points weren't just recommendations, but actually had some legal limits to reinforce them. http://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/pdf/pdo_checklist-a.pdf The problem is that the First Nations and Inuit Health Branch (FNIHB), the organization which provides medication coverage to Canada's native people*, considers 200 mg to be a limit and is lowering coverage stepwise; it'll be a hard cap of 200 mg coverage by later this year. So even if you need to prescribe 250 mg - say, in someone whose previous doctor had foolishly upped their dose - you can't. The 'watchful dose' is supposed to trigger you to consider red flags, look for alternate medications, and refer to specialists if necessary, not be an absolute limit to the amount of opioids you can prescribe. I know this because one of the doctors I share an office with was one of the people who wrote the guidelines, and that's what she loving told me. Setting hard legal limits on medical care isn't great, because there are ALWAYS exceptions, and my career is based on treating those exceptions. There's also nothing in the guidelines about some fairly simple protective measures, like limiting people's medication to once-weekly or even once-daily pickups; in my experience that goes much further in preventing overdose than many other measures. Also, suggesting a referral to a pain specialist at >90 mg of morphine seems really low, unless pain specialists are much more available and have quicker referrals in the US than in Canada. *based, incidentally, on the 'medicine chest' provision in the treaties in which the local first nations people ceded land in the West. This has been interpreted to mean 'we will pay for your medicine,' and now we have a barely-functioning government department that does that!
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Jun 3, 2016 15:29
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pangstrom posted:It seems Prince was less a "junkie" and more backed into it later in life with chronic hip pain. Those stories can and often do end the same way but that's a lot more cover for his doctor. AmericanOpioidEpidemic.txt quote:Well 50ish people a die a day in the US from opiate ODs so without evidence that he was awful beyond what we already know I'm not going to bet that Prince's doctor is going to be the second drop. I think people who aren't actively involved with regulators in the field right now are underestimating what's about to happen. There's a regulatory hurricane making landfall. If you haven't already nailed down your poo poo you're hosed. Preventing prescription opioid abuse is now one of the most important public policy objectives in the country. Everyone is changing their stances to reflect that. Regulators are growing bigger balls and sharper teeth. The problem with bureaucracies is they move slowly. Providers killing their patients right now are totally hosed, they just won't find out for a few years until they've gotten around to mining the dispensing data and all the paperwork gets done.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:07
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Spoondick posted:Every flood starts as a single drop of rain. For some reason I'm more reminded of Abacus Federal Savings Bank, the only bank indicted in connection to the 2008 mortgage crisis. I suppose they were cleared of all charges, though.
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Jun 4, 2016 09:45
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I may be wrong about the impending prescriber apocalypse. The problem is so pervasive that if you withdrew every medical license over inappropriate opioid prescriptions we wouldn't have many doctors left to practice afterwards. That fact may be the only thing that gets these shitheads off the hook, but I'd still like to see them aggressively prosecute doctors who've already had their licenses taken. I mean look at this goddamned poo poo and tell me it isn't murder.
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Jun 4, 2016 14:19
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Spoondick posted:I may be wrong about the impending prescriber apocalypse. The problem is so pervasive that if you withdrew every medical license over inappropriate opioid prescriptions we wouldn't have many doctors left to practice afterwards. That fact may be the only thing that gets these shitheads off the hook, but I'd still like to see them aggressively prosecute doctors who've already had their licenses taken. I mean look at this goddamned poo poo and tell me it isn't murder. I doubt we'll see blanket revocation of licenses. However, I can see blanket threats of revocation of licenses. As in, "hey if you knock this off you might pay a few fines and we'll be cool. If you don't you aren't going to stay a doctor long. Got it?"
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Jun 4, 2016 14:36
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The Tseng decision was huge. Most of her criminal prescribing practices occurred between 2006 and 2010 and she just got convicted of murder in late 2015. Hopefully initial appeals will get slapped down, the precedent sticks and DA's can make me happy by sticking these assholes in jail. The medical boards have already done most of the heavy lifting, they just don't have the authority to imprison people who are clearly a threat to society.
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Jun 4, 2016 15:24
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Spoondick posted:I may be wrong about the impending prescriber apocalypse. The problem is so pervasive that if you withdrew every medical license over inappropriate opioid prescriptions we wouldn't have many doctors left to practice afterwards. That fact may be the only thing that gets these shitheads off the hook, but I'd still like to see them aggressively prosecute doctors who've already had their licenses taken. I mean look at this goddamned poo poo and tell me it isn't murder.  "It's not the worst I've seen, either; I wound up seeing someone whose previous family doctor had him on a combination of weekly oxycodone and 500 dilaudid 8 mg a month, 'for breakthrough.' His oral morphine equivalent dose was 4464 mg a day. FOUR THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTY FOUR MILLIGRAMS. My new rule is that if you have more opioids than salt in your diet, you almost certainly have a problem. It's going to continue being a problem until a) pain management and addiction are taught, and taught well, in medical school and family medicine residencies, and b) the croakers either retire, die, or are imprisoned.
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Jun 4, 2016 15:52
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Albino Squirrel posted:I don't know if that's homicide, if only because there's no clear intent to harm the patients. It is criminally negligent practice, however. "This guy reported he had a two week prescription of oxycodone stolen. I'll give him 50 days this time! That's it right there. Medical professionals are not laypeople. Medical professionals are specifically trained and licensed, and their services are sought out by patients because they are explicitly expected to know this poo poo. It is their very job to know this poo poo. Every prescriber should know that opioids are addictive, patients actively seek out prescriptions specifically for drug diversion, and opioids are lethal in high doses and in combination with other CNS depressants. If they're not familiar with the effect a potentially fatal medication therapy is going to have on a patient, do some loving research or do something else or face the consequences when your fuckup kills someone. The reality is usually not negligence. It is greed. Take Dr. Neuschatz from one of my posts above. Dr. Neuschatz had to have been fully aware of the physiological effects of the medicines he was prescribing. If he was not, he was not fit to practice medicine. He had to have known that you should, you know, loving evaluate the patient and review their clinical history before you start making it rain oxycodone and benzos. He intentionally ignored the harm his prescriptions might cause. He did this because of money. Lots and lots of money. You can squeeze in an awful lot of patients if you barely even talk to them and end up thousands of dollars richer at the end of the day. If you're splitting hairs over whether or not that constitutes murder, the dude should be in jail anyways. Spoondick fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 4, 2016 |
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Jun 4, 2016 17:26
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:Re: wisdom teeth chat: I think it's genetic. I had surgery about a decade ago. The morphine drip was nice, but all oxycodone did was make me constipated, I stopped taking it almost immediately. Benzos on the other hand, I loving LOVED them from the start, but was very conscious of that and tapered off immediately. To the extent that to this ay I'm always super anxious to the point that general practitioners will (at unrelated visits) unprompted offer to write me Valium prescriptions and I have to turn them down flat each time.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:10
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Guavanaut posted:The cause of the shift to heroin appears to be related to the closing down of the pill mills that were flooding oxy into communities in the first place. And the root cause of the pill mills was deliberate pressure by the people that stood to profit from sales. I know this was way back at the beginning of the thread but this article is in my humble opinion required reading for anyone interested. Of course it's not up to date and mainly focuses only on the genesis of the problem. But people need to know how we got here. In a way every single modern addict can trace their addiction back to "legally" provided opiates. Even if they went straight to H, the reason they were exposed to it in the first place, the reason that scene existed at all, is partially but effectively explained here.
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Jun 6, 2016 00:46
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smg77 posted:Wasn't it connected to Prohibition? Yes, it was connected to alcohol prohibition, and the entire progressive era food and drug reform movement. The original federal drug enforcement bureaucracy was part of the Bureau of Prohibition. The Harrison Act was passed just before WW1, but only clamped down on hard after alcohol prohibition kicked in. After alcohol prohibition got going, a lot of people turned to other ways to get high and organized crime stepped right up to fill the expanding market. I suggest Johann Hari's recent book, Chasing the Scream as a decent introduction to how the mess got rolling.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:53
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Beaters posted:Yes, it was connected to alcohol prohibition, and the entire progressive era food and drug reform movement. The original federal drug enforcement bureaucracy was part of the Bureau of Prohibition. The Harrison Act was passed just before WW1, but only clamped down on hard after alcohol prohibition kicked in. After alcohol prohibition got going, a lot of people turned to other ways to get high and organized crime stepped right up to fill the expanding market. I suggest Johann Hari's recent book, Chasing the Scream as a decent introduction to how the mess got rolling. This is an excellent read, and the book includes an intriguing depiction of Joe McCarthy at the end...
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Jun 6, 2016 05:27
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The_Book_Of_Harry posted:This is an excellent read, and the book includes an intriguing depiction of Joe McCarthy at the end... McCarthy's morphine (and allegedly cocaine) addiction would've ended his career if he'd been exposed. All the lives and careers that were destroyed by his hysterical red-baiting could've been spared if someone had outed him or the DC pharmacy that supplied him until he died.
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Jun 6, 2016 08:49
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My dad has been taking prescription Fentanyl for years, and the first thing he told me when he started taking them was a story of a couple teenage girls who got hold of their mother's patches and decided to lick one of them, and died very quickly afterwards to really slam it in my head how serious this stuff could be if misused, so to see/hear that Fentanyl is becoming (and in some places it seems already is) the next big drug abuse thing is completely mind-blowing to me. 
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Jun 6, 2016 13:00
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It's the same as with all these synthetic cannabinoids that cause seizures and can actually cause full blown physical dependence. The past century of opioids is a story of "this is terrible, ban it" followed by something even stronger hitting the market and being taken up no matter how terrible it is because of lack of alternatives, followed by "this one is even more terrible, ban it, we're super serious", rinse, repeat. For all the talk of "doctors who overprescribe opioids should be thrown in jail" itt, Dr. John Marks's scheme of prescribing standard doses of heroin to addicts proved to save a ton of lives and drove all the dealers out of the area, and the reaction of outraged moralists and the US Embassy in London was to force a change in the law to shut his clinics down. Any restrictions on prescription law should definitely have clear exceptions for addiction treatment, which has been driven too far in the other direction.
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Jun 6, 2016 13:23
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I'm not out for physician blood, so long as they're actually practicing medicine. I'm more about the doctors who spend 75 seconds of a 300 second visit cutting prescriptions for OxyContin 80mg #360 1 or 2 6 times daily as needed for pain and Alprazolam 2mg #360 1 to 2 every 4 hours as needed for anxiety without checking to see that that patient is also getting oxycodone 30mg #240 and lorazepam 2mg #90 from their PCP. Oops patient died. It's like handing a suicidal man a loaded gun that you purchased especially for him. You even glued felt to the muzzle so it feels so soft and relaxing against his temple. You hand him the gun, and tell him you'll give him another one in 30 days if he still needs it. Sure, you could have told him to get help instead, but he seemed really interested on getting that gun from you and he was paying good. And you're doing this in a professional capacity as a highly trained, licensed suicide prevention specialist with ample knowledge and resources to intervene.
Spoondick fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 16:07
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think it's genetic. I had surgery about a decade ago. The morphine drip was nice, but all oxycodone did was make me constipated, I stopped taking it almost immediately. Yeah, I'm the same way. I had various opiate pills prescribed after injuries or operations over like a 20 year period  and they never did poo poo for me except make me tired and make it hard to poo poo. They were almost worthless as painkillers and gave me no pleasure at all. I can imagine people going, "I had Vicodin once and it didn't do anything, these addicts must just be huge assholes to break the law just to chug these stupid things," when in reality they had a completely different reaction to the same drug.
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Jun 6, 2016 16:30
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sean10mm posted:Yeah, I'm the same way. I had various opiate pills prescribed after injuries or operations over like a 20 year period I got Vicodin when I broke my elbow one time. I took it for about a week. It didn't do much for the pain directly. It mostly made the world feel like it was moving in slow motion while my memory quit working well. I still felt the pain but didn't notice it all that much. So I guess it sort of worked? I hated that feeling though and it made it hard to do pretty much anything. People would be like "I saw you!" and I'd be like "sorry, don't remember because drugs."
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Jun 6, 2016 16:32
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Total aside, but there is a pattern in people with relatively "good sobriety" (in AA parlance) where if they relapse with a different drug it's in part because they tell themselves "well I'm not a <different drug> guy I'm a <drug I had a problem with> guy." Total aside because if a drug does nothing for you it does nothing for you, not calling that into question.
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Jun 6, 2016 16:37
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Why isn't there stronger regulation of opioids in the US? I assume that you guys have special prescription systems for scheduled drugs, just like any other country. Can't you just limit opiates to only be prescribable for specific diagnosis and only in small amounts?
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Jun 6, 2016 19:45
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Possibly because America has an enormous for-profit medical and pharmaceutical industry which are heavily in bed with both each other and the government.
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Jun 6, 2016 20:44
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OwlFancier posted:Possibly because America has an enormous for-profit medical and pharmaceutical industry which are heavily in bed with both each other and the government. yep. becoming a legal drug manufacturer is intensely lucrative, especially if you can patent your product
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Jun 6, 2016 20:54
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Spoondick posted:I'm not out for physician blood, so long as they're actually practicing medicine. I'm more about the doctors who spend 75 seconds of a 300 second visit cutting prescriptions for OxyContin 80mg #360 1 or 2 6 times daily as needed for pain and Alprazolam 2mg #360 1 to 2 every 4 hours as needed for anxiety without checking to see that that patient is also getting oxycodone 30mg #240 and lorazepam 2mg #90 from their PCP. Oops patient died. It's like handing a suicidal man a loaded gun that you purchased especially for him. You even glued felt to the muzzle so it feels so soft and relaxing against his temple. You hand him the gun, and tell him you'll give him another one in 30 days if he still needs it. Sure, you could have told him to get help instead, but he seemed really interested on getting that gun from you and he was paying good. And you're doing this in a professional capacity as a highly trained, licensed suicide prevention specialist with ample knowledge and resources to intervene. That's not a great analogy. The people who want opioids from doctors will do everything in their power to trick them into making the prescription, not to mention threatening to sue/ruin their reputation/otherwise make their lives miserable if they refuse. Plus telling them to 'go get help' is not very helpful if the help isn't available, and simply sending them away empty handed isn't going to break their addiction, just push them towards street dealers. Yes, there are plenty of doctors who recklessly prescribe opioids. But actually the ones doing the most harm aren't the ones prescribing to addicts. Sure they might go away and overdose, but they would almost certainly have got their fix from somewhere. The doctors who are doing the most harm are the ones prescribing shitloads of painkillers to that aren't necessary for your average minor surgery, and getting people hooked on them in the first place. Creating addicts is where doctors fail far more than enabling them.
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Jun 6, 2016 22:06
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Great White Hope posted:My dad has been taking prescription Fentanyl for years, and the first thing he told me when he started taking them was a story of a couple teenage girls who got hold of their mother's patches and decided to lick one of them, and died very quickly afterwards to really slam it in my head how serious this stuff could be if misused, so to see/hear that Fentanyl is becoming (and in some places it seems already is) the next big drug abuse thing is completely mind-blowing to me. Nothing against your Dad, but that sounds like an urban legend to me. But yes, it's very dangerous stuff.
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Jun 6, 2016 23:53
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waitwhatno posted:Why isn't there stronger regulation of opioids in the US? I assume that you guys have special prescription systems for scheduled drugs, just like any other country. Can't you just limit opiates to only be prescribable for specific diagnosis and only in small amounts? Most of the strongest opioids (morphine, methadone, meperidine, hydromorphone, oxycodone, etc.) have a Schedule II classification, and can't prescribed over the phone; only by a written prescription. Doctors can't put refills on them, so a new script has to be written each time. Some states require them to be written in triplicate for careful record-keeping. Quantities are supposed to be kept to a minimum, and never more than a 30-day supply. Doctors have discretion to prescribe them as they see fit. But of course, that doesn't stop a determined patient from seeing multiple doctors or supplementing his legal scripts by buying extra pills on the side. Where there's a will, there's always a way. Pharmacies have to keep special records, including a perpetual inventory of their stock. When I was a pharmacy tech, it was designed like a checkbook. New stock is immediately added to the running total when it arrives, and the amounts dispensed in prescriptions are subtracted after being filled. Everything's computerized now, but imaginative methods of diversion continue. There's always a way to get around the rules. Always.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:16
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jabby posted:That's not a great analogy. The people who want opioids from doctors will do everything in their power to trick them into making the prescription, not to mention threatening to sue/ruin their reputation/otherwise make their lives miserable if they refuse. Plus telling them to 'go get help' is not very helpful if the help isn't available, and simply sending them away empty handed isn't going to break their addiction, just push them towards street dealers. Yes. Those tricky addicts hoodwinked all these unsuspecting doctors into writing them lethal prescriptions. If only doctors were given some sort of training on how to determine if a patient requires treatment or not and how to provide treatment without killing patients. If only there were resources they could utilize to independently and objectively verify their patients clinical histories. If only these doctors didn't have to book 45 patients and take on 30 more walk-ins every day to make 7 figures a year. If only... we could have saved so many lives. Granted, addiction therapy in America needs a shitload of work and it's difficult for people suffering from addiction to get competent help. But. You sure as gently caress aren't helping by giving addicts exactly what they want, free of charge, plus refills. We tried that. Hundreds of thousands are dying. I'm not convinced an addict is better off with a doctor than a street dealer given the number of people prescription drugs are killing. The most insidious aspect of the whole thing is that a lot of prescription drug addicts either don't realize how addicted they are or feel safe or legitimized in their addiction because they're assuming that since their doctor is a trained professional their dosages and medication combinations must be safe, when in fact their doctor isn't paying attention because they don't give a flying gently caress if their patients live or die. I've been on the frontlines of this bullshit for 10 years now. You know what you say when someone asks you to do something you objectively know is unethical or illegal? No. You loving say no. You say no a lot. I've said no to tens of thousands of people. You know how many of them have gotten me in trouble or ruined my reputation? Not a single loving one of them. Everything goes to poo poo if you don't say no. Spoondick fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 03:46
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Spoondick posted:But. You sure as gently caress aren't helping by giving addicts exactly what they want, free of charge, plus refills. We tried that. Opioid over-prescription is an issue. Giving someone 60 days of high potency narcotics in one container because of minor surgery is an issue. But 'giving addicts exactly what they want, free of charge' works better than any of the alternatives tried to date. It's a shame that's not what they're actually doing.
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Jun 7, 2016 08:59
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Guavanaut posted:Yes, we did. And it worked great. The only people who had a problem with it were handwringing moralists, out of pocket street dealers, and people who actually wished for death to addicts but didn't have the balls to say so out loud. quote:Overdose deaths involving prescription opioids have quadrupled since 1999, and so have sales of these prescription drugs. From 1999 to 2014, more than 165,000 people have died in the U.S. from overdoses related to prescription opioids. quote:Opioid over-prescription is an issue. Giving someone 60 days of high potency narcotics in one container because of minor surgery is an issue. But 'giving addicts exactly what they want, free of charge' works better than any of the alternatives tried to date. It's a shame that's not what they're actually doing. I want addicts to get help. We are not doing enough to help them. I'm in favor of providing methadone and buprenorphone therapies for opioid addicts so long as 1. Clinical data shows efficacy of the therapies. and 2. The people providing the therapy are doing so in a legal, safe manner within established medical practices. I'm a real big fan of evidence-based medicine. We can do some real amazing poo poo with it. I like what works. I don't like what doesn't work. What doesn't work is when doctors claim to be practicing medicine but instead give lethal prescriptions to patients because that's what the patients are asking for. I'm not some handwringing moralist. I want these loving murderers walking around in broad daylight held accountable. Dr. Neuschatz killed 13 people in that complaint I posted alone. For every death listed in the complaint there are 10 to 20 more because of poor documentation or other circumstances preventing the board from bringing them up as evidence. The motherfucker's practice was only open 3 years. There are thousands of doctors who did this. People have a hard time wrapping their minds around the fact the opioid epidemic happened on purpose for money.
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Jun 7, 2016 14:01
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